Corruption system

So, this came up in the Toxicity dev discussion from @sunfrog

sunfrog wrote: »

Doing nothing and letting the community sort it out is not realistic, because people don't behave that way. However, I just sat here thinking about stuff and I can circumvent almost anything you can think up. So can everyone else.
I think the corruption system along with a mute button will take care of most things but I also think the corruption system won't work and Steven will have to get rid of it eventually. I don't think corruption will make it into the final game and if it does it won't last very long.
So to answer your question, I think toxicity is an unsolvable problem but you should still try because someday it might lead to a solution.

And instead of derailing that thread anymore than I have already, I'd like to ask about this. Why do you believe that the corruption system won't work and that Steven will get rid of it eventually?

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Ventharien

If the carrying difference is the same as the difference between a player and their mule, and you are content with travelling with a tenth of the goods of everyone else, mind you, with no additional protection, you will be a sub par crafter. Which is fine. Thinking other people will be ok with this is ridiculous.

If an activity or area can be entered by anyone walking by, it is open. if it is seperate to you or your group, it is instanced. There isn't a spectrum. It's either one or the other.

The risk is it is just as it is possible to have a caravan attacked, it is possible to be killed and looted walking through the hills with your mule. And unlike that caravan, you aren't inherently offering an incentive to anyone for defending you.

No one thinks your last ludicrous assertion. AoC has many intended mechanics that have existed to some degree in modern mmo's, as well as some from much older titles. While WoW, ESO, Guild Wars, and FF, are popular, so many people use that as a reference point. But there are also plenty of people from games like EQ, DAoC, SWTOR, EVE, Lineage, and more. From all the posts i've seen, you seem to have a very rudimentary understanding of the announced mechanics, for how sure you are in your claims.

unknown

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Ventharien

I have never seen someone ask for instanced caravans. The dev team have already stated they intend for the vast majority of the game to be non instanced.

Azryil

Ikcen wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If you are not familiar with the crafting system, there are 3 crafting 'archtypes': gathering, processing, and crafting. Someone has to process raw resources before they can be used in crafting i.e. ore to bars.

I can't find the quote so take this with a grain of salt but I believe there are plans to have at least some processed goods, if not all, that need to be transported by caravan.

On top of this, you might not be able to craft a certain item in the same place you can process the resources so you are forced to use a caravan to move the processed resources to the node you are crafting in.

If the risk is high, the player will not craft. Look at Albion - maybe half of the players stay in the low tier zones, they are relatively safe there, but they earn literally nothing. I could make a million for 20 minutes, they cannot do it for days. Still they do not take he risk.

So, yeah, the corruption system also should make the players feels safer at some degree. Hard task to solve.

Most of the best gear you will be able to obtain will come from crafting, If the risk is high the cost will go up, but it will still be crafted.

unknownsystemerror

I have never seen "most." Instead there will be parity between crafted and dropped.

palabana

Ikcen wrote: »

But this is OW game, the caravans will not be instanced. See if we make everything instanced all issues will be solved. And we will have another poor copy of WoW. But if its OW, as promised, all is linked.

Ikcen wrote: »

You are missing the point. The question is not why the players will attack caravans, but why they will use them, as the caravans could be attacked and looted. And if the caravans cannot be looted then they will become only pointless fancy items - a different skin for your horse. This is the bad way of BDO.

As for the last one, I think the corruption system is too harsh. But that actually depends how fast you will remove the corruption for the first 1-3 PKs. And how much will be chance to drop gear. For the 4th and above - it does not matter, as that is already ganking. But if you have to suicide or to make some quests that take hours to clean the corruption from 1-3 PKs as meanwhile your gear could be looted - forget about any OW PvP.

And that will make the caravans very pointless as no one will risk his mats and items, as to care them solo will bring 0 risk.

Caravans are not merely a means of transportation. By design, it is meant to be a PvP content. Therefore, they will never be instanced.

There are some ways to participate in open world PvP without gaining, corruption. One of them is through attacking and defending Caravans.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

What you've been saying is you want open world PvP. But you don't want the consequences. You also want non-PvP players to be safe, so you want to remove PvP. Guess what, there is such game already. It's called New World.

See what happens when a game try to please everyone.

