Video game studios pretend that real social issues do not exist.

I am having trouble putting together this post because I dont want it to be taken as a political view or as in bringing stuff from the ugly real life into a fantasy MMORPG world. However, two things start to annoy me when living the plot of video games and I want to write my opinion on what is a good immersive way to develop a plot, and what breaks immersion. Also it might be mentioned here secondly, but I find it more important and serious that political correctness takes away the gravity of human suffering, so don't misjudge.

There is a TLDR. I suggest that you read the full post, even tho it might not be agreable to your beliefs. You can always skip those bits.

The violence people have suffered because of religious, racial and sexual hatred should not be forgotten because political correctness wants people to behave like there are new norms. No, the ugly truth is that society is not ready yet to be kind.
I have been playing (I won't name the MMORPG) for the past 5 years on and off. I find the writing of the plot in (I wont name the MMORPG) non genuine. The characters of that game make real social issues as non existent with the way they so casually brush them off as the norm:
1) They portrait slavers as goofy and silly clans being outsmarted by the good guys.
2) They portrait couples of the same sex as living easy lives within a town, while the reality of 2020 is that still many people face humiliation and aggression for being attracted to the same sex.
3) They portrait religious cults as underground, while in 2020 religion is still a massive power influencing the heart of people and their attitude towards their fellows.

Recently I played again Dragon Age Inquisition.
1) They didnt sugar-coat the hatred of mages (controlled slaves if you will) by the many or the near killing to extinction (spoiler. I will actually take the second piece of hatred out)
2) They didn't sugar-coat the issues one homosexual character had with his family.
3) They didn't sugar-coat the treatment mentally ill people face by their peers.
One of the homosexual characters of Dragon Age Inquisition. Dorian had such interesting dialogue script. In comparison, the MMORPGthat I mention above had numerous homosexual characters made so BORING because they game was being politically correct. None of the characters faced any troubles because the game writers decided to pretend that homosexual people dont face discrimination and live a life just like anybody else. Lies. Dorian was my fav companion in Inquisition and I even made my character take a sexual interest in him to unlock more dialogue. I am a straight guy but I just enjoyed how interesting BioWare made Dorian in the game so I wanted to experience more.

My second favourite character was Cole, a ghost-demon in the form of a very young male human. His story was that as a demon he was attracted to the imperial prison due to the suffering of the inmates. But something changed in him when he found a young mage taken prisoner and thrown in the dungeons for being able to use magic. Left to scream for food and was forgoten left to die hungry and covered in his own shiet. The demon assumed his form and from there on he became a mercy killer, ending the lives of people suffering. When he joined my group he was treated badly from almost all of the other characters. Even I as the main character had options to treat him badly for his confused mental and weird state.
Do you know how interesting was to watch the cutscenes and diologue of that confused spirit? Struggling with his duality?
In the MMORPG I mentioned above all the "weirdos" were treated as cool and strong and funny and managing just fine. Lies.

I wrote about another Inquisition character who was tied and briliantly written about racial hatred and genocide. I took it out because I dont want to spoil the game for any1 who hasn't played it yet. Go play Dragon Age Inquisition. You will thank me.
Ye, the above mentioned MMORPG pretends that the slaver race and the enslaved race put behind their differences and formed one of the three alliances of the game. Such political correct bs. But not Dragon Age Inquisition. When I finished the 3rd DLC of that game, the theme of genocide was not sugar-coated. BioWare created such an amazing character. Damn right "character". What they did to your people was wrong. I dont blame you.

TL;DR
If you are a person that has experienced racism, violence for being homosexual, ridicule for having mental issues, hatred because of your religion, would you like it if a video game writer pretended that lives like yours are easy without discrimination? I might be wrong and you would like it if somebody wrote a plot in which you can go about life without being treated badly. That also makes sense. But I find that when video games pretend (for politically correct reasons) that such characters dont face rejection, aggression, alienation, they HIDE the truth. that is: people are still suffering. Dont pretend that it's a perfect world, with happy go-lucky-characters with just some evil king or some evil world boss demon that is the bad guy. That is immersion breaking and a boring setting.

