nelsonrebel wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance? Because if people could measure performance without them, you will get the same situation where all the good players congregate towards good player guilds and all the bad players/new players will be stuck with each other. That will happen without meters as well, unless of course you are agreeing that without meters then there is no quantifiable measurement of player skill. In which case, meters would be a good thing because a lot of people like to measure their own skill. Not everyone wants to be a blissfully ignorant guy who is just content with clearing a menial amount of content. People WILL want to progress, people will want to challenge themselves, and having no combat tracker at all just devalues what they enjoy about MMOs. If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number
Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance? Because if people could measure performance without them, you will get the same situation where all the good players congregate towards good player guilds and all the bad players/new players will be stuck with each other. That will happen without meters as well, unless of course you are agreeing that without meters then there is no quantifiable measurement of player skill. In which case, meters would be a good thing because a lot of people like to measure their own skill. Not everyone wants to be a blissfully ignorant guy who is just content with clearing a menial amount of content. People WILL want to progress, people will want to challenge themselves, and having no combat tracker at all just devalues what they enjoy about MMOs.
Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon.
Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way.
Linstead wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance? Because if people could measure performance without them, you will get the same situation where all the good players congregate towards good player guilds and all the bad players/new players will be stuck with each other. That will happen without meters as well, unless of course you are agreeing that without meters then there is no quantifiable measurement of player skill. In which case, meters would be a good thing because a lot of people like to measure their own skill. Not everyone wants to be a blissfully ignorant guy who is just content with clearing a menial amount of content. People WILL want to progress, people will want to challenge themselves, and having no combat tracker at all just devalues what they enjoy about MMOs. If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number Why does everyone against DPS meters always talk in absolutes? I will still enjoy this game (if it's a good game) with/without DPS meters. But I will also enjoy the competitive aspect of it less because unless there are a bunch of number crunching rain mans constantly coming together to create metas, the PvE will never be as advanced and players will never be as good as they can be. Look at Vanilla WoW for instance. The people who we thought were good back in the day would be considered absolutely garbage at the game today. Raids in Classic WoW end in 20-30minutes and the meta has evolved into speedrunning because the content is too easy and was made decades ago. Ashes will probably be the same situation, where we will think the content is super hard when in reality it's just being tuned for people who don't have the information to properly play their classes to the fullest of their abilities. I want to push my class to it's limits and I would like some sort of challenge in the game for that. Will I quit the game if it doesn't have that cutting edge raid feeling? Probably not if the other aspects of the game are fun/good. I don't need a meter to value an MMO, I don't worship combat trackers, nor do I care that much. But to purposefully remove an entire objective metric from a game and severely hamper the competitive side of MMOs because a bunch of people fearmongering about being kicked by "those meanie elitists!" is really ignorant imo.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » They talk like that because it was never in any mmo they played because the games didn't need them. It's a matter of a system that can ruin the game vs just letting people figure it out themselves without having a meta forced upon them.
SendNodes wrote: » No add on and no real time dps meter. But give us a post combat log, with dps, damage done, healing done, rotation used etc.. so people who want to improve can look and analysis their combat log
nelsonrebel wrote: » If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number. I've never met a true mmo fan that enjoyed the dps number over the artistic value in the game world, or the zone designs, armors, lore, immersion and mechanical design of enemy npcs
