Why Anime related content wont fit into AOC.

Within the last 5 years, there has been an increased influence of eastern themed trends within western society, especially when it comes to gaming and online entertainment. Anime related content can be found all over western games and eastern publishers push their games more and more into the west on console, mobile, and pc.

So why does anime related content not fit within Ashes, as far as I can recall (and correct me if I am wrong) Intrepid wants to bring back the old school feels of an MMORPG and one big subject of that goal will be immersion. In western fantasy games, the amount of ****, fox girl, or stripper armor is zero and you have more focus on Lore as well as relatable characters.

As we can see on our discord we already have members oversexualizing Ashes related characters like Tulnar and so on, In my opinion, Ashes wants to draw a straight Line in the sand and say we are not Like that. Having things like listed above allows the game to become something that is more like an outlet for fetishes than a MMORPG. We do know **** are not in Ashes, in your opinion should Ashes allow more Anime and eastern trends or should they just straight up, stay away from all that.

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Noaani

grisu wrote: »

I'm just saying that it's not anime exclusive. Those are all western publications. Some of them classic literature pieces from well recognized writers.
Some of them long running pop/nerd culture.

Yeah, but they aren't really what we are talking about, are they?

Nagash

I just think BCG has had bad experiences with the fanbase and games in the past and that's what he bases his problem on

Atama

Let’s put it this way, I would be put out if I ran across a 10-year-old catgirl in a maid outfit that barely comes to the top of her thighs, including sheer stockings and a low-cut top, slinging around a giant sword three times her size striped like a candy cane with a huge bow on it. And she is wearing glowing sunglasses. That is far too much anime for a game like AoC.

If that sounds insanely exaggerated, like no MMO would be that ridiculous, I suggest you log onto TERA Online. I didn’t even mention that she rides a duck with an afro and headphones.

Nagash

Atama wrote: »

Let’s put it this way, I would be put out if I ran across a 10-year-old catgirl in a maid outfit that barely comes to the top of her thighs, including sheer stockings and a low-cut top, slinging around a giant sword three times her size striped like a candy cane with a huge bow on it. And she is wearing glowing sunglasses. That is far too much anime for a game like AoC.

If that sounds insanely exaggerated, like no MMO would be that ridiculous, I suggest you log onto TERA Online. I didn’t even mention that she rides a duck with an afro and headphones.

agreed that would be out of place in ashes and I think 90% of people here would agree with you but counting everything connected to anime/manga just seems like a waste.

Ventharien

Nagash wrote: »

agreed that would be out of place in ashes and I think 90% of people here would agree with you but counting everything connected to anime/manga just seems like a waste.

Yeah, with the ren' kai being Asian/Japanese themed, you aren't going to be able to escape anime similarities, since many animes display authentic traditions, dresses, weapons, etc. As well as various myths and monsters. While sure, there are several sub sects in some animes that would not be appropriate in what IS is trying to put together here, Super sexualized demi humans, extreme violence or gore, and cringe worthy old lecherous guys, to name a few.

But i think just cutting any theme that's ever been in an anime is just slowing your creative potential. Why limit your story telling?

Atama

Nagash wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Let’s put it this way, I would be put out if I ran across a 10-year-old catgirl in a maid outfit that barely comes to the top of her thighs, including sheer stockings and a low-cut top, slinging around a giant sword three times her size striped like a candy cane with a huge bow on it. And she is wearing glowing sunglasses. That is far too much anime for a game like AoC.

If that sounds insanely exaggerated, like no MMO would be that ridiculous, I suggest you log onto TERA Online. I didn’t even mention that she rides a duck with an afro and headphones.

agreed that would be out of place in ashes and I think 90% of people here would agree with you but counting everything connected to anime/manga just seems like a waste.

Yes, the argument “it was in anime!” should not be sufficient to exclude things from the game. My example cobbled together a bunch of anime tropes, none of which would fit in AoC (they are either anachronistic or just don’t fit a western fantasy MMO that tries to feel epic and not silly). With the exception of the “catgirl” which would work fine if done right.

All that being said, I don’t think anything that has been said by the developers, or shown in concept art or streams would hint that they are open to it. They seem pretty firm in their aesthetic. Mr. Stufferton (the teddy bear mount for those lucky enough to have never seen him) is the worst exception and seems like an anomaly. The aesthetic for AoC seems to strive for a spectrum between grim and horrific, and inspiring and beautiful, with a plausible level of epic grandeur over all of it. I doubt we have anything to worry about, and I haven’t seen too many people pushing hard for silly tropes on the boards (aside from one old argument about giant swords on a previous incarnation of this board).