Makinoji

Why it won't work= bad testing

Why it will work= great testing

How to change it = testing feedback tweaks

why steven will get rid of it? He won't, it'll just be tweaked.

unknown

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palabana

Ikcen wrote: »

palabana wrote: »

What you've been saying is you want open world PvP. But you don't want the consequences. You also want non-PvP players to be safe, so you want to remove PvP. Guess what, there is such game already. It's called New World.

See what happens when a game try to please everyone.

You misunderstand me very bad. I like the consequences and the OW PvP. Just what you call consequences -are actually penalties, and they do not fit well with OW PvP. Put the PK penalties harsh and most player will not PvP. Put them loose, and the players will gank like crazy. What I'm talking is where is the right balance.

The penalties is made to prevent ganking on "meaningless" PvP such as PK to steal mobs. We will see how important or often PK players to steal mobs/resources/etc. will happen. I don't think the penalties are unfit for open world PvP. Without penalties, people will surely gank and PK like there's no tomorrow. With the right amount of penalties, you can still have fun as both PKer and non-PKer. Part of the reason why Corruption system exists is because they want you to focus on sanctioned, "meaningful" open world PvP activities, such as Caravans and Node Sieges, where you won't gain any Corruption.

Finding the right balance, that will happen once Alpha 1 starts as people start killing each other to test the Corruption system. We do not have detailed feedbacks from the PI members who tested the pre-alpha, but I'm sure they have relayed their feedbacks or concerns to Intrepid. At least I. myself don't know about them.

Caeryl

Ikcen wrote: »

palabana wrote: »

What you've been saying is you want open world PvP. But you don't want the consequences. You also want non-PvP players to be safe, so you want to remove PvP. Guess what, there is such game already. It's called New World.

See what happens when a game try to please everyone.

You misunderstand me very bad. I like the consequences and the OW PvP. Just what you call consequences -are actually penalties, and they do not fit well with OW PvP. Put the PK penalties harsh and most players will not PvP. Put them loose, and the players will gank like crazy. What I'm talking is where is the right balance.

Azryil wrote: »

Ikcen wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If you are not familiar with the crafting system, there are 3 crafting 'archtypes': gathering, processing, and crafting. Someone has to process raw resources before they can be used in crafting i.e. ore to bars.

I can't find the quote so take this with a grain of salt but I believe there are plans to have at least some processed goods, if not all, that need to be transported by caravan.

On top of this, you might not be able to craft a certain item in the same place you can process the resources so you are forced to use a caravan to move the processed resources to the node you are crafting in.

If the risk is high, the player will not craft. Look at Albion - maybe half of the players stay in the low tier zones, they are relatively safe there, but they earn literally nothing. I could make a million for 20 minutes, they cannot do it for days. Still they do not take he risk.

So, yeah, the corruption system also should make the players feels safer at some degree. Hard task to solve.

Most of the best gear you will be able to obtain will come from crafting, If the risk is high the cost will go up, but it will still be crafted.

In Albion all the gear, and I mean literally all is crafted by the players.

palabana wrote: »

Caravans are not merely a means of transportation. By design, it is meant to be a PvP content. Therefore, they will never be instanced.

There are some ways to participate in open world PvP without gaining, corruption. One of them is through attacking and defending Caravans.

Sorry to say that, but this sounds stupid. Like - you say OW. But at the same time you think about it as instanced event.

If it is instanced event, it will work exactly like you say - PvP event.

But if it is OW, caravans are linked with the PK penalties, the corruption system, the crafting system, the trade system. So they are not simply PvP event anymore.

Corruption exists to deter meaningless PKing and griefing.

Obviously open world PvP events that Intrepid wants to encourage like caravans will not involve punishment systems.

That doesn’t mean they’re not open world PvP, it means they’re not the pointless open world PvP Intrepid wants to avoid. And yes, no matter what you claim about two players annoying each other, PKing someone over “grind spots” is meaningless PvP, especially when you’re trying to insist that the player specifically didn’t want anything but to annoy you.

unknown

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palabana

Ikcen wrote: »

Similar corruption systems failed in L2 and BDO. But yeah, we do not know the details here yet. Still as I already said - if you have to suicide your character or to do quests with hours to clean first 1-3 PKs - just forget about the OW PvP. It will not happen.