nelsonrebel wrote: » Linstead wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance? Because if people could measure performance without them, you will get the same situation where all the good players congregate towards good player guilds and all the bad players/new players will be stuck with each other. That will happen without meters as well, unless of course you are agreeing that without meters then there is no quantifiable measurement of player skill. In which case, meters would be a good thing because a lot of people like to measure their own skill. Not everyone wants to be a blissfully ignorant guy who is just content with clearing a menial amount of content. People WILL want to progress, people will want to challenge themselves, and having no combat tracker at all just devalues what they enjoy about MMOs. If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number Why does everyone against DPS meters always talk in absolutes? I will still enjoy this game (if it's a good game) with/without DPS meters. But I will also enjoy the competitive aspect of it less because unless there are a bunch of number crunching rain mans constantly coming together to create metas, the PvE will never be as advanced and players will never be as good as they can be. Look at Vanilla WoW for instance. The people who we thought were good back in the day would be considered absolutely garbage at the game today. Raids in Classic WoW end in 20-30minutes and the meta has evolved into speedrunning because the content is too easy and was made decades ago. Ashes will probably be the same situation, where we will think the content is super hard when in reality it's just being tuned for people who don't have the information to properly play their classes to the fullest of their abilities. I want to push my class to it's limits and I would like some sort of challenge in the game for that. Will I quit the game if it doesn't have that cutting edge raid feeling? Probably not if the other aspects of the game are fun/good. I don't need a meter to value an MMO, I don't worship combat trackers, nor do I care that much. But to purposefully remove an entire objective metric from a game and severely hamper the competitive side of MMOs because a bunch of people fearmongering about being kicked by "those meanie elitists!" is really ignorant imo. quote the rest of my answer and respond to it fully without pieces of it
Pantease wrote: » SendNodes wrote: » No add on and no real time dps meter. But give us a post combat log, with dps, damage done, healing done, rotation used etc.. so people who want to improve can look and analysis their combat log This sounds like an excellent compromise. nelsonrebel wrote: » If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number. I've never met a true mmo fan that enjoyed the dps number over the artistic value in the game world, or the zone designs, armors, lore, immersion and mechanical design of enemy npcs Gatekeeping who's a "true mmo fan" isn't productive and doesn't support your argument. People enjoy mmos for a large variety of reasons, and those varied reasons lead to discussion like these about what makes up an enjoyable mmo experience. Your way of enjoying mmos is no truer or better than anyone else's.
nelsonrebel wrote: » Pantease wrote: » SendNodes wrote: » No add on and no real time dps meter. But give us a post combat log, with dps, damage done, healing done, rotation used etc.. so people who want to improve can look and analysis their combat log This sounds like an excellent compromise. nelsonrebel wrote: » If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number. I've never met a true mmo fan that enjoyed the dps number over the artistic value in the game world, or the zone designs, armors, lore, immersion and mechanical design of enemy npcs Gatekeeping who's a "true mmo fan" isn't productive and doesn't support your argument. People enjoy mmos for a large variety of reasons, and those varied reasons lead to discussion like these about what makes up an enjoyable mmo experience. Your way of enjoying mmos is no truer or better than anyone else's. But... A dps number meter 😂 come on
Linstead wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » Pantease wrote: » SendNodes wrote: » No add on and no real time dps meter. But give us a post combat log, with dps, damage done, healing done, rotation used etc.. so people who want to improve can look and analysis their combat log This sounds like an excellent compromise. nelsonrebel wrote: » If the value of a grand mmo is tied to number on the meter that really isnt supposed to part of the game worlds immersion and experience. Then it sounds like their enjoyment isnt tied to the mmo, but to the value of an arbitrary number. I've never met a true mmo fan that enjoyed the dps number over the artistic value in the game world, or the zone designs, armors, lore, immersion and mechanical design of enemy npcs Gatekeeping who's a "true mmo fan" isn't productive and doesn't support your argument. People enjoy mmos for a large variety of reasons, and those varied reasons lead to discussion like these about what makes up an enjoyable mmo experience. Your way of enjoying mmos is no truer or better than anyone else's. But... A dps number meter 😂 come on How astute. You're right, I rescind my previous statements. Truly a master debater. I kneel!
nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on
Linstead wrote: » You are being entirely disingenous as many people have pointed out how the "points" you speak of are inherently flawed. Most of the points against DPS meters are based on "muh feelings" with only anecdotal/hypothetical scenarios. Sure, there is some toxicity, but I've played MMOs without combat trackers and there is always toxicity. People will always be toxic, people will always find ways to exclude one another, and even when we bring up suggestions that minimize toxicity people just turn their nose up at it without furthering the discussion. The only other point that has any grounding is the fact that it will evolve a meta too fast, but if that's the case then that is on the developers for trivializing the content because players who want to push their skills will absolutely do it without meters regardless. No one is asking for addons that play the game for you (like deadlybossmods, weakauras, etc) and we already know there is going to be heavy limits on the macro system. Games that have combat trackers don't get instantly figured out. Vanilla WoW had them and people took until 2017 on private servers to develop the current meta in today's game. Other games have had them as well, and none turn into the meta slave dystopia that you people are fearmongering. Also it's really cute that you are intentionally not quoting people who go against your views. It's like those 4chan posters who post with @ instead of >> before the post number so the people don't get a (You). It's very adorable and tells just how salty you are about this discussion. Please though, if you have an actual argument bring it up and discuss it, instead of going "b-b-b-b-but there are arguments, I just won't present them! Source: Dude just trust me"
Linstead wrote: » Why does everyone against DPS meters always talk in absolutes? I will still enjoy this game (if it's a good game) with/without DPS meters. But I will also enjoy the competitive aspect of it less because unless there are a bunch of number crunching rain mans constantly coming together to create metas, the PvE will never be as advanced and players will never be as good as they can be. Look at Vanilla WoW for instance. The people who we thought were good back in the day would be considered absolutely garbage at the game today. Raids in Classic WoW end in 20-30minutes and the meta has evolved into speedrunning because the content is too easy and was made decades ago. Ashes will probably be the same situation, where we will think the content is super hard when in reality it's just being tuned for people who don't have the information to properly play their classes to the fullest of their abilities. I want to push my class to it's limits and I would like some sort of challenge in the game for that. Will I quit the game if it doesn't have that cutting edge raid feeling? Probably not if the other aspects of the game are fun/good. I don't need a meter to value an MMO, I don't worship combat trackers, nor do I care that much. But to purposefully remove an entire objective metric from a game and severely hamper the competitive side of MMOs because a bunch of people fearmongering about being kicked by "those meanie elitists!" is really ignorant imo.
Pantease wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on Trying out different builds and trying to do the best you can is part of the fun and challenge in an mmo for some people, myself included. A DPS meter is a tool people like me use to measure whether I'm doing better by using a different kind of gear or a different set of skills or talents or augments or what-have-you. I take pride in bringing my A game to encounters I do with friends and guildmates, and having the tools to ensure that I am adds to my enjoyment of the game. I have fun trying out silly things and seeing if they're any good. I've spent years in an mmo with DPS meters playing a build that was unorthodox on a spec that was considered underpowered, still knowing that I'm doing well and not holding anyone back BECAUSE I had meters to test with. I got to spend years playing the way I wanted to (which was very much against what was meta and considered good at the time) because I had the tools available to me to test out the build to make sure it was capable. DPS meters have made mmos more fun for me not only because I get to see my improvement, but also because they help me try things out and experiment and play the way I want to without hindering anyone else's enjoyment of the game.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » Sounds more like a flood of WoW players just mad there won't be DPS meters than anything else really. Got a lot of points against it but they advocate for it against those points without addressing the possible negatives.
nelsonrebel wrote: » Pantease wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on Trying out different builds and trying to do the best you can is part of the fun and challenge in an mmo for some people, myself included. A DPS meter is a tool people like me use to measure whether I'm doing better by using a different kind of gear or a different set of skills or talents or augments or what-have-you. I take pride in bringing my A game to encounters I do with friends and guildmates, and having the tools to ensure that I am adds to my enjoyment of the game. I have fun trying out silly things and seeing if they're any good. I've spent years in an mmo with DPS meters playing a build that was unorthodox on a spec that was considered underpowered, still knowing that I'm doing well and not holding anyone back BECAUSE I had meters to test with. I got to spend years playing the way I wanted to (which was very much against what was meta and considered good at the time) because I had the tools available to me to test out the build to make sure it was capable. DPS meters have made mmos more fun for me not only because I get to see my improvement, but also because they help me try things out and experiment and play the way I want to without hindering anyone else's enjoyment of the game. I've said this multiple times now though. I've got no problem with an optional PERSONAL and private source of determining what your damage is that you CHOOSE to share with others if you want Not somethings thats forced on people because one mans a napolean micro manager forcing his measures like epstein himself.
Sangramoire wrote: » Someone still has yet to give a specific situational example in which a tracker would be more beneficial than harmful. I've given multiple of examples of how they are likely to be used in a negative way but I can't really think of any positives. If the positives outweigh the negatives then that's when it would be worth it to have a tracker but so far not a single person has made an argument as to how exactly a combat tracker would be beneficial. In which specific situation would a combat tracker be more beneficial than harmful?