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Glory

I hope Ashes of Creation stays as apolitical as possible. However, that does not mean I want boring writing. Be interesting and be realistic. Have villains and heroes on all sides. To address each point directly:

1) They portrait slavers as goofy and silly clans being outsmarted by the good guys.

-Agreed. This is just poor writing when this occurs. Depth of story will resolve this issue. However I wouldn't expect Ashes to have the same level of individual character story as Dragon Age, for example.

2) They portrait couples of the same sex as living easy lives within a town, while the reality of 2020 is that still many people face humiliation and aggression for being attracted to the same sex.

-I agree that same sex people face discrimination in the world. However so do many other groups. I don't want Ashes of Creation to create a victim hood though. I'd much rather the story telling come naturally. That might include a plot line like you describe here, it might also include something else. In short, I don't want them to force particular concepts into the game. Write the story and see what comes naturally.

Using your reference of Dragon Age, I loved how the city elves were treated in Dragon Age Origins and naturally grew an affinity towards them. Obviously we don't face "elf discrimination" on Earth but the point and cross over was relatable and interesting.

3) They portrait religious cults as underground, while in 2020 religion is still a massive power influencing the heart of people and their attitude towards their fellows.

-I'm not sure if your intention is to cast all religion on a negative light here but that's definitely how this comment feels. Some religions are good, some are bad. Some individuals are good, some are bad. It's a choice and a doctrine people choose to follow. Needless to say, going back to point #1, having a powerful corrupt or evil religion can cast for a great story.

BlackBrony

Personally I don't think it matters, unless players make it matter.
I see Verra as an empty canvas, and players are responsible for its outcome. The world has ended and we're thrown here in this new world.
Could there be a guild that hates Tulnar? Maybe there is, and maybe the achieve something great, and they will be remember in the history of the server as that racist guild who dominated.
But that could create an alliance of all the races who fought this racist guild, considering everyone has the same opportunities.
I mean, I think we, as players, will make the story of Verra, and will have some ideas put there by writers. This game is after all a sandbox game.

Dragon Age it's a single player game, and it wants to tell a story, that we, as gamer, consume. We might have some leeway on our choices, but they have been all predefined by the devs.
Intrepid can't do that here. They can limit our choices through the infrastructure, but if a Mayor doesn't want a Tulnar in his town, such Mayor might be able to do it, who knows!
Is that fun? Well, it's different! Might incite wars, economic suicide, soo many things.

Hexcat

OOOOOOOOH!!!! now i get it, is like Game of Thrones vs Lord of the Rings

Nagash

Chezshire wrote: »

OOOOOOOOH!!!! now i get it, is like Game of Thrones vs Lord of the Rings

Lord of the rings kicks game of thrones ass

Flashman

George Black wrote: »

I find that when video games pretend (for politically correct reasons) that such characters dont face rejection, aggression, alienation, they HIDE the truth. that is: people are still suffering. Dont pretend that it's a perfect world, with happy go-lucky-characters with just some evil king or some evil world boss demon that is the bad guy. That is immersion breaking and a boring setting.

There's a world of variables at play here. Everything from the ability of the writers to tell a good story... the desire of the game go certain places... the fact that not everyone is touched by the same issues... the way that people go to videogames to escape and act differently or be treated differently to begin with. So many things.

So there's going to be no single satisfying answer here. One thing I do know, however, is that when people approach a piece of art (videogame, music, painting, whatever), made by someone else, and start saying it doesn't represent their life or speak to them in a way they like... well, I don't actually have a great deal of sympathy. Art should be approached with an open mind to begin with. And even when it is, it won't always be to your taste. It won't always make you happy. It will never represent your life every time. Don't know what else to say.

