Does Taunt matter in PvP when you can Impale people?
hahaha I actually wrote up this comment saying something similar but never posted.
Might as well post it now
Taunt has always been important to pve tanking, it is kind of a boring to use and devs have struggled at times to make it useful in pvp.
Maybe it's time to stop yelling insults and find another way to get large monsters' attention.....like throwing a harpoon into them and trying to pull.
Add taunt to impale. Taunt is something that is hard to balance in pvp and impale can't really pull bosses (at least usually it can't). Combining to two means you have a skill that never should be considered dead in a form of content.
Main reason i think this should happen is because of ashes ability system. In the past at least, we were always told that classes have skill trees and players are able to invest points into different skills to unlock and improve them. This means a tank would have to give up something to get taunt on there bar. Combining the abilities would ensure that tanks don't have to respect based on the kind of content they are doing.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, one thing I've noticed in this thread - people seem to be talking about taunting as if it is a single ability.
I've only played as a tank in one MMO, but in that game I did play 3 different tank classes regularly, and they all had at least three abilities that increased threat to the target (either the ability directly, or all successful hits for the duration of the ability), but they also all had abilities to increase their position on the threat list of the target (again either just directly or for each successful hit for the duration of the ability).
The notion of tanks having one taunt ability (or even one taunt mechanic) seems very, umm, one dimensional to me. No wonder some games have trouble convincing players to play tanks.
I hope Ashes does better than that, as that sounds horrible.
So, one thing I've noticed in this thread - people seem to be talking about taunting as if it is a single ability.
I've only played as a tank in one MMO, but in that game I did play 3 different tank classes regularly, and they all had at least three abilities that increased threat to the target (either the ability directly, or all successful hits for the duration of the ability), but they also all had abilities to increase their position on the threat list of the target (again either just directly or for each successful hit for the duration of the ability).
The notion of tanks having one taunt ability (or even one taunt mechanic) seems very, umm, one dimensional to me. No wonder some games have trouble convincing players to play tanks.
I hope Ashes does better than that, as that sounds horrible.
So far, the AoC tank has around 4 abilities that add hate instantly and/or over time, and one of those can also force a target lock.
So, one thing I've noticed in this thread - people seem to be talking about taunting as if it is a single ability.
I've only played as a tank in one MMO, but in that game I did play 3 different tank classes regularly, and they all had at least three abilities that increased threat to the target (either the ability directly, or all successful hits for the duration of the ability), but they also all had abilities to increase their position on the threat list of the target (again either just directly or for each successful hit for the duration of the ability).
The notion of tanks having one taunt ability (or even one taunt mechanic) seems very, umm, one dimensional to me. No wonder some games have trouble convincing players to play tanks.
I hope Ashes does better than that, as that sounds horrible.
So far, the AoC tank has around 4 abilities that add hate instantly and/or over time, and one of those can also force a target lock.
Cool.
Haven't looked all that much at the list of class skills other than the mage - imo it's too far out to really be able to assume they are as they will be at launch.
I wouldn't necessarily call target lock a taunting ability (too temporary), but at least there isn't just one taunt and that's it.
Would like to see another actual hate control mechanic put in place though.
Tanks become more and more useful to the point that they are essential for large scale PvP.
They really aren't.
They have marginal use in holding points for PvP scenarios that have such mechanics, but for actual open world PvP - where the idea is to kill the enemy rather than hold some makeshift flag for pretend points - they are completely pointless.
Now, to be perfectly fair, very few games have PvP in the open world, and so players that haven't played such a game probably aren't aware of how useless tanks are when there is no artificial point you need to hold. Additionally, in open world PvP, players can far more readily come at you from any side, so the idea of a tank trying to protect DPS and healers by standing between them and the enemy doesn't hold up very well. Add to that the fact that in Ashes, respawn points will be somewhat random - meaning players that are killed and rejoin the fight literally can come from anywhere.
When the point of a PvP exchange is simply to kill the other group of players - a character that can't do much damage, can't heal and can easily be walked around and ignored serves no purpose.
Now, if you want to claim that tanks have marginal use in objective based, arena (and maybe siege) PvP, that's fine, you can have that.
However, while I'll give you that, if you have tanks with you in open PvP, I'll have your caravan.
Depends on what games you play I guess. The most recent MMORPG I've played the most is Archeage and the relaunch Unchained and tanks are essential. The best tank classes have aoe pulls and crowd control to lock up groups of players. As long as tanks are designed to be disrupters they'll always have a place in larger scale pvp. If a tank is only designed to take hits and agro mobs then that's just a poorly designed tank.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tanks become more and more useful to the point that they are essential for large scale PvP.
They really aren't.
They have marginal use in holding points for PvP scenarios that have such mechanics, but for actual open world PvP - where the idea is to kill the enemy rather than hold some makeshift flag for pretend points - they are completely pointless.
Now, to be perfectly fair, very few games have PvP in the open world, and so players that haven't played such a game probably aren't aware of how useless tanks are when there is no artificial point you need to hold. Additionally, in open world PvP, players can far more readily come at you from any side, so the idea of a tank trying to protect DPS and healers by standing between them and the enemy doesn't hold up very well. Add to that the fact that in Ashes, respawn points will be somewhat random - meaning players that are killed and rejoin the fight literally can come from anywhere.
When the point of a PvP exchange is simply to kill the other group of players - a character that can't do much damage, can't heal and can easily be walked around and ignored serves no purpose.
