BedDave wrote: » I'm not sure I completely get what the OP is asking, but I will be playing with a keyboard & mouse configuration. It was the hybrid option that confused me. Did he mean soft-target? Action combat with a soft-target is becoming fairly common in MMOs. The only problem with soft-target is it's not very precise. Unless you are fairly close to your target, it might select the player/mob next to your target. DPS players probably will rarely experience this problem and love soft-target. Healers don't like soft-target as much as they don't like seeing their strong heal hitting the nearly full health DPS near a Tank at 30% health. How about, borrowing from what appears to be an upcoming trend, an AI-enhanced soft-target that would take context into its target process would be nice. It could somehow figure out the Tank would be the more likely target of the large heal and soft-lock the Tank instead. If the imprecise nature of soft-target could be fixed it would be the better system. Till then, Tab-target will need to stay around in some fashion.
Caeryl wrote: » Undead Canuck wrote: » Thank you for completely agreeing with me. I don't want the game deciding where something goes. Soft targeting is expecting the game to help you play. Hehe, wouldn't that be considered pay to win? So are you just a troll or what? Soft targeting is expecting the game to be smart enough to work off what is most likely intended by the player. Tab is the epitome of the game holding your hand.
Undead Canuck wrote: » Thank you for completely agreeing with me. I don't want the game deciding where something goes. Soft targeting is expecting the game to help you play. Hehe, wouldn't that be considered pay to win?
Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s
Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes.
Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability.
Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.
Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.
Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s Then you’re absolutely full of crap.
Magic Man wrote: » yeee he's clearly trolling...I don't want to think otherwise. Never minding that and focusing on the topic, as I said before by quoting what Steven has said, we will have the option to tie the reticle to the mouse movement. Now, if we had that 'action stance' + using the tab key to select a target, that'd be beyond moronic and clunky tbh.
Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s Then you’re absolutely full of crap. You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous?
Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s Then you’re absolutely full of crap. You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous? Yes. I missed where the decimal point was. Oh wow. You on the other hand have the delusion that in 1/20th of a second you can spin around, target an enemy, and activate an attack. You either have absolutely no idea how fast that is or you’re trolling, either way you pulled it out of your ass. For the sake of context, a really good frame rate for an MMO is 80 fps. That is extremely good. You’re saying that you can spin around and attack in the time it takes for a game to render 4 frames of animation. Or get a stopwatch and time .05 seconds. Which is extremely difficult to do. Hell, on my phone I can’t even tap fast enough on one finger to start and stop a stopwatch in that time. The best I can get is .1 second. And you claim you have superhuman speed and can spin around and attack an enemy almost as fast as a computer can render it. Again, you are completely full of it. I thought you were talking about a half a second because that’s physically possible. Now it is clear you have no idea what you’re saying, and any shred of credibility you want to claim is gone. Try not to make up completely insane and impossible claims next time you want to present an argument.
CyclonusArmada wrote: » I like the old school click and move from Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. The new hybrid system will take a bit to get used to. So far I am absolutely terrible at the battle royal.
Damokles wrote: » CyclonusArmada wrote: » I like the old school click and move from Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. The new hybrid system will take a bit to get used to. So far I am absolutely terrible at the battle royal. If you like that, then you should a few videos about Lost Ark from TheLazyPeon. It looks amazing and has nice gameplay, but is sadly restricted to russia and asia. (TLP has a tutorial on how to play it no matter where you are)
Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s Then you’re absolutely full of crap. You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous? Yes. I missed where the decimal point was. Oh wow. You on the other hand have the delusion that in 1/20th of a second you can spin around, target an enemy, and activate an attack. You either have absolutely no idea how fast that is or you’re trolling, either way you pulled it out of your ass. For the sake of context, a really good frame rate for an MMO is 80 fps. That is extremely good. You’re saying that you can spin around and attack in the time it takes for a game to render 4 frames of animation. Or get a stopwatch and time .05 seconds. Which is extremely difficult to do. Hell, on my phone I can’t even tap fast enough on one finger to start and stop a stopwatch in that time. The best I can get is .1 second. And you claim you have superhuman speed and can spin around and attack an enemy almost as fast as a computer can render it. Again, you are completely full of it. I thought you were talking about a half a second because that’s physically possible. Now it is clear you have no idea what you’re saying, and any shred of credibility you want to claim is gone. Try not to make up completely insane and impossible claims next time you want to present an argument. You have a poor grasp of how combat functions if you think the enemy is somehow invisible before I decide to attack it. I’m not reacting to a spontaneously appearing mob, I turn to pop off a quick hit to the enemy behind me when I see it charging an attack, then turn back to my primary target in one fluid motion. That’s a straightforward and easy thing to do, and altogether it might take a quarter of a second after noticing it to turn, attack, and turn back. Go throw your temper tantrum elsewhere. If you wanted a discussion, then you wouldn’t be complete ignoring the fact that I gave comparable speed to a tab click. And whether you acknowledge it or not, it’ll take more time to tab target for the same process I just described than it takes for action combat. For every target swap, tab will always have an extra button to press.