Hexcat

Nagash wrote: »

Chezshire wrote: »

OOOOOOOOH!!!! now i get it, is like Game of Thrones vs Lord of the Rings

Lord of the rings kicks game of thrones ass

Not true... at all...

Nagash

Chezshire wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Chezshire wrote: »

OOOOOOOOH!!!! now i get it, is like Game of Thrones vs Lord of the Rings

Lord of the rings kicks game of thrones ass

Not true... at all...

Oh.

Oh no

Caeryl

Chezshire wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Chezshire wrote: »

OOOOOOOOH!!!! now i get it, is like Game of Thrones vs Lord of the Rings

Lord of the rings kicks game of thrones ass

Not true... at all...

LotR is the kind of fantasy drama I want to have in a fantasy game. Some cultural and racial tension but not anything that would completely ruin chances at two races working together.

GoT is the exact opposite. **** and slavery and edgy “twists” that are only there for some kind of shock factor. It adds nothing substantial.

Noaani

So, I've been thinking about this a bit, and I have to say, I'm not actually sure how relevant it actually is.

Not the question - the question itself is a good question to ask. I'm talking about how some games lack this particular narrative.

To me, a big part of the reason some groups make as much of an issue out of the kinds of things we are talking about here (race, religion, sexual orientation etc) is because these people have nothing bigger in their life. There is no major overreaching threat to the world (the last few weeks notwithstanding).

It would seem to me, that if people lived in a world where a dragon attacking your city was an actual real possibility, there would less of a focus on these kinds of things.

So perhaps - just perhaps - the developers of some games not really having these kinds of discrimination in their games is a nod to how they would think peoples behavior would shift in a world where there are these real threats to everything.

I have no doubt that many games just ignore these things for monetary reasons. They want to target their games at as many people as possible, and any mention of religion, racism or homosexuality automatically blocks the product from a number of entire markets, and also puts some individuals off the product in other areas (a sad reality).

However, I also do think that games that include them on the fringes of their content don't take in to account their own world. If you and your neighbor have worked together to fight off that dragon, you aren't really going to care too much about any of those small details about his life. I personally don't see how anyone could be biased against an aspect of a particular person, if someone with that specific aspect has helped you save your family and home.

The only time any of these things would really come in to play is when you have a large single race community. Under the above, it is reasonable to see that if everyone that helps you kill that dragon is of one race, this activity doesn't alter your perception of other races. This also happens to be the one aspect of this discussion that I think most fantasy IP's do a fairly good job about (Dwarves distructing Elves etc).

Oh, and GoT is better than LotR, unless you consume all of Tolken's works, then it is better than GoT - but if you consume all of Tolkens works, then you would also need to consume all of G.R.R Martins works based around A Song of Ice and Fire - in which case GoT overtakes LotR again, though LotR may well jump back ahead again when the series comes out, leaving GoT to take the lead again when one of the spinoffs from that actually sees some playtime.

Or put another way, they are about equal, all things considered.

I'm just trying to work out if there would be any way to mix the characters up from each IP to make for a single better version of one or the other...

Virtek

@George Black

While I respect your opinions and your right to express them, I would have to say that I disagree. I actually think these approaches in a fantasy environment are great. Above and beyond the fact that, yes, people use fantasy to escape from poopy experiences in reality.

TL;DR - Fantasy can influence reality. Why not let the potential positive influences exist and have at least a minimal impact on the real world?
Why shut it down? To spread the same sadness and despair into a beautifully-crafted world of joy and equality? Put that shit on a shelf, instead, as an example of how people should treat others. BE THAT EXAMPLE in your own way, but don't parade it around like it's the grandest accomplishment ever.
Just let it exist. It looks normal. It should be normal. It is normal.