Nagash

Atama wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Let’s put it this way, I would be put out if I ran across a 10-year-old catgirl in a maid outfit that barely comes to the top of her thighs, including sheer stockings and a low-cut top, slinging around a giant sword three times her size striped like a candy cane with a huge bow on it. And she is wearing glowing sunglasses. That is far too much anime for a game like AoC.

If that sounds insanely exaggerated, like no MMO would be that ridiculous, I suggest you log onto TERA Online. I didn’t even mention that she rides a duck with an afro and headphones.

agreed that would be out of place in ashes and I think 90% of people here would agree with you but counting everything connected to anime/manga just seems like a waste.

Yes, the argument “it was in anime!” should not be sufficient to exclude things from the game. My example cobbled together a bunch of anime tropes, none of which would fit in AoC (they are either anachronistic or just don’t fit a western fantasy MMO that tries to feel epic and not silly). With the exception of the “catgirl” which would work fine if done right.

All that being said, I don’t think anything that has been said by the developers, or shown in concept art or streams would hint that they are open to it. They seem pretty firm in their aesthetic. Mr. Stufferton (the teddy bear mount for those lucky enough to have never seen him) is the worst exception and seems like an anomaly. The aesthetic for AoC seems to strive for a spectrum between grim and horrific, and inspiring and beautiful, with a plausible level of epic grandeur over all of it. I doubt we have anything to worry about, and I haven’t seen too many people pushing hard for silly tropes on the boards (aside from one old argument about giant swords on a previous incarnation of this board).

I still say some, things could be worked in. as you said ashes does have a grim vibe but so does warhammer a very him and dark universe that has anime/manga content. just look at the ninja rats

grisu

noaani wrote: »

grisu wrote: »

I'm just saying that it's not anime exclusive. Those are all western publications. Some of them classic literature pieces from well recognized writers.
Some of them long running pop/nerd culture.

Yeah, but they aren't really what we are talking about, are they?

Uhm yeah they are exactly what we are talking about. Spiderman literally shoots spiderwebs. Wtf is Poison Ivy? You have beastshapers, and all degrees of animal transformation. If you want to tell me that animals with human traits are entirely different from humans with animal traits then I don't know where you would draw the line. It's on the same scale of non human.
Personification of concepts and anthropomorphism is a classic in literature. Greek/ Roman mythology is full of crosses of humans with animals, Egyption mythology anyone? Everyone should be familiar with at least those and they have been used in all degrees of more/less human throughout history. How is that any different from what "anime" does?

Jamation

Atama wrote: »

They seem pretty firm in their aesthetic. Mr. Stufferton (the teddy bear mount for those lucky enough to have never seen him) is the worst exception and seems like an anomaly.

oh my god...i had never seen him before...my heart. What a precious little bebe. If only I had been born to a rich wizarding family.

noaani wrote: »

If you can find me some popular classic examples of western fantasy literature that are not intended to emulate anime, and involve people wearing cats ears as a general clothing choice, then as far as I am concerned, cats ears in Ashes would be fine. However, if the only examples of that specific clothing choice that can be found are from anime, or are inspired by anime, then I personally think that is where Intrepid should draw a line - arbitrary as it is.

I had posted a reply to this earlier but I think one of the anime terms might be deemed a bad word because I think it got flagged and saved to my drafts instead. But I think this quote helped to clarify the main point a little better. If I'm not mistaken it's less "anime is bad, burn it" and more dependent on what the source material is that made it popular.
Like if we look at elves/pointy ear people, they have heavy western influence like dungeons and dragons, lord of the rings, or star trek to name a few and even though they are popular in Anime now, they've been popularized in western media for a substantial amount of time that they're not uncommon to see.

However, on the other hand the hot topic of cat girls/ears may have been prevalent in a few places of popular media such as cat-woman, cats the musical, or when hermione becomes that gross cat creature after the potion mixup, it was always small or niche cases as opposed to anime where you can find a cat person(usually a female who goes nya or something) in almost every(a lot of) show nowadays.

But I don't think source material should dictate what content is used. I think it should matter more about how it is implemented and presented. I mean there's plenty of popular western trends I'd rather not see.

Ravudha

Nagash wrote: »

I still say some, things could be worked in. as you said ashes does have a grim vibe but so does warhammer a very him and dark universe that has anime/manga content. just look at the ninja rats

Do you mean Skaven assassins or are there actual ninjas now? Assassins could be inspired from several Eastern/Western cultures. In any case, I wouldn't call ninjas 'anime' content; anime has ninjas but didn't invent them.

