The problem is that you cannot see the P2W because for you, cosmetics are not an objective in the game, a goal or a form of achievement or success.
From that perspective it is impossible to understand.
And they do it because the Industry decided that it should be so, it makes it convenient to be able to generate a source of extra income.
Selling parts of the game that should be acquired for merit, achievement and dedication through additional payments.
Again, I understand that the Industry exploits this type of practice as it is extremely profitable.
I also understand those who defend it, years have passed since this model, which is not the original, was raised, that generates new generations of consumers used to seeing it as something normal.
I also want to make it clear that my intention is not to change the perception that everyone has regarding P2W, only to share mine and defend it with fundamentals.
Cosmetics for money, from my point of view and that of many others (you can see the links that I contribute so that you see that I am not the only one who thinks this way) are a clear P2W.
This isn't like a pageant where the game gives you a reward for looking a certain way, or leaderboards, or anything else.
All cosmetics do is change what pixel textures are on whatever character you are on.
This isnt about pay to win. This is a question about a concern that you need to pay to look good. That is something we dont know yet but I doubt Steven hasn't already addressed it somewhere already.
The definition of "win" has to have a correlating ingame function within the mmo via a ranking or PvE/PvP item that gives you an advantage to progress further than someone who does not use the cash shop at all.
Example. If I create my own costume and I prefer it over having the other ingame cash shop costume its entirely subjective on that persons point of view but it doesnt have an ingame effect on any leaderboard, rank, item, or game function.
I might think everything you put on is ugly from the cash shop costumes compared to my level 1 armor base game crafted. It doesnt change anything within the game though giving myself a win over another player.
This is why it objectively cannot be pay to win and you're using a term as a veil to generate more conversation as click bait as opposed to asking if the game is pay to look good. Which THAT would be a correct concern.
Unless I'm mistaken there is nothing in the game that changes besides the pixels on your character for using a cosmetic from the cash shop.
I dont mind that you are concerned about the cosmetics being the only way to look good in the game (It is a valid concern) but dont try to incite false anger by using an objectively false statement saying cosmetics in the cash shop are pay to win, when its clearly just an attempt to bring people to your side against the devs by using p2w as a pretext to get people worked up. The way you worded this thread was already a subtle (but clever) attempt at that.
Thankfully I watch Jordon Peterson quite alot so catching these little details is now more of a funny side quest of mine.
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
Well, you've already failed at that, even if they just dropped the idea of the cash shop all together.
I dont think he realized that people within their jobs have to get paid, and that Intrepid still have to pay utilities to pay the bills for their lights, running water and servers. Not to mention upkeep of servers, upgrades and a dozen other things.
The subscripition may help keep content updates going but if theres no profit=theres no demand and the game dies unless steven has a secret swiss bank account offshore somehere dedicated keeping everything free
With a cosmetic only cash shop the worst the game will have is someone has a shinier or bigger looking sword. And I dont like either one of those tbh
and putting a cashshop behind a sub is very much a bad idea, cosmetic are not p2w they dont give anything better then what you already have, i think the way that they are going for now is perfect, this is why WOW is such a sucessfull game.
also the devs already stated that they wont had any kind of quality improvement item in the cashshop such as Inventory slots, RNG loot boxes and XP potions cause it DOES give an advantage over player that dont buy these, putting item liek that in a shop that you have to pay more money to get into will just get the richer player further onti to the than the rest (basically P2W)
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
Well, you've already failed at that, even if they just dropped the idea of the cash shop all together.
It shows that you did not read my previous contributions.
I could have told you that.
Thing is, I don't think you understood what I was saying.
There are already cosmetic items that have been put up for sale that will never be available to obtain again. If you don't have those items now, you never will - as such, your idea of collecting all cosmetic objects that can be used in the game has already failed.
0
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
From that perspective it is impossible to understand.
Sometimes, it is not that others can't see things from ones perspective, but that ones perspective is flawed.
In order to convince us that your perspective is not flawed, you need to convince us that appearances are actually a form of "winning".
The first step to that is to provide us with a singular objective goal that defines this type of "win".
If you can't do that, you have no argument.
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
To achieve this you have to pay since certain usable cosmetics within the game are obtained through additional payments.
Additional payments to achieve a goal or achievement within a game = P2W.
Thats not an ingame objective thats a personal objective with no correlation within the game or ingame systems, npcs, rewards, leaderboards or aknowledgment within the game.
Thats like saying because I want to buy everything in walmart but my skillset is lower and I have less money, so everyone that does get paid more for having a higher skill set shouldnt be able to buy anything from walmart.
Its like saying because I cant pay the monthly sub to play the game, then no one should play the game.
It's not logical, it's not objectively correct, it's not reasonable to call something pay to win just because you want it to be called pay to win when there is no advantageous win condition in existence for a cosmetic only pixel difference.
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
Well, you've already failed at that, even if they just dropped the idea of the cash shop all together.