Now, if you want to claim that tanks have marginal use in objective based, arena (and maybe siege) PvP, that's fine, you can have that.
However, while I'll give you that, if you have tanks with you in open PvP, I'll have your caravan.
Depends on what games you play I guess. The most recent MMORPG I've played the most is Archeage and the relaunch Unchained and tanks are essential. The best tank classes have aoe pulls and crowd control to lock up groups of players. As long as tanks are designed to be disrupters they'll always have a place in larger scale pvp. If a tank is only designed to take hits and agro mobs then that's just a poorly designed tank.
Being able to lock up groups of enemies is a very useful trait in PvP but this kind of thing isn't usually exclusive to tanks. If dps classes have access to aoe CC abilities too then why would you take a tank over a dps?
@bot I'd have to disagree with you. most people are running darkrunner, or daggerspell. The closest you could come to "tank" in those pvp zerg fights would be abolisher, and that still serves as a high dps build.
Depends on what games you play I guess. The most recent MMORPG I've played the most is Archeage and the relaunch Unchained and tanks are essential. The best tank classes have aoe pulls and crowd control to lock up groups of players. As long as tanks are designed to be disrupters they'll always have a place in larger scale pvp. If a tank is only designed to take hits and agro mobs then that's just a poorly designed tank.
The only way you could honestly think this is if you also honestly think plate=tank in Archeage.
Even if you did think that, I would then point out to you that the point to most PvP in Archeage is to hold a specific point - something that won't be a consideration in the bulk of Ashes PvP.
In Ashes, if your caravan is being attacked, you don't get keep it by holding it for an amount of time, you keep it when you kill the people trying to take it from you. If you are the attacker, you don't take the caravan by just staying there, you need to actually kill the people defending it.
A tank serves no purpose here.
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PlateauMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Intrepid aren't just going to throw tanks under the bus. They will be viable in PvP. They will either have the most CC, they will be in the best position to apply CC (because they can stand on the front-lines without fear), or they will have a system to turn their usual aggro-generation into damage or damage mitigation for the team.
Don't get me wrong, there are ways for tanks to be absolutely useless in PvP. But they could also be a 100% necessary for any serious PvP team. Intrepid has control over which comes true, and I don't see any reason why they would choose to leave one of their main classes in the dirt.
Mega troll fr
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Intrepid aren't just going to throw tanks under the bus. They will be viable in PvP. They will either have the most CC, they will be in the best position to apply CC (because they can stand on the front-lines without fear), or they will have a system to turn their usual aggro-generation into damage or damage mitigation for the team.
Don't get me wrong, there are ways for tanks to be absolutely useless in PvP. But they could also be a 100% necessary for any serious PvP team. Intrepid has control over which comes true, and I don't see any reason why they would choose to leave one of their main classes in the dirt.
As long as there is proper player and spell collision there will be a place for tanks in PvP, even if it's just to body-block enemy spells. Given that Intrepid plan to make all hard CC abilities aimed it would be invaluable to have a tank with you.
Intrepid aren't just going to throw tanks under the bus. They will be viable in PvP. They will either have the most CC, they will be in the best position to apply CC (because they can stand on the front-lines without fear), or they will have a system to turn their usual aggro-generation into damage or damage mitigation for the team.
Don't get me wrong, there are ways for tanks to be absolutely useless in PvP. But they could also be a 100% necessary for any serious PvP team. Intrepid has control over which comes true, and I don't see any reason why they would choose to leave one of their main classes in the dirt.
As long as there is proper player and spell collision there will be a place for tanks in PvP, even if it's just to body-block enemy spells. Given that Intrepid plan to make all hard CC abilities aimed it would be invaluable to have a tank with you.
Archeage has collision.
Being able to body block spells would break tab targeting.
Intrepid aren't just going to throw tanks under the bus. They will be viable in PvP. They will either have the most CC, they will be in the best position to apply CC (because they can stand on the front-lines without fear), or they will have a system to turn their usual aggro-generation into damage or damage mitigation for the team.
Don't get me wrong, there are ways for tanks to be absolutely useless in PvP. But they could also be a 100% necessary for any serious PvP team. Intrepid has control over which comes true, and I don't see any reason why they would choose to leave one of their main classes in the dirt.
In all games I've played with specific support classes, it has been those classes that specialize in CC, not tanks.
This may not be the case in Ashes, but I can't really see how Intrepid could put in 8 support classes without those classes as a whole being largely responsible for CC.
If tanks are the CC masters in PvP in Ashes, that leaves support as almost useless - and literally useless in 1v1 PvP.
Edit to add; I've never played a game with support specific classes as well as a PvP focus, I'm not sure if that combination exists.
Depends on what games you play I guess. The most recent MMORPG I've played the most is Archeage and the relaunch Unchained and tanks are essential. The best tank classes have aoe pulls and crowd control to lock up groups of players. As long as tanks are designed to be disrupters they'll always have a place in larger scale pvp. If a tank is only designed to take hits and agro mobs then that's just a poorly designed tank.
The only way you could honestly think this is if you also honestly think plate=tank in Archeage.
Even if you did think that, I would then point out to you that the point to most PvP in Archeage is to hold a specific point - something that won't be a consideration in the bulk of Ashes PvP.
In Ashes, if your caravan is being attacked, you don't get keep it by holding it for an amount of time, you keep it when you kill the people trying to take it from you. If you are the attacker, you don't take the caravan by just staying there, you need to actually kill the people defending it.
