Is there a need for somekind of statistical/breakdown tools, e.g., DMG meters in the game?

The game seems to cater to players that want to seek out insane achievements like becoming a mayor of a great metropolis or a monarch and in this process being rewarded with Royal Mounts only possessed by approximately 0.1% of the concurrent player base. This is a very elitist approach where the risk and effort gives very unique and special rewards.

However, most end-game players love to figure out how to optimize their gear, rotations and in this game, there will extreme diversity through the augment system. As we currently know, no addons will be allowed in the game, which then begs the question - How do we compare players and improve ourselves in the endgame? There seems to be opposition from some part of the player base to include DMG meters and such, as it for some players seems like a very blunt and crude measure. But at some point, people that are trying to progress and push themselves would like to get some tools to do so.

My thoughts on the matter are that it should not be a part of the game as you play it but, e.g., a combat log of sorts where you can look up various stats, that could be overall damage done, healing done, damage taken, buffs/auras used, steps ran (kiting?). As it shouldn't be part of the fight when you're actually playing the game as an addon - but a tool where you can research after an event; what might work well and what might work poorly. This will also add an additional layer of progression for a large set of players that will be able to improve their gameplay by understanding the differences in performance.

I fear that the lack of some kind of breakdown tool will heavily reduce the end-game competitiveness in the game, which would be a shame, as it seems that the better you perform the harder content you fight and the better rewards you get.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

Deztox

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Lincoln Hawk

What do you mean by competitive??

If you are talking about PvE it wont exist for a very long time, all pve worth doing is open world and therefore will be contested.

Mad Doc Ren

DPS meters demand the homogenization of classes, and in a game where there is 64 classes, that is simply not going to happen. There is going to be a lot of blurred lines with the classes in the trinity spectra and there is no way that a DPS meter will give raid groups any indication on who is doing mechanically well in a given encounter based on their chosen playstyle. It is going to demand the creation of metas, which we don't want. DPS meters are going to be useless, it is going to inadvertently try steering the balancing of classes away from heterogeneity, and that is a big no no in AoC.

Deztox

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

What do you mean by competitive??

If you are talking about PvE it won't exist for a very long time, all PVE worth doing is open world and therefore will be contested.

That doesn't take away from the competitiveness in PvE? As far as what Steve said, if some other group does more than 60% of the DMG to a target, they can win the loot despite someone else getting the tag.

Lincoln Hawk

Deztox wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

What do you mean by competitive??

If you are talking about PvE it won't exist for a very long time, all PVE worth doing is open world and therefore will be contested.

That doesn't take away from the competitiveness in PvE? As far as what Steve said, if some other group does more than 60% of the DMG to a target, they can win the loot despite someone else getting the tag.

Right but whats your dps meters worth when instead of going head to head for the boss kill they just attack you?? I know I wouldnt waste time with my group trying to do more dps than another group when I can just kill them.

Deztox

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

Right but whats your dps meters worth when instead of going head to head for the boss kill they just attack you?? I know I wouldnt waste time with my group trying to do more dps than another group when I can just kill them.

Obviously there are many ways to win events, agreed

halbarz

@OP, what you are saying is true. People do want to strive to improve themselves or be the best/optimize their builds but I do believe that addons or DPS meters are not the solution.

People that want to excel at their class will have to do it based on trial and error.
This will be part of the adventure in this game. This will be a lengthy process and it should be!

What would be a solution to not give people the path to glory on a piece of paper but instead a bit more insight is more information on armor types in the description of the skills.

- Skill descriptions: Skill X, does 5% additional damage to those wearing light armor or heavy armor.
- Debuff: Based on your damage output you can destabilize the target this effect is triggered only on bosses and after doing a significant amount of damage in a short time. The debuff mentioned applies by X.
- Monster hunter tab: total damage done to bosses, each time you fight that boss more damage it added up to you to keep track if you care.
- Personal dummies only for the individual houses and can only be used by the owner of the house. You should not see any data or analyze but just at the end when the dummy is down how long it took you.

but personally I still believe that trial and error + your own insight + judgment should be the way to go. This also shows who really is skilled and who is not. Yes, builds might go online but who is to say that it could not be better. with too much insight, it would take away the build crafting in less than a month.

Kohl wrote: »

No matter how you slice it DPS Meter is important for those who are serious to clear certain content.
If the bosses are on a time-limit, at which point they go nuclear and kill everybody, the players have the right to see if everyone in their party is pulling their weight.
I dislike lazy people. But they're there, and they just do the bare minimum. It's not my, or anyone's job to fill in the gap they're leaving.
Make the DPS Meter in game, or consider it a gray area, and only go after people who use the statistics to insult other players.

Anyone that requires a DPS meter to be good at the game is not very skilled and should not be praised for it.
The lazy people are those that use the meters as they cannot be bothered to go through the process of trial and error. Optimizing your character and the path towards that state of perfection is a journey and should not depend on a tool but on your insight and skill!

BlackBrony

Many say there will be a DPS meter whether they want it or not.
On my side I say that even if you knew the perfect combo and gear necessary to output the most maximum damage, you won't use it.
Why would you ask? Gear degrades, so your gear needs to be repaired, and using it for the lulz it's waste of resources.
The game is Open World PvP, even Raids/Dungeons, so if you go around with your PvE build, you'll get destroyed by someone more prepared for PvP. So if you keep this mind you're not using the most uber DPS build, but the one that works for you.
The options are so many that I don't think it would be possible to measure DPS. You can't respec augments so easily either.