1) Mockery is one of the greatest ways to deflate someone's serious opinion. If you think their idea is terrible and you mock it, they get angry and flustered and look doubly foolish. To the common passers-by, your mockery will encourage laughter, with or without pointing at the display of hilarity. This immediately deflates their opinions about the target as well. If they never come back with a good reason for that opinion to exist, their stance never recovers and it sinks into a status of "WTF" in everyone's minds.
Think of the way current day comedians poke fun at political views. Makes the person with that stance look really silly, doesn't it? Their silly satire brings the problems to light in a way that an angry tirade never could.

2) One of the ways to have masses accept something as normal is to truly normalize it, without fanfare about how grand an event it is. THIS is why Black Widow and Wonder Woman have been so much more well-received than Batwoman, for example. Widow and WW don't parade the fact that they are women successfully kicking butt alongside men and super beings. They don't forcefully remind the world that the struggle is real. They don't taunt men with the "we're here to replace you now."
No. They just ARE badasses in their own right.
They simply exist on and above the level of other men and women in their universe. They get the job done without going into rants about the patriarchy. Widow fights to sacrifice her own life and let a man live because of her compassion, all while quite literally pushing forth 1/6 of the plan to save the entire universe. Wonder Woman looked at men with guns that were afraid to move onto a field of battle and then casually started the charge that would win the day, earning the men's respect without a hint of snide degradation placed upon them.
This example plays out every day in normal life. Confidence. Confidence will land you a job because you believe you are the perfect fit and push that perception out to others. You simply ARE the right person for the job. You know it, and they can see it because you normalize that thought and project it outwards.
While there does need to be some proficiency and knowledge, etc, all of the skill in the world will not land you that job if you are woefully unconfident.
You don't need to prove it, just be it. Feeling a need to prove it moves into the "cocky" territory, which nobody likes.

3) Both of the above points, placed DIRECTLY in the eyes of young people, is a massively effective way to make bad people look like clowns that can't be taken seriously while simultaneously making current and previous social issues appear as if there is no reason at all that they should have existed. If a young mind can grasp these concepts and hold them close, the future will eventually grow to fit the mold of their established viewpoints.
Hell, even adult minds can be influenced by what they see and hear. I won't even dig into this can of worms, but politics and mainstream media are just two examples of garbage information being thrown out and gobbled up by educated adult minds that should be used to thinking for themselves.
If those viewpoints can be casually absorbed by the public...why not just let that happen with the happy and welcoming environment of a fantasy environment where "bad people" look like absolute idiots? Point at laugh at the clowns, they exist for your entertainment.
Why not support the idea that people of various races, creeds, sexual preferences and gender simply ARE equal and live a life as good any anyone else possibly could. The fantasy world doesn't show a struggle because their never should have been a struggle. This is how things should be, that is all.

One should not celebrate treating another being in a just and decent manner, similarly to how one should not celebrate that you didn't actually kill a sibling while growing up.
It's how good people act. It should be expected, not applauded.

Amirite? Wrong?

George_Black

@Virtek

I expressed my opinion. I did mention in my post that perhaps people prefer an environment where they are not reminded of reality. This should show that I understand that reasoning.

From the responses I gathered that people prefer a narrative that is idealistic, presented from a happy lightinf, instead of one in which the wrongs are not sugarcoated. A heavier setting, in which the good would eventually win, however being against greater adversities would make the conclusion more thunderous and rewarding.

People we too quick to get angry at me even though I didnt say anything rude.

I am not surprised at the responses prefering a fantasy word in which equality is GRANTED for our fellow people, but I am surprised by the anger and ill disposition of a few. Very surprised at the way they responded.

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Virtek

@George Black
Oh, yeah, I can definitely see your reasoning behind your thoughts. For sure a valid viewpoint, though I must admit it's one that I only enjoy in a single player environment. I really dig dark and gritty environments there...I simply don't want to spend a lot of time on a lot of games like that. Just one or two here or there.

As for people's reactions in this thread, these types of topics are very... Stimulating to many people, to both the positive and negative extremes. Also, it is difficult to get a specific "feeling" of response across via text, as opposed to body language and tonal inflection of voice while speaking.