A tank serves no purpose here.
I'm not sure if you've played Archeage then. Nightcloaks, skullknights, and off-tanks like revenants and bloodreavers act as engage classes. Their job is to get into the other team's ball and cc them so that their team's ball can reliably dps them.
Think of it like Overwatch if you've played it. There are multiple tanks that serve different purposes. You have Reinhardt (abolishers and skullknights) primarily as a defensive tank for holding a position while there are tanks like Winston (nightcloaks/bloodreavers) designed to engage and disrupt. Then you have off-tanks like Zarya (dreambreakers/revenants) designed for utility to support engages or holding positions.
Depends on what games you play I guess. The most recent MMORPG I've played the most is Archeage and the relaunch Unchained and tanks are essential. The best tank classes have aoe pulls and crowd control to lock up groups of players. As long as tanks are designed to be disrupters they'll always have a place in larger scale pvp. If a tank is only designed to take hits and agro mobs then that's just a poorly designed tank.
The only way you could honestly think this is if you also honestly think plate=tank in Archeage.
Even if you did think that, I would then point out to you that the point to most PvP in Archeage is to hold a specific point - something that won't be a consideration in the bulk of Ashes PvP.
In Ashes, if your caravan is being attacked, you don't get keep it by holding it for an amount of time, you keep it when you kill the people trying to take it from you. If you are the attacker, you don't take the caravan by just staying there, you need to actually kill the people defending it.
A tank serves no purpose here.
I'm not sure if you've played Archeage then.
Played it since beta.
The fact that you just called Nightcloaks (Auramancy, Occultism and Witchcraft) tanks, and Bloodreavers (Battlerage, Auramancy and Occultism) and Revenants (Auramancy, Occultism and Sorcery) offtanks makes me wonder if you did.
I played Revenant for almost the entire time I played, and I am borderline offended that would anyone consider it a tank class rather than a semi-effective caster DPS class with a good amount of CC.
If there were to be any definition of what makes a class a tank in Archeage, off tank or not, it would be that it has Defense in it. There may be more to it than that, but that one fact is a given. If a class does not have Defense in it, it is not a tank class. At least you got it right with Skullknights.
We could all make rediculous claims about what tanks can and cant do if we simply consider all classes to be tanks.
Does Taunt matter in PvP when you can Impale people?
hahaha I actually wrote up this comment saying something similar but never posted.
Might as well post it now
Taunt has always been important to pve tanking, it is kind of a boring to use and devs have struggled at times to make it useful in pvp.
Maybe it's time to stop yelling insults and find another way to get large monsters' attention.....like throwing a harpoon into them and trying to pull.
Add taunt to impale. Taunt is something that is hard to balance in pvp and impale can't really pull bosses (at least usually it can't). Combining to two means you have a skill that never should be considered dead in a form of content.
Main reason i think this should happen is because of ashes ability system. In the past at least, we were always told that classes have skill trees and players are able to invest points into different skills to unlock and improve them. This means a tank would have to give up something to get taunt on there bar. Combining the abilities would ensure that tanks don't have to respect based on the kind of content they are doing.
I didn't bother responding to this post at first, as I kind of ignored it based on who it quoted.
The issue with this suggestion is that sometimes you taunt a mob without impaling it. Since not all PvE mobs are immune to impale effects, and especially in the case of open dungeons with potential roaming mobs, impaling a mob every time you want to taunt it (which shouldn't just be to initiate combat, but also during) is obviously going to lead to a bad time.
Now, they could add hate gain (aka, a taunt) to implale. I'm all for that. I think tanks should have hate gain on most of their abilities that directly target an enemy.
There just also needs to be a stand alone taunt in the game. One that does nothing else.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Does Taunt matter in PvP when you can Impale people?
hahaha I actually wrote up this comment saying something similar but never posted.
Might as well post it now
Taunt has always been important to pve tanking, it is kind of a boring to use and devs have struggled at times to make it useful in pvp.
Maybe it's time to stop yelling insults and find another way to get large monsters' attention.....like throwing a harpoon into them and trying to pull.
Add taunt to impale. Taunt is something that is hard to balance in pvp and impale can't really pull bosses (at least usually it can't). Combining to two means you have a skill that never should be considered dead in a form of content.
Main reason i think this should happen is because of ashes ability system. In the past at least, we were always told that classes have skill trees and players are able to invest points into different skills to unlock and improve them. This means a tank would have to give up something to get taunt on there bar. Combining the abilities would ensure that tanks don't have to respect based on the kind of content they are doing.
I didn't bother responding to this post at first, as I kind of ignored it based on who it quoted.
The issue with this suggestion is that sometimes you taunt a mob without impaling it. Since not all PvE mobs are immune to impale effects, and especially in the case of open dungeons with potential roaming mobs, impaling a mob every time you want to taunt it (which shouldn't just be to initiate combat, but also during) is obviously going to lead to a bad time.
Now, they could add hate gain (aka, a taunt) to implale. I'm all for that. I think tanks should have hate gain on most of their abilities that directly target an enemy.
There just also needs to be a stand alone taunt in the game. One that does nothing else.
I'm a little confused as the way taunt usually works is it puts you at the top of aggro so the mob will come to you and attack you. Impale or not, the mob should be coming to you.