If they don't add it, I'm not forced to use it, and if people use it outside the game, I can report them for using third party tools not allowed by the game.
So eventually it might be a really taboo thing that people won't talk about.

Rhaelah

I disagree that this game caters to the elitists. A way to be able to see the overall X done after a fight in-game is basically the same as an addon meter. So, I dont see that happening. As for how youre going to compare players, its really simple. You look at each others gear and see if the stats on this one are better than that one. Or when you cast a spell/use an ability does it deal more or less damage? You can learn and get a feel for how much damage is done(or healing) just by playing your class long enough and watching the targets health bar. And I can assure you, having no meter will not dissuade people from being competitive at all lol.

Ryufu

This game is more so an experience than a competition with your peers. Also, I think we need to be encouraging people to be good teammates, not just good players. Sure, you could look at a combat log and see Player X did 1k damage more than Player Y, but Player X took more damage and ignored an important mechanic that could have wiped the raid. I would take Player Y over Player X any day.

If you seek to improve yourself, you have professions to do... expanding the node to do... exploring the world! This is a new world where there are no Wiki pages that will tell you how to complete a quest or find a specific item. You are able to discover something no one has before. You will always have something to do. Starting a game with your thoughts on the end-game is not the way to go and it will not happen for years anyway.

halbarz

Ryufu wrote: »

This game is more so an experience than a competition with your peers. Also, I think we need to be encouraging people to be good teammates, not just good players. Sure, you could look at a combat log and see Player X did 1k damage more than Player Y, but Player X took more damage and ignored an important mechanic that could have wiped the raid. I would take Player Y over Player X any day.

If you seek to improve yourself, you have professions to do... expanding the node to do... exploring the world! This is a new world where there are no Wiki pages that will tell you how to complete a quest or find a specific item. You are able to discover something no one has before. You will always have something to do. Starting a game with your thoughts on the end-game is not the way to go and it will not happen for years anyway.

Amen!

Asri

Those who want to beat the hardest bosses will probably have to video their runs and review it together as a team for mistakes, mechanics, wins, etc. That will tell you a lot more about your performance together than raw metrics.

*small rant incoming*

I think comparison is the thief of joy. Many if not all hardcore PVE raiders will disagree with me, but they will have DPS meters on the down low anyway.

I feel the wikification of games, and the non-stop stream of content creation on how-to and best-builds have eliminated a lot of the FUN of games, where you learn how to do things by trial and error, alone or as a team. Players grind up meta characters to max level, grind up the meta gear and rush to end game, then complain about content drought after depriving themselves of all the content along the way. Finally they deprive themselves of people to play with by constantly measuring who is elite enough for them to spend time with.

Competitive MMO is kind of an oxymoron, there are too many "win" conditions.

Genaro

As much as DPS meters helps the player, with a quantitative numerical measurement, to improve their skills rotation, combos, etc., it also facilitates the game to gravitate to use optimization as a rule, not as a tool.

META and min-maxing are inevitable. They will always exists, rather you like it or not. But these are suppose serve as tools, not as rules. When you have the extreme optimization as a rule, you just funnels down just a couple of combinations, throwing in the garbage all of the other possible interesting combinations that the game has, with a little chance to make a comeback once the META changes. And that's what 'hardcore' PvE players have been doing in the past years to speedrun the endgame content, in some of the most popular MMORPGs. When you have a high difficulty goal like that, it's fair to try to improve every minimal detail that can help you to get to your goal, so these people who embrace this ideal must have to give up in personal preference in order to reach the objective. What is not fair is when you create a toxic culture around it, in which you push this same behavior to all of your player base, when most of it are just trying to have fun in the game, not accomplishing something as difficult. So the 'normal' people who really likes to play something interesting or/and unique, feel pressured to give up their own preference playstyle just so they can have a place in a group for they being able to play some content, instead of playing the game in a 'normal' pace but actually enjoying doing it with your choice.

I'm not saying that without a DPS meter people won't be able to tell which class combinations, skills combos, etc., is the best, but it will certainly slows down the process of creating a META, by having just a qualitative measurement. Plus, as Ashes will be a new game in the neighbourhood, it will take a long time to stabilish a META, since the game have several multiple combinations possible, with many variables to consider, and even more difficult if the devs keep bringing balance patchs and new content.

Caeryl

CaptainChuck wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.

Information is way more valuable than a few physical items.

Combat logs should be a standard in every game that touts a competitive PvE experience.

TheLegend27

CaptainChuck wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.

Would be interesting if they found a way to sell that information, or embed it into the economy some how. Information tends to be more valuable that physical items (well, IRL).

TheLegend27

Ryufu wrote: »

This game is more so an experience than a competition with your peers. Also, I think we need to be encouraging people to be good teammates, not just good players. Sure, you could look at a combat log and see Player X did 1k damage more than Player Y, but Player X took more damage and ignored an important mechanic that could have wiped the raid. I would take Player Y over Player X any day.

If you seek to improve yourself, you have professions to do... expanding the node to do... exploring the world! This is a new world where there are no Wiki pages that will tell you how to complete a quest or find a specific item. You are able to discover something no one has before. You will always have something to do. Starting a game with your thoughts on the end-game is not the way to go and it will not happen for years anyway.

Where I do agree with you, I feel like everyone has their own take on what "this game is" to them. And they're entitled to such. So to those who have their thoughts on end-game, that's not a bad thing and (imo) much the same "the way to go" as focusing on the progression and character improvement.

I share your sentiments though

. Just to each their own.

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