I would honestly not worry too much about there being anger in some responses. While I do not know everyone in this thread, those that have had interactions with me are not aiming anger at you, of this I am fairly certain. I am familiar with their personalities and general approach to social interactions, and I am positive they are simply relating their ideas. Even if in a passionate manner.

I don't want to "put words into some else's mouth/post," so to say, but...
Of those I know, you're in the company of good people here and I'm sure they bore no ill intent towards you. I urge you to read through the responses again, but with a neutral voice in your mind.

@noaani
I'm pretty onboard with your points, here. I can take it or leave it. That said, I've always been good with "leaving my sense of disbelief at the door" when watching movies. That kinda carries over into video game narratives, too. Unless it's smacking me in the face to teach me a lesson, I'm ok with allowing every game's separate lore and storytelling to come across and bring me into it's own unique environment, as was hinted at by @Ravudha and @BadPotato .

I'm also getting quite the chuckle out of your idea to combine GoT and LotR universes... Very good and very bad things could come out of that, lol

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WizardTim

@George Black

Racism is touchy in literature. The best I can say is "Don't do it, and if you do it, don't use real world references. If you use representation, be sure that representation isn't easily associated with stereotypes because it tends to translate poorly".

For example, if you have robots in a world, and you have a racism theme against robots, people tend to perceive that and apply it to insert-race-here automatically. Which only encourages their racism.

Basically, what you put into literature has a suggestive effect on the viewers mindset. It's not obvious, but the more exposure to it, the more they adopt it.

Sexism and racism should be approached in games VERY carefully. Which would explain why few creators even touch the subjects anymore. At least, not intentionally.

Azathoth

For me I understand the original intention of the op. However, just because some people experience injustice because of who they are or what they believe it does not mean they all do. So having a plot that reflects moral/social injustices based on a characters belief/lifestyle neglects all the people that don't experience that injustice.

I have mental health issues and that has altered some of my work environments, some of my peers perception and attitude towards me, and in some cases they way my friends act around me in certain situations.

I have a friend with a more complex issue than mine who works hard to keep it from non-family/friends (where I openly share).

If he is palying the game why would he have to watch a character be treated differently due to a mental health issue if he himself has never been treated as such?

Why would I want to play a fantasy game and interact with a character facing similar issues that I do? Especially on days where everyone seems to be kind of asshats about it?

If this were going to be an atmospheric, adult slice of life, drama I would 100% expect that level of reality. In the expected fantasy environment where we shouldn't assume people care about sexual orientation or your species (no auto-enemies based on race) why would developers interject that?

You can't claim it's about "not faking" those things don't exist if they don't exist. Also, the whole game/environment/races/etc. are in fact fake. Hence fantasy game.

I missed the forums...

Nagash

Azathoth wrote: »

For me I understand the original intention of the op. However, just because some people experience injustice because of who they are or what they believe it does not mean they all do. So having a plot that reflects moral/social injustices based on a characters belief/lifestyle neglects all the people that don't experience that injustice.

I have mental health issues and that has altered some of my work environments, some of my peers perception and attitude towards me, and in some cases they way my friends act around me in certain situations.

I have a friend with a more complex issue than mine who works hard to keep it from non-family/friends (where I openly share).

If he is palying the game why would he have to watch a character be treated differently due to a mental health issue if he himself has never been treated as such?

Why would I want to play a fantasy game and interact with a character facing similar issues that I do? Especially on days where everyone seems to be kind of asshats about it?

If this were going to be an atmospheric, adult slice of life, drama I would 100% expect that level of reality. In the expected fantasy environment where we shouldn't assume people care about sexual orientation or your species (no auto-enemies based on race) why would developers interject that?

You can't claim it's about "not faking" those things don't exist if they don't exist. Also, the whole game/environment/races/etc. are in fact fake. Hence fantasy game.

I missed the forums...

its nice to see you back ^^

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