In wow, this is how death knights' death grip ability works. It pulls the target to you and taunts them. I don't think there are any issues with it doing that. I'm not a big tank so this this for what it's worth but i can't recall a time where pulling something to me while taunting was bad.
Can you give me some examples of why you think it would be a bad time?
I'm a little confused as the way taunt usually works is it puts you at the top of aggro so the mob will come to you and attack you. Impale or not, the mob should be coming to you.
This is a surprisingly complicated question, as all games handle it differently.
That said, virtually all games apply a hate list to mobs. Generally speaking, 1 point of damage is equal to 1 point of hate. This is why the highest DPS class in almost all games will pull aggro if there isn't a tank.
The mob then has a list of the targets it most "hates" based on how much hate they have accumulated towards each player character. Who ever is at the top of that list will be the focus of their attacks unless/until that character dies, someone overtakes them in hate accumulated, or the mobs mechanics activate a change in this hate list (mem-wipe).
On top of generating hate via damage, games also allocate various levels of hate gain to healing, buffs, debuffs and CC. This varies greatly from game to game, and so isn't worth attempting to put a general figure on. If you have played many MMO's, you will be able to think of games where healers were targeted first after the tank dies, and games where DPS is targeted first - this is a result of this variation.
Tank classes often have hate gain (taunt) on top of damage or CC effects that there abilities deal. This is why tanks are able to hold on to the targets attention even when dealing less damage than other players. Some games hide this hate gain, some show it and even have items, effects and abilities that alter it up or down.
Some games also apply a percentage system to hate, where tank classes gain 2 hate for every 1 damage they deal as an example.
Many games also have a mechanic to increase or decrease an individual characters position on this hate list. It may be a case of an increase of a specified number of positions, or it may put you in a specific position on the hate list (I have played games with various abilities that put the character first, second and last on the hate list, I'm sure there are more).
Generally speaking, a "taunt" is any ability that either increases your position on the targets hate list OR has a specific hate gain component to it.
If players are not forced to obey a hate list (which, naturally, we don't really have), the entire taunt mechanic is of no use in PvP. Other mechanics that are on the same ability as a taunt may have use, but the ability as a whole would have to be balanced around the fact that it has a taunt ability.
I want to point out that the above is all generally speaking. There probably isn't a single game out there where everything above absolutely applies, and almost all games will have other mechanics in play. However, the above is a reasonably decent Cliff Notes version of hate mechanics in a general capacity.
I hope this helps, though I'm sure you're aware I'm happy to attempt to answer any questions if you have them.
Can you give me some examples of why you think it would be a bad time?
Impale being the only taunt a tank has would be bad because you sometimes want the mob you are taunting to run straight to you after you taunt them, rather than being, well, impaled.
With open world dungeons, there is usually more roaming/pathing mobs than there are in instanced dungeons. If you are in an area with a lot of roaming mobs, you want to be able to precisely pull targets to you in a manner that won't see the entire area rush towards you. If you impale a mob, and a pathing mob then walks close by, you now have two mobs to take on due simply to taunt being tied to impale.
Again, I am not against impale having a taunt component, it just can't be the only taunt tanks have.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Can you give me some examples of why you think it would be a bad time?
Impale being the only taunt a tank has would be bad because you sometimes want the mob you are taunting to run straight to you after you taunt them, rather than being, well, impaled.
With open world dungeons, there is usually more roaming/pathing mobs than there are in instanced dungeons. If you are in an area with a lot of roaming mobs, you want to be able to precisely pull targets to you in a manner that won't see the entire area rush towards you. If you impale a mob, and a pathing mob then walks close by, you now have two mobs to take on due simply to taunt being tied to impale.
Again, I am not against impale having a taunt component, it just can't be the only taunt tanks have.
You still have me confused so lets make sure we are on the same page.
Impale is a single target pull. I don't see how it having taunt suddenly means you are pulling the room. I'm not sure if you are confusing it with an ability from another game with the same name or with tank's aoe pull Frighteous fury which became a taunt with an upgrade.
If the issue is we need more then one taunt then cool but that's kind of beside the point as what i'm recommending isn't changing the number of taunts.
Can you give me some examples of why you think it would be a bad time?
Impale being the only taunt a tank has would be bad because you sometimes want the mob you are taunting to run straight to you after you taunt them, rather than being, well, impaled.
With open world dungeons, there is usually more roaming/pathing mobs than there are in instanced dungeons. If you are in an area with a lot of roaming mobs, you want to be able to precisely pull targets to you in a manner that won't see the entire area rush towards you. If you impale a mob, and a pathing mob then walks close by, you now have two mobs to take on due simply to taunt being tied to impale.
Again, I am not against impale having a taunt component, it just can't be the only taunt tanks have.
You still have me confused so lets make sure we are on the same page.
Impale is a single target pull. I don't see how it having taunt suddenly means you are pulling the room. I'm not sure if you are confusing it with an ability from another game with the same name or with tank's aoe pull Frighteous fury which became a taunt with an upgrade.
If the issue is we need more then one taunt then cool but that's kind of beside the point as what i'm recommending isn't changing the number of taunts.
I guess it does depend on how the games system is built, but in every game I have played other than Archeage, both CC effects and dealing damage will proximity pull nearby mobs within a greater range than just taunting mobs without any secondary effects will.
If proximity pull works at the same range for every effect (damage, taunt, debuff, CC), then I will very suddenly have my doubts about this game.