Let's not forget that players are always incentivised to fight back. Halving the death penalties is an offer that everyone would take. If they don't fight back, you don't kill them. You scare them away. If you killed them anyway and gain Corruption, that's your fault. You just have to ask yourself: "Do I really have to kill this person?"

I think you're looking at this game from a solo player point of view. Bringing Caravans means you are encouraged to act as a group and are recommended to hire NPC guards and/or bring friends/other players along. AoC is designed to encourage teamwork and socialisation.

Some stuff may sound "harsh" or "punishing" to you if you view them from a solo-player perspective. That is why, as everyone has said, the game is not going to be for everyone. If you still wish to participate, you will have to try your best to survive on your own.

If you're not looking from a solo player perspective (I'm only making an assumption here), then you'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

palabana

Ikcen wrote: »

palabana wrote: »

Caravans are not merely a means of transportation. By design, it is meant to be a PvP content. Therefore, they will never be instanced.

There are some ways to participate in open world PvP without gaining, corruption. One of them is through attacking and defending Caravans.

Sorry to say that, but this sounds stupid. Like - you say OW. But at the same time you think about it as instanced event.

If it is instanced event, it will work exactly like you say - PvP event.

But if it is OW, caravans are linked with the PK penalties, the corruption system, the crafting system, the trade system. So they are not simply PvP event anymore.

I (and many others) have told you that these sanctioned PvP events are not affected by the Corruption system. Caravans, Sieges and GvG WILL NOT have Corruption. They are still open world PvP, even Caravans, except that you don't gain Corruption by killing players in these events.

unknown

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AntVictus

Ikcen wrote: »

palabana wrote: »

I (and many others) have told you that these sanctioned PvP events are not affected by the Corruption system. Caravans, Sieges and GvG WILL NOT have Corruption. They are still open world PvP, even Caravans, except that you don't gain Corruption by killing players in these events.

Again - if it is OW, it depends from the other features in the game, including the corruption system. You think like that A then B, but alphabet goes to Z. Did I say players get corruption in caravan PvP, GvG or sieges? No.

What I say is, if the there is not ganking, nobody will use caravans, so the caravans are linked to the corruption. If it is OW.

Ah yes...because making 100 trips from A to B is going to be the way to do things. And the REASON we use A To B is because A is the start and B is the destination. It's a literal saying. All of this said, it is NOT sufficient time wise to go and run 100 times from wherever you are to wherever you need things to be, that is why caravans will be used because it saves time.

Your last point on this is complete bubcus. And you have been corrected on this MANY times throughout the last day til now. Please just stop. What you think you're typing isn't logical, nor is it something that is going to happen. Go away Ilcen, come back after you actually read things. F- is your grade.

Can we get this thread closed already?

unknown

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AntVictus

Ikcen wrote: »

palabana wrote: »

Let's not forget that players are always incentivised to fight back. Halving the death penalties is an offer that everyone would take. If they don't fight back, you don't kill them. You scare them away. If you killed them anyway and gain Corruption, that's your fault. You just have to ask yourself: "Do I really have to kill this person?"

I think you're looking at this game from a solo player point of view. Bringing Caravans means you are encouraged to act as a group and are recommended to hire NPC guards and/or bring friends/other players along. AoC is designed to encourage teamwork and socialisation.

Some stuff may sound "harsh" or "punishing" to you if you view them from a solo-player perspective. That is why, as everyone has said, the game is not going to be for everyone. If you still wish to participate, you will have to try your best to survive on your own.

If you're not looking from a solo player perspective (I'm only making an assumption here), then you'll have to wait and see how it pans out.

Honestly I find that way of thinking very weird. Nobody kills anybody in the games. We play with immortal avatars.

So I do not think shall I kill this person, which is a very weird question. I think what is the risk and the reward for me. And if the risk exceeds the reward, I will not take the action.

Also there are people who like to troll, so he will let you PK him, if he believes that you will get bigger penalty. It is not important for me to be good, it is important you to feel bad.

Also there are people who RP. That include gankers, but also pacifists.

And such a system always could be abused. Like - I let you PK my alt, and then I take your gear with my main.