wolfwood82 wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s Then you’re absolutely full of crap. You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous? Yes. I missed where the decimal point was. Oh wow. You on the other hand have the delusion that in 1/20th of a second you can spin around, target an enemy, and activate an attack. You either have absolutely no idea how fast that is or you’re trolling, either way you pulled it out of your ass. For the sake of context, a really good frame rate for an MMO is 80 fps. That is extremely good. You’re saying that you can spin around and attack in the time it takes for a game to render 4 frames of animation. Or get a stopwatch and time .05 seconds. Which is extremely difficult to do. Hell, on my phone I can’t even tap fast enough on one finger to start and stop a stopwatch in that time. The best I can get is .1 second. And you claim you have superhuman speed and can spin around and attack an enemy almost as fast as a computer can render it. Again, you are completely full of it. I thought you were talking about a half a second because that’s physically possible. Now it is clear you have no idea what you’re saying, and any shred of credibility you want to claim is gone. Try not to make up completely insane and impossible claims next time you want to present an argument. You have a poor grasp of how combat functions if you think the enemy is somehow invisible before I decide to attack it. I’m not reacting to a spontaneously appearing mob, I turn to pop off a quick hit to the enemy behind me when I see it charging an attack, then turn back to my primary target in one fluid motion. That’s a straightforward and easy thing to do, and altogether it might take a quarter of a second after noticing it to turn, attack, and turn back. Go throw your temper tantrum elsewhere. If you wanted a discussion, then you wouldn’t be complete ignoring the fact that I gave comparable speed to a tab click. And whether you acknowledge it or not, it’ll take more time to tab target for the same process I just described than it takes for action combat. For every target swap, tab will always have an extra button to press. He didn't mention invisible enemy anywhere in the quoted post. I read it, twice. You're also fabricating unmentioned details in the scenario you're claiming you can accomplish. Assuming an opponent behind you is one you've had time to recognize and plan a proper response using tactics rather than a snap reaction (which is what Atama was initially setting up as a scenario). On top of that, you are still claiming super human reaction speeds. It takes "the average human" (in this particular case, pretty much all healthy humans. Reaction times are very... consistent) .25 seconds to react to visual stimulus. In the time it takes a normal human to perceive a threat, you are able to perceive, register, plan a response, and execute that response? You may be able to pull that off if you react to an audio stimulus, which drops almost a full .1s off your reaction time, but that's assuming you can achieve precision aiming based on audio alone. Furthermore, your response requires coordination between left and right hand. That means communication between left and right hemispheres of your brain. Tab+Action can be performed with just the left hand, meaning zero communication and zero chance to miss or foul key press sequence. How does this work out? When you use two hands to type on the keyboard, you'll often have typos. That's because the two halves of your brain must constantly communicate with each other to coordinate your key press sequence. You'll notice that the typos almost always involve key press sequence issues when pushing a key with one hand, then the next key with the other in rapid succession. That means YOUR response requires the initial reaction, followed by moving the mouse, timing the action perfectly in motion, and resuming the spin to re-engage another target. Sounds all smooth criminal like, but that's a really REALLY tough claim to prove there chief. You might think "Well I have buttons on my mouse set for action buttons! So I'm only using one hand and thus one hemisphere!" Nope. You'd have to have the left half of your brain specializing in both spatial awareness AND calculation, which is incredibly rare. If you were one of those rare cases, you would not be wasting your life arguing on a forum, you'd be making YouTube videos of sinking baskets from the bleachers like a boss. Meaning you're two hemispheres are still having to communicate just because you are adding the aim to your action sequence, while tab target completely eliminates that step all together. Atama is absolutely correct, in the scenario he presented, tab target is much quicker than spin+aim+action.
Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Atama wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying. Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another. You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability. Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability. If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes. Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to .05s =/= .5s Then you’re absolutely full of crap. You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous? Yes. I missed where the decimal point was. Oh wow. You on the other hand have the delusion that in 1/20th of a second you can spin around, target an enemy, and activate an attack. You either have absolutely no idea how fast that is or you’re trolling, either way you pulled it out of your ass. For the sake of context, a really good frame rate for an MMO is 80 fps. That is extremely good. You’re saying that you can spin around and attack in the time it takes for a game to render 4 frames of animation. Or get a stopwatch and time .05 seconds. Which is extremely difficult to do. Hell, on my phone I can’t even tap fast enough on one finger to start and stop a stopwatch in that time. The best I can get is .1 second. And you claim you have superhuman speed and can spin around and attack an enemy almost as fast as a computer can render it. Again, you are completely full of it. I thought you were talking about a half a second because that’s physically possible. Now it is clear you have no idea what you’re saying, and any shred of credibility you want to claim is gone. Try not to make up completely insane and impossible claims next time you want to present an argument. You have a poor grasp of how combat functions if you think the enemy is somehow invisible before I decide to attack it. I’m not reacting to a spontaneously appearing mob, I turn to pop off a quick hit to the enemy behind me when I see it charging an attack, then turn back to my primary target in one fluid motion. That’s a straightforward and easy thing to do, and altogether it might take a quarter of a second after noticing it to turn, attack, and turn back. Go throw your temper tantrum elsewhere. If you wanted a discussion, then you wouldn’t be complete ignoring the fact that I gave comparable speed to a tab click. And whether you acknowledge it or not, it’ll take more time to tab target for the same process I just described than it takes for action combat. For every target swap, tab will always have an extra button to press. So you’re walking back your .05 second insanity? The .25 second estimate is still unrealistic but less so than your previous claim. If that was intended to be an exaggeration, okay, but it was idiotic to reinforce the statistic if it was hyperbole, as if that time was an essential part of your argument (to the extent that you mocked me for misreading the placement of a decimal point on my phone screen). It’s not throwing a temper tantrum to shred your foolishness with facts. I’m sorry if that made you mad (but not that sorry). Whether or not it is faster to turn, target, and click a key/button than to do the same thing with a tab key and then a key/button is going to vary from individual to individual. It’s going to depend more on comfort than anything else. And you’re splitting hairs about fractions of a second that don’t matter. I reiterate my original point; it’s a matter of taste and there is no objective “better” method.
Caeryl wrote: » by simple virtue of being required to press more keys to achieve the same result as another player who doesn't have to hard lock onto their target first.
noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » by simple virtue of being required to press more keys to achieve the same result as another player who doesn't have to hard lock onto their target first. Number of key presses is probably the stupids metric for deciding what is a better or worse game system I've ever seen. By that logic, Die Hard (with Bruce Willis) is the best game out there, as it requires no key presses at all. Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area. Tab targeting is far superior in these situations, but ONLY if the player sets it up. Players that complain about tab targeting are players that have not set it up. If there are not multiple targets in the area, the targeting system used makes no meaningful difference. Based on that, tab targeting is better.
Caeryl wrote: » noaani wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » by simple virtue of being required to press more keys to achieve the same result as another player who doesn't have to hard lock onto their target first. Number of key presses is probably the stupids metric for deciding what is a better or worse game system I've ever seen. By that logic, Die Hard (with Bruce Willis) is the best game out there, as it requires no key presses at all. Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area. Tab targeting is far superior in these situations, but ONLY if the player sets it up. Players that complain about tab targeting are players that have not set it up. If there are not multiple targets in the area, the targeting system used makes no meaningful difference. Based on that, tab targeting is better. Setting up tab targeting requires an unruly amount of keybinds. Target closest enemy, target target of my target, target farthest enemy, target closest ally, target farthest ally, target lowest health ally, target enemy targeting me, cycle closest -> farthest, cycle farthest -> closest, etc etc, there could be literally dozens, while a soft lock system lets you use your own eyes and brain to follow target selection and prioritize on your own.