It is when games get the small details like this right that make combat not completely shit.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Can you give me some examples of why you think it would be a bad time?
Impale being the only taunt a tank has would be bad because you sometimes want the mob you are taunting to run straight to you after you taunt them, rather than being, well, impaled.
With open world dungeons, there is usually more roaming/pathing mobs than there are in instanced dungeons. If you are in an area with a lot of roaming mobs, you want to be able to precisely pull targets to you in a manner that won't see the entire area rush towards you. If you impale a mob, and a pathing mob then walks close by, you now have two mobs to take on due simply to taunt being tied to impale.
Again, I am not against impale having a taunt component, it just can't be the only taunt tanks have.
You still have me confused so lets make sure we are on the same page.
Impale is a single target pull. I don't see how it having taunt suddenly means you are pulling the room. I'm not sure if you are confusing it with an ability from another game with the same name or with tank's aoe pull Frighteous fury which became a taunt with an upgrade.
If the issue is we need more then one taunt then cool but that's kind of beside the point as what i'm recommending isn't changing the number of taunts.
I guess it does depend on how the games system is built, but in every game I have played other than Archeage, both CC effects and dealing damage will proximity pull nearby mobs within a greater range than just taunting mobs without any secondary effects will.
If proximity pull works at the same range for every effect (damage, taunt, debuff, CC), then I will very suddenly have my doubts about this game.
It is when games get the small details like this right that make combat not completely shit.
Ok, that explains the disconnect.
If I get you, you are saying that mobs should pull differently whether they take damage or just being taunted.
If this mechanic is essential to taunt, it could still be given to impale. The devs have that power. Whether it's giving impale this unique effect or modifying the rules in some other way. They could also give this effect to other skills that are better suited for pulling mobs. This almost sounds like something that would be good on a utility skill.
If I get you, you are saying that mobs should pull differently whether they take damage or just being taunted.
Almost.
It is proximity pulling I am concerned with here, or in some games it is referred to as social aggro.
It is when you pull one mob, and nearby mobs attack you as well.
The range at which this happens should be different based on what you use to pull, and it is a greater issue in Ashes than in some other games due to open dungeons usually having a larger number of roaming encounters, which greatly increases the likelihood of this happening.
As I said though, I am all for giving Impale a taunt component. That isn't the issue. Almost all tank class abilities that target an enemy should provide some form of taunt with them (or at least have the option).
Taunting isn't something you only do at the start of an encounter as a tank, you should be taunting (increasing your hate to the target) for the entire duration of any encounter. Thus, taunt on abilities
So a short-range single target taunt with a decent duration and cooldown, long range impale or pull single target taunt with short duration but longer cooldown and various other abilities that generate increased threat for maintaining one or more targets' focus on you. This kind of format would be easier executed with tab targeting than action combat.
So a short-range single target taunt with a decent duration and cooldown, long range impale or pull single target taunt with short duration but longer cooldown and various other abilities that generate increased threat for maintaining one or more targets' focus on you. This kind of format would be easier executed with tab targeting than action combat.
Obviously depending on the execution (Intrepid may attempt to reinvent the wheel in terms of threat management), taunts need not have a duration at all.
If it is a simple hate gain or a position shift, there is no point in having a duration. They are instantaneous.
The only time a duration would be needed is if there is a force target mechanism - which is not a requirement of a taunt though there is no reason at all for it to not exist (and I would argue that it is what should exist as a taunt in PvP in order to make tanks viable in more situations).
As to whether it would be easier with tab or action targeting, that is a moot point. Yes, it would be easier if it were tab target, but that can be said for all single target abilities - even those at melee range. Since all players will need to always have at least 25% of their abilities as tab target (and at least 25% as action), I fail to see why this could be considered an issue one way or the other.
I guess tanks could be more viable in PvP what we have seen in general. Making the tank abilities to focus distract enemies and protect allies would be cool. I would like to see taunt also work on players so the targets would actually run towards and attack the tank. Taunt could force to target the tank for a short time.
Having played many MMOs both PvE and PvP I have often found the issue of tanks being a bit less useful than Healers/DPS in PvP. One system which did a great job of making tanks useful in PvP was SWTOR. For everyone who didn't play it: Each tank has a guard which he can place (and switch) on a group member. If the guarded players stands within a certain range of the tank, 50% of the damage is redirected to the tank as well as some damage reduction. Also taunt does decrease the damage a target deals when hitting a player other than the tank while under the taunt effect.
This does not mean that this system should be copied but it is to showcase that there are great ways to make tanks viable in PvP aside from Crowd Control and just absorbing a ton of damage. Because in most MMOs this alone will not make tanks a used specc in PvP. Do you guys know other great usages of taunt or other tank mechanics for PvP? I only played WoW, GW2, SWTOR and FF14 so there are surely more great options
SWTOR did tanks an amazing justice. I tanked in swtor and was also a pretty hardcore pvper. The tank was viable in any environment. I plan to tank in this game and I'm really hoping they find a way to make the class fun in both pve and pvp.
Having played many MMOs both PvE and PvP I have often found the issue of tanks being a bit less useful than Healers/DPS in PvP. One system which did a great job of making tanks useful in PvP was SWTOR. For everyone who didn't play it: Each tank has a guard which he can place (and switch) on a group member. If the guarded players stands within a certain range of the tank, 50% of the damage is redirected to the tank as well as some damage reduction. Also taunt does decrease the damage a target deals when hitting a player other than the tank while under the taunt effect.