Also nothing encourages team work like the free ganking. So this advertisement is a nonsense.

That isn't how this works, that's how none of this works. You've been told this several times.

Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

And such a system always could be abused. Like - I let you PK my alt, and then I take your gear with my main.

That isn't abusing the system at all, that is the system at work.

It is your choice if you attack that alt or not. If you do, you knew full well what the consequences of that may be - and whether it is the same player on a different character that makes good on that, or a different player on a different character, it makes no difference.

If a player is good enough to goad you in to attacking them on their alt and then killing you on their main, they deserve some of your gear - and if you are ill-disciplined enough to attack that alt, you deserve to lose some gear.

As to your claims that people won't use the caravan system - again, you have not been paying attention.

If you intend on using a mule to transport goods instead of a caravan, you are painting a big target on your back saying "I have lots of resources, and no one protecting me, one hit of corruption for a whole pile of materials right here!". The idea of moving materials between nodes on a mule seems implausible at best to me.

carrying them in your backpack would be more likely. However, it will take time.

Assuming a caravan travels at half the speed of a player characters regular movement speed, if you have a caravan full of materials and need to travel 25 minutes to the node you want them at, that would take 50 minutes in a caravan.

If you attempted to do that just using a backpack, it would take 83 hours - 25 minutes to get from departure to destination, 25 minutes to get back, so 50 minutes for each round trip, then you need to do that trip 100 times as you can carry 100 inventories worth of materials in a caravan. So that is 5,000 minutes, or 83 hours.

So no, people will use caravans.

You may not, but others will.

palabana

Ikcen wrote: »

If it is OW.

It is open world.

Click here to watch the Caravan gameplay from March video. I have timestamped it for you so you can watch the Caravan part immediately.

Click here to watch the Caravan gameplay from latest video. I have timestamped it for you so you can watch the Caravan part immediately.

Ikcen wrote: »

What I say is, if the there is not ganking, nobody will use caravans, so the caravans are linked to the corruption.

I don't know what you're saying anymore. I feel like there's a language barrier preventing both you and me from understanding each other.

Ikcen wrote: »

"...If there is no ganking, nobody will use caravans."

Why? Didn't you just said that nobody will use caravan because it can be attacked? Now you're turning your statements around?

Ikcen wrote: »

"...so the caravans are linked to the corruption."

Caravans does not give you corruption. You do not need to make the player who owns the caravan to be corrupted to steal their stuff from their caravan. Therefore, it is not linked to corruption. All you have to do is destroy their caravan and you will get a portion of the items stored in their caravan. How much is a portion? I don't know.

Ikcen wrote: »

Honestly I find that way of thinking very weird. Nobody kills anybody in the games. We play with immortal avatars.

So I do not think shall I kill this person, which is a very weird question. I think what is the risk and the reward for me. And if the risk exceeds the reward, I will not take the action.

Also there are people who like to troll, so he will let you PK him, if he believes that you will get bigger penalty. It is not important for me to be good, it is important you to feel bad.

Also there are people who RP. That include gankers, but also pacifists.

And such a system always could be abused. Like - I let you PK my alt, and then I take your gear with my main.

Also nothing encourages team work like the free ganking. So this advertisement is a nonsense.

Stop twisting your words. Immortal avatars or not, you're killing the player for your own personal gains. That's the only thing that matters. Yes, you need to think what's the risk and what's the reward, but ultimately, it all comes down to, "Do I need to kill this player or not?" It's the same. When you ask yourself that question, you will definitely think about the risks and the rewards.

When speaking of trolls, I am sure you are speaking on your behalf. I will not kill anyone if they're non-combatant because I do not want to gain any Corruption. That is my stance. You do you. If someone is trolling you to make you PK them, then you're too gullible to be out in the open world. What does it matter anyway? If you want to kill that player, you kill them. Period.

Surely there will be cooldowns to unflag yourself from PvP. If you flag for PvP or attack someone, you should not be able to unflag yourself until another 10-15 minutes. With that cooldown in place, you cannot make me PK you, since you're the one who started the PvP. We're both flagged for PvP. If one of us dies, none of us will get corruption. I don't know if the cooldown already exists but this is one of the thing that any systems designer will think of.

unknown

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