I don't see AoC having specifically anime-inspired (not Japanese-inspired) costumes and accessories; just doesn't fit anywhere.

Noaani

grisu wrote: »

If you want to tell me that animals with human traits are entirely different from humans with animal traits then I don't know where you would draw the line. It's on the same scale of non human.

I did say I was personally fine with both - assuming a lore based explanation.

Its people wearing cat ear headbands and such that I'm not fine with, or the over-exaggerated facial expressions (and especially the eyes - that is what instantly puts me off anime in general), or the girl-in-sailor-outfit trope.

This isn't a complaint about all things anime - it is saying that there are a few things that are only really found in anime (or are directly inspired by anime) don't belong in Ashes. It honestly isn't even just anime as far as I am concerned - I said in an earlier post that I wouldn't expect to see a Disney style anthropomorphic animal either, because it would fit in to Ashes about as well as an anime waifu with gigantic eyes, blond pigtails, sailors outfit and a miniskirt that barely registers as a belt.

Now, anthropomorphic animals are fine, if done in a way that fits in with Ashes - which means the Disney way of doing them is out (if we have a walking, talking duck, I expect pants). Likewise, if there is a sub-species of Tulnar that have a bit of cat in them, and so these people have cat ears - that's cool. But a head slot item that looks like cat ears?... nope.

grisu

noaani wrote: »

If you can find me some popular classic examples of western fantasy literature that are not intended to emulate anime, and involve people wearing cats ears as a general clothing choice, then as far as I am concerned, cats ears in Ashes would be fine. However, if the only examples of that specific clothing choice that can be found are from anime, or are inspired by anime, then I personally think that is where Intrepid should draw a line - arbitrary as it is.

This is why it's so hard to talk with you, this is where we started, I point a superhero comic specifically and it's not enough somehow. I use all gradiants of western culture to show it's not an anime thing, but somehow nothing is the same, it's not what we are talking about. What's the lore reason behind why batman has a costume with "bat" ears. It's aesthetics nothing else. Cat woman has no cat ears, she just fashioned her costume around her obsession.

You think it's common in anime for characters to run around with cat ear headbands? I can't even think of one where this is a thing.

"a miniskirt that barely registers as belts" Have you gone out of your house in the last 15 years during summer? That's not anime that's ..."fashion".
None of it springs from anime or is commonly found there. Yeah you can find it there if you look around the same way you can find it in any other medium as I have provided plenty of examples already.
Literally the only thing in that sentence that is used quite regular in anime are bigger eyes. Especially in drama driven animes since it's such a good tool to convey emotions and that has been picked up more and more in western too, because it is a damned good tool.

Whether they emulate anime back in 1980/90 or they just thought it's a good idea isn't something I can provide any insight in. Look at the little mermaid, Darwing Duck, Hey Arnold!, Dexter's Laboratory, Toy story. would you consider that normal eye size? Have you watched anything at all that came out in the last 30 years?

Aside from his premise being obviously biased, this is why I wanted BCG to clarify what exactly he means with "anime" because right now as you have so valiantly demonstrated both of you seem to have little to no insight in what is common in anime (or any medium really) that would borderline define anime. All you have provided are some memed examples that crop up from time to time that are getting exaggerated by people that aren't interested in the medium what so ever. None of it springs from anime or are anime exclusive aspects by any stretch of the word.

I think this is funny, i looks funny posted like that, but it's completely ripped out of context and memed to death/ used to highlight how stupid anime is.

I really don't want to defend anime/manga and all the other forms of "non western" medium, either you watch it or you don't, it's not really any of my concern, but this ignorance and bias is why we get such shitty choices of simulcasted shows. This is why we get an "explanatory" video from Netflix about "what is anime" that is so cringe worthy I could cut myself on all the edge just by watching. It's misrepresenting and robs you of a treasure trove of stories told you can't find in other mediums because the general consensus of western publisher is that no one wants to read such stories. Ironic that manga is now in the position of the looked down upon nerd culture of the last 30 years called comics.
I'm definitely out now.

Noaani

grisu wrote: »

This is why it's so hard to talk with you, this is where we started, I point a superhero comic specifically and it's not enough somehow.

As I've said twice - three times now - those things you pointed out are fine.

Those things are not the things we are talking about. Catwoman doesn't walk around Gotham all day wearing cat ears as a fashion choice. What she wears is designed for practicality first, with a very small amount of thematic flair added to top it off.

You think it's common in anime for characters to run around with cat ear headbands? I can't even think of one where this is a thing.

It isn't "just" this, this is just one of many very visible aspects of anime that many people simply detest.