This does not mean that this system should be copied but it is to showcase that there are great ways to make tanks viable in PvP aside from Crowd Control and just absorbing a ton of damage. Because in most MMOs this alone will not make tanks a used specc in PvP. Do you guys know other great usages of taunt or other tank mechanics for PvP? I only played WoW, GW2, SWTOR and FF14 so there are surely more great options
Tanks being less useful in PvP usually has more to do with them being under or misutilized and less to do with game balance alone. With that in mind, overutilization of tanks in a party can also make tanks appear less useful than other specializations. Tanks in PvP need the right amount of balance, not only from the games side, but from the people fielding them as well, for them to truly shine. Tanks when done properly will be able to support the front lines with better mobility, safer all-ins, better than average crowd control, and the ability to defend, hold, and stall pushed objectives once initiated. On another hand, they're great for backlines in small numbers for stalling out a gank or dive by protecting party/alliance members and forcing squishy enemy dps, and sometimes bruisers, to turn back or get jumped when good communication is provided.
Another important thing to note is player mentality. Tanks, out of all the class I've played and seen played, require the person tanking to enjoy and know what they're doing, while keeping in mind the limits of the class and themself, and knowing when it is okay to pass their limits for the sake of the objective or party. Anyone who is forced to play tank (although true with any class in some regard) will generally not be a good one, for the aforementioned points not applying to them. In those cases, you'll see a lot of them either playing as a scuffed bruiser, or an almost useless backline support, instead of providing their party with their roles ability to influence the battlefield just by existing sometimes.
As far as taunting goes, it all depends on overall game balance of other classes and abilities. Solo taunts that last longer would be great for focusing down key players and MVPs, or those carrying out solo objectives, while group/AoE taunts that agro more people but last a bit short are great for setting up your party for combos that will instantly change the tide of the battle if coordinated properly, such as AoE CC and nuke combos. Having taunts effect PvP also means that, or at least I would assume, there would be some semblance of party/AoE cleansing abilities to provide a way to negate taunts from being too useful or overtuned.
Will be interesting to see how this is all done once we see the state of combat, and how it'll be changed based on testing. I am personally hoping to see tanks play important roles in PvP instead of just being a requirement to pass raids and field/world bosses.
Not yet mentioned in this thread as a useful PvP tank ability is collision detection. This was implemented in objective based PvP in Warhammer Online Age of Reckoning, and became important when taking keeps. For example, a rank of 3 or 4 tanks would stand inside a keep gate, so that when it fell to siege, the enemy could not pass the tanky 'shield wall' until one or more tanks fell. Healers kept the tanks up, reserve tanks tried to fill gaps, while ranged DPS tried to focus the choke point.
Is there collision detection in AoC, at least in PvP?
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hahaha I actually wrote up this comment saying something similar but never posted.
Might as well post it now
Taunt has always been important to pve tanking, it is kind of a boring to use and devs have struggled at times to make it useful in pvp.
Maybe it's time to stop yelling insults and find another way to get large monsters' attention.....like throwing a harpoon into them and trying to pull.
Add taunt to impale. Taunt is something that is hard to balance in pvp and impale can't really pull bosses (at least usually it can't). Combining to two means you have a skill that never should be considered dead in a form of content.
Main reason i think this should happen is because of ashes ability system. In the past at least, we were always told that classes have skill trees and players are able to invest points into different skills to unlock and improve them. This means a tank would have to give up something to get taunt on there bar. Combining the abilities would ensure that tanks don't have to respect based on the kind of content they are doing.
It depends if you can use any abilities whilst being impaled, or does impale act like a stun.
If it gives you an additional cc ability to use when impale is on cooldown, that's a big thing in itself.
I've only played as a tank in one MMO, but in that game I did play 3 different tank classes regularly, and they all had at least three abilities that increased threat to the target (either the ability directly, or all successful hits for the duration of the ability), but they also all had abilities to increase their position on the threat list of the target (again either just directly or for each successful hit for the duration of the ability).
The notion of tanks having one taunt ability (or even one taunt mechanic) seems very, umm, one dimensional to me. No wonder some games have trouble convincing players to play tanks.
I hope Ashes does better than that, as that sounds horrible.
Impale is a root normally, but can be upgraded to be a stun. The tank throws out a chain at his target, impales them and pulls them to him.
So far, the AoC tank has around 4 abilities that add hate instantly and/or over time, and one of those can also force a target lock.
Haven't looked all that much at the list of class skills other than the mage - imo it's too far out to really be able to assume they are as they will be at launch.
I wouldn't necessarily call target lock a taunting ability (too temporary), but at least there isn't just one taunt and that's it.
Would like to see another actual hate control mechanic put in place though.
Depends on what games you play I guess. The most recent MMORPG I've played the most is Archeage and the relaunch Unchained and tanks are essential. The best tank classes have aoe pulls and crowd control to lock up groups of players. As long as tanks are designed to be disrupters they'll always have a place in larger scale pvp. If a tank is only designed to take hits and agro mobs then that's just a poorly designed tank.
Being able to lock up groups of enemies is a very useful trait in PvP but this kind of thing isn't usually exclusive to tanks. If dps classes have access to aoe CC abilities too then why would you take a tank over a dps?
Even if you did think that, I would then point out to you that the point to most PvP in Archeage is to hold a specific point - something that won't be a consideration in the bulk of Ashes PvP.