I dont think he realized that people within their jobs have to get paid, and that Intrepid still have to pay utilities to pay the bills for their lights, running water and servers. Not to mention upkeep of servers, upgrades and a dozen other things.
The subscripition may help keep content updates going but if theres no profit=theres no demand and the game dies unless steven has a secret swiss bank account offshore somehere dedicated keeping everything free
With a cosmetic only cash shop the worst the game will have is someone has a shinier or bigger looking sword. And I dont like either one of those tbh
If you plan to have less than 2,000,000 active subscriptions then financing is not the problem, the problem is not having reached the main objective of the project.
0
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
Well, you've already failed at that, even if they just dropped the idea of the cash shop all together.
I dont think he realized that people within their jobs have to get paid, and that Intrepid still have to pay utilities to pay the bills for their lights, running water and servers. Not to mention upkeep of servers, upgrades and a dozen other things.
The subscripition may help keep content updates going but if theres no profit=theres no demand and the game dies unless steven has a secret swiss bank account offshore somehere dedicated keeping everything free
With a cosmetic only cash shop the worst the game will have is someone has a shinier or bigger looking sword. And I dont like either one of those tbh
If you plan to have less than 2,000,000 active subscriptions then financing is not the problem, the problem is not having reached the main objective of the project.
So how many subs does AoC have or how many subs do they currently have?
Do you have details on how much Intrepid pays their employees and how much each server costs upfront, how much they cost to rent or maintain, how much they had to put in development for all the building and infrastructures, upgrades and optimization for each and every code, item and upgrade. How about the costs for shipping deals for other countries, fees and taxes for all of the items I've already listed above.
Time= money
You're excluding thousands of real world costs and factors and using the sub as a legitimate point with a made up cost to payment point.
And none of that addresses everything else I've stated.
1
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
Well, you've already failed at that, even if they just dropped the idea of the cash shop all together.
I dont think he realized that people within their jobs have to get paid, and that Intrepid still have to pay utilities to pay the bills for their lights, running water and servers. Not to mention upkeep of servers, upgrades and a dozen other things.
The subscripition may help keep content updates going but if theres no profit=theres no demand and the game dies unless steven has a secret swiss bank account offshore somehere dedicated keeping everything free
With a cosmetic only cash shop the worst the game will have is someone has a shinier or bigger looking sword. And I dont like either one of those tbh
If you plan to have less than 2,000,000 active subscriptions then financing is not the problem, the problem is not having reached the main objective of the project.
You’re either trolling or woefully ignorant, though since you didn’t even know AoC has no box cost I’ll assume the latter.
Here is an article talking about active subscriptions in the top MMOs (this is from 2 years ago but it wouldn’t have changed that dramatically between then and now, except maybe WoW getting a resurgence with Classic):
WoW, the top MMO, had around 7M. The second-highest, ESO, had 3M. The third highest was BDO at 2M. Those are the top MMOs. So you think that if AoC doesn’t immediately put itself in the top 3 MMOs in the entire world it’s a failure?!
Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre as this thread goes on.
2
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
Well, you've already failed at that, even if they just dropped the idea of the cash shop all together.
I dont think he realized that people within their jobs have to get paid, and that Intrepid still have to pay utilities to pay the bills for their lights, running water and servers. Not to mention upkeep of servers, upgrades and a dozen other things.
The subscripition may help keep content updates going but if theres no profit=theres no demand and the game dies unless steven has a secret swiss bank account offshore somehere dedicated keeping everything free
With a cosmetic only cash shop the worst the game will have is someone has a shinier or bigger looking sword. And I dont like either one of those tbh
If you plan to have less than 2,000,000 active subscriptions then financing is not the problem, the problem is not having reached the main objective of the project.
WoW, the top MMO, had around 7M. The second-highest, ESO, had 3M. The third highest was BDO at 2M. Those are the top MMOs. So you think that if AoC doesn’t immediately put itself in the top 3 MMOs in the entire world it’s a failure?!
Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre as this thread goes on.
Good info by the way.
The bizarness these days on the net is just a consequence of the state of the world and society I guess.
Splitting the payment model among multiple tiers isn't exactly a good idea lest you inevitably stratify your playerbase and divide them by money spent on the game.
Your construction of what pay to win means is fundamentally flawed, it can be generally understood to mean paying for an in-game advantage with real money or a real money equivalent. What constitutes an 'advantage' may depend on the particular player and their playstyle, but generally when you discuss paying for an advantage in a videogame, you're usually talking about the game part of the videogame and how its systems and mechanics interact with your payment model.
It is generally accepted that costumes and cosmetics which do not carry in-game functionality beyond appearance do not constitute 'an advantage', however personally I feel that it is a problem if a cash shop is the ONLY meaningful way to acquire cosmetics.
If you plan to have less than 2,000,000 active subscriptions then financing is not the problem, the problem is not having reached the main objective of the project.
You cannot conflate gross income with net income, it doesn't work like that.
3
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm now going to specifically request a personal plain rock to purchase from the game store that only I can get as a pre-order just so you cannot win the game.