While you may not know any anime characters that run around with headbands, that is hardly worth noting when a simple google search turns up a whole lot of exactly what we are talking about.

I really don't want to defend anime/manga and all the other forms of "non western" medium, either you watch it or you don't

This isn't a "non-western" thing either.

As I've said twice - three times now - Disney type characters would be out of place in Ashes as well, that is about as western as you can get. Further, Asian themes other than anime may well fit in perfectly with Ashes - and I'd happily argue that they would (there is, believe it or not, Eastern culture that is not anime).

I'd very much appreciate you cease with this kind of insinuation. It is neither warranted nor appropriate.

If you want to simply say that we are arguing against the memed examples of anime, then that's fine, all that does is mean that we all know what we are talking about.

I mean, I've said it isn't everything anime, it isn't even just anime. I'm not sure what more to tell you.

Things that don't belong in Ashes don't belong in Ashes.

grisu

Good Google search literally only one character that appears in an anime wears a headband with cat ears. Everything else is either fanmade or actual anatomy.
Like I said most shallow exposure only with no idea what actually is in anime.

grisu

To add to that insult, it happens in one episode only for a cute joke.

Noaani

grisu wrote: »

Good Google search literally only one character that appears in an anime wears a headband with cat ears. Everything else is either fanmade or actual anatomy.
Like I said most shallow exposure only with no idea what actually is in anime.

As I've said many times in this thread, this is one example of things that I, and presumably others, don't want to see.

It doesn't matter if it's anime, it doesn't matter if it's Disney, it doesn't matter if it's DC or Marvel, it is something we don't want to see. I don't care if it was in one show, no shows or every show - it doesn't belong in Ashes. It also doesn't matter if it is only fan art - as we have been saying all along we are also tanking about things along these lines that are INSPIRED by anime - not just things that are directly from it.

I'll be honest, your argument here seems to be little more than a bit of rage that people are - in your view - attacking anime. You seem mostly upset that we don't have as in depth a knowledge of a thing that we obviously don't like as you have of it, which is just odd.

Are you trying to say that you think a headband with cats ears *DOES* belong in Ashes? Because that is the point we are making here and you seem to be trying really hard to argue against it.

GrinningJack

I knew this post would go down this way, just proves a point again. I do agree that there are sexualized images and figures in western media like games and cartoons. But and I want to be clear here, i have never ever seen almost naked, catgirls with huge boobies acting like 12-year-old girls in western media. I might have chosen the wrong title and Anime like any other medium is taken ideas and thoughts from other source material. But to this day I have never seen any story ark or Idea that has not been used in other media before. I have chosen the word trend since I mostly just see oversexualized "anime" schoolgirls in the forefront of the medium, and this trend has sprung over to games in the eastern market, which in my opinion is slowly eating away at the western style of making games. So again in my own personal opinion anime like trends or images should not be in Ashes.

grisu

I have never said or argued for whichever examples you made belong in ashes or not. I quite honestly don't care. It's not up to me what they want to put in.

I only made apparent that the examples given, are not an anime thing. No more no less pointing out your ignorance in the topic.

That you can't follow contextual points you yourself made has always been a problem and the main reason I avoid all topics you are in.

Bcg makes a well reasoned point of his experience and I can agree there. There are trends, maybe sparked through eastern media maybe just popularized in a Manga styled format that are quiet honestly disgusting.
The term **** is a good example of how a normal everyday word was bastardized for a quite borderline illegal trend.
Which is btw a term stemming from a French novel where the now commonly used phrase has the same meaning. Japan's lolitas are something entirely different. Worth a look into that fashion trend. It's something pretty imo.

Sexualization of underage children shouldn't be a topic we have to talk about to know that it's tabboo and belongs nowhere.

Plateau

Jamation

leonerdo wrote: »

Here's four more paragraphs of explanation that is entirely optional and pointless on an internet forum, because no one joins a forum to read lectures

Oh no, I've been reading forums wrong apparently

leonerdo wrote: »

Yeah this is mess. I no longer think this discussion has anything to do with logic or well-defined genres. It's just a mish-mash of people's preferences and what they think "goes too far"

But yeah I agree with this sentiment. I think it's turned more into a debate on what's influenced what, but in the end who cares. The design team is going to make an aesthetically pleasing world that fits in with the written lore and world building they already have. Debating an entire art form for one or two niche points isn't really constructive to anything.

Like what you like.

Don't like what you don't like.

Play the game or don't play the game.

Because in the end this ain't even close to being out yet. So go chew an ice cube.

Child Item