In Ashes, if your caravan is being attacked, you don't get keep it by holding it for an amount of time, you keep it when you kill the people trying to take it from you. If you are the attacker, you don't take the caravan by just staying there, you need to actually kill the people defending it.
A tank serves no purpose here.
Don't get me wrong, there are ways for tanks to be absolutely useless in PvP. But they could also be a 100% necessary for any serious PvP team. Intrepid has control over which comes true, and I don't see any reason why they would choose to leave one of their main classes in the dirt.
As long as there is proper player and spell collision there will be a place for tanks in PvP, even if it's just to body-block enemy spells. Given that Intrepid plan to make all hard CC abilities aimed it would be invaluable to have a tank with you.
Archeage has collision.
Being able to body block spells would break tab targeting.
In all games I've played with specific support classes, it has been those classes that specialize in CC, not tanks.
This may not be the case in Ashes, but I can't really see how Intrepid could put in 8 support classes without those classes as a whole being largely responsible for CC.
If tanks are the CC masters in PvP in Ashes, that leaves support as almost useless - and literally useless in 1v1 PvP.
Edit to add; I've never played a game with support specific classes as well as a PvP focus, I'm not sure if that combination exists.
I'm not sure if you've played Archeage then. Nightcloaks, skullknights, and off-tanks like revenants and bloodreavers act as engage classes. Their job is to get into the other team's ball and cc them so that their team's ball can reliably dps them.
Think of it like Overwatch if you've played it. There are multiple tanks that serve different purposes. You have Reinhardt (abolishers and skullknights) primarily as a defensive tank for holding a position while there are tanks like Winston (nightcloaks/bloodreavers) designed to engage and disrupt. Then you have off-tanks like Zarya (dreambreakers/revenants) designed for utility to support engages or holding positions.
The fact that you just called Nightcloaks (Auramancy, Occultism and Witchcraft) tanks, and Bloodreavers (Battlerage, Auramancy and Occultism) and Revenants (Auramancy, Occultism and Sorcery) offtanks makes me wonder if you did.
I played Revenant for almost the entire time I played, and I am borderline offended that would anyone consider it a tank class rather than a semi-effective caster DPS class with a good amount of CC.
If there were to be any definition of what makes a class a tank in Archeage, off tank or not, it would be that it has Defense in it. There may be more to it than that, but that one fact is a given. If a class does not have Defense in it, it is not a tank class. At least you got it right with Skullknights.
We could all make rediculous claims about what tanks can and cant do if we simply consider all classes to be tanks.
I didn't bother responding to this post at first, as I kind of ignored it based on who it quoted.
The issue with this suggestion is that sometimes you taunt a mob without impaling it. Since not all PvE mobs are immune to impale effects, and especially in the case of open dungeons with potential roaming mobs, impaling a mob every time you want to taunt it (which shouldn't just be to initiate combat, but also during) is obviously going to lead to a bad time.
Now, they could add hate gain (aka, a taunt) to implale. I'm all for that. I think tanks should have hate gain on most of their abilities that directly target an enemy.
There just also needs to be a stand alone taunt in the game. One that does nothing else.
I'm a little confused as the way taunt usually works is it puts you at the top of aggro so the mob will come to you and attack you. Impale or not, the mob should be coming to you.
In wow, this is how death knights' death grip ability works. It pulls the target to you and taunts them. I don't think there are any issues with it doing that. I'm not a big tank so this this for what it's worth but i can't recall a time where pulling something to me while taunting was bad.
Can you give me some examples of why you think it would be a bad time?
That said, virtually all games apply a hate list to mobs. Generally speaking, 1 point of damage is equal to 1 point of hate. This is why the highest DPS class in almost all games will pull aggro if there isn't a tank.
The mob then has a list of the targets it most "hates" based on how much hate they have accumulated towards each player character. Who ever is at the top of that list will be the focus of their attacks unless/until that character dies, someone overtakes them in hate accumulated, or the mobs mechanics activate a change in this hate list (mem-wipe).
On top of generating hate via damage, games also allocate various levels of hate gain to healing, buffs, debuffs and CC. This varies greatly from game to game, and so isn't worth attempting to put a general figure on. If you have played many MMO's, you will be able to think of games where healers were targeted first after the tank dies, and games where DPS is targeted first - this is a result of this variation.
Tank classes often have hate gain (taunt) on top of damage or CC effects that there abilities deal. This is why tanks are able to hold on to the targets attention even when dealing less damage than other players. Some games hide this hate gain, some show it and even have items, effects and abilities that alter it up or down.
Some games also apply a percentage system to hate, where tank classes gain 2 hate for every 1 damage they deal as an example.
Many games also have a mechanic to increase or decrease an individual characters position on this hate list. It may be a case of an increase of a specified number of positions, or it may put you in a specific position on the hate list (I have played games with various abilities that put the character first, second and last on the hate list, I'm sure there are more).
Generally speaking, a "taunt" is any ability that either increases your position on the targets hate list OR has a specific hate gain component to it.
If players are not forced to obey a hate list (which, naturally, we don't really have), the entire taunt mechanic is of no use in PvP. Other mechanics that are on the same ability as a taunt may have use, but the ability as a whole would have to be balanced around the fact that it has a taunt ability.
I want to point out that the above is all generally speaking. There probably isn't a single game out there where everything above absolutely applies, and almost all games will have other mechanics in play. However, the above is a reasonably decent Cliff Notes version of hate mechanics in a general capacity.
I hope this helps, though I'm sure you're aware I'm happy to attempt to answer any questions if you have them. Impale being the only taunt a tank has would be bad because you sometimes want the mob you are taunting to run straight to you after you taunt them, rather than being, well, impaled.
With open world dungeons, there is usually more roaming/pathing mobs than there are in instanced dungeons. If you are in an area with a lot of roaming mobs, you want to be able to precisely pull targets to you in a manner that won't see the entire area rush towards you. If you impale a mob, and a pathing mob then walks close by, you now have two mobs to take on due simply to taunt being tied to impale.
Again, I am not against impale having a taunt component, it just can't be the only taunt tanks have.
You still have me confused so lets make sure we are on the same page.
Impale is a single target pull. I don't see how it having taunt suddenly means you are pulling the room. I'm not sure if you are confusing it with an ability from another game with the same name or with tank's aoe pull Frighteous fury which became a taunt with an upgrade.
If the issue is we need more then one taunt then cool but that's kind of beside the point as what i'm recommending isn't changing the number of taunts.
I guess it does depend on how the games system is built, but in every game I have played other than Archeage, both CC effects and dealing damage will proximity pull nearby mobs within a greater range than just taunting mobs without any secondary effects will.
If proximity pull works at the same range for every effect (damage, taunt, debuff, CC), then I will very suddenly have my doubts about this game.
It is when games get the small details like this right that make combat not completely shit.
Ok, that explains the disconnect.
If I get you, you are saying that mobs should pull differently whether they take damage or just being taunted.
If this mechanic is essential to taunt, it could still be given to impale. The devs have that power. Whether it's giving impale this unique effect or modifying the rules in some other way. They could also give this effect to other skills that are better suited for pulling mobs. This almost sounds like something that would be good on a utility skill.
It is proximity pulling I am concerned with here, or in some games it is referred to as social aggro.
It is when you pull one mob, and nearby mobs attack you as well.
The range at which this happens should be different based on what you use to pull, and it is a greater issue in Ashes than in some other games due to open dungeons usually having a larger number of roaming encounters, which greatly increases the likelihood of this happening.
As I said though, I am all for giving Impale a taunt component. That isn't the issue. Almost all tank class abilities that target an enemy should provide some form of taunt with them (or at least have the option).
Taunting isn't something you only do at the start of an encounter as a tank, you should be taunting (increasing your hate to the target) for the entire duration of any encounter. Thus, taunt on abilities
Obviously depending on the execution (Intrepid may attempt to reinvent the wheel in terms of threat management), taunts need not have a duration at all.
If it is a simple hate gain or a position shift, there is no point in having a duration. They are instantaneous.
The only time a duration would be needed is if there is a force target mechanism - which is not a requirement of a taunt though there is no reason at all for it to not exist (and I would argue that it is what should exist as a taunt in PvP in order to make tanks viable in more situations).
As to whether it would be easier with tab or action targeting, that is a moot point. Yes, it would be easier if it were tab target, but that can be said for all single target abilities - even those at melee range. Since all players will need to always have at least 25% of their abilities as tab target (and at least 25% as action), I fail to see why this could be considered an issue one way or the other.
SWTOR did tanks an amazing justice. I tanked in swtor and was also a pretty hardcore pvper. The tank was viable in any environment. I plan to tank in this game and I'm really hoping they find a way to make the class fun in both pve and pvp.
Tanks being less useful in PvP usually has more to do with them being under or misutilized and less to do with game balance alone. With that in mind, overutilization of tanks in a party can also make tanks appear less useful than other specializations. Tanks in PvP need the right amount of balance, not only from the games side, but from the people fielding them as well, for them to truly shine. Tanks when done properly will be able to support the front lines with better mobility, safer all-ins, better than average crowd control, and the ability to defend, hold, and stall pushed objectives once initiated. On another hand, they're great for backlines in small numbers for stalling out a gank or dive by protecting party/alliance members and forcing squishy enemy dps, and sometimes bruisers, to turn back or get jumped when good communication is provided.
Another important thing to note is player mentality. Tanks, out of all the class I've played and seen played, require the person tanking to enjoy and know what they're doing, while keeping in mind the limits of the class and themself, and knowing when it is okay to pass their limits for the sake of the objective or party. Anyone who is forced to play tank (although true with any class in some regard) will generally not be a good one, for the aforementioned points not applying to them. In those cases, you'll see a lot of them either playing as a scuffed bruiser, or an almost useless backline support, instead of providing their party with their roles ability to influence the battlefield just by existing sometimes.
As far as taunting goes, it all depends on overall game balance of other classes and abilities. Solo taunts that last longer would be great for focusing down key players and MVPs, or those carrying out solo objectives, while group/AoE taunts that agro more people but last a bit short are great for setting up your party for combos that will instantly change the tide of the battle if coordinated properly, such as AoE CC and nuke combos. Having taunts effect PvP also means that, or at least I would assume, there would be some semblance of party/AoE cleansing abilities to provide a way to negate taunts from being too useful or overtuned.
Will be interesting to see how this is all done once we see the state of combat, and how it'll be changed based on testing. I am personally hoping to see tanks play important roles in PvP instead of just being a requirement to pass raids and field/world bosses.
PvP | Hardcore | Organized & Dedicated
Is there collision detection in AoC, at least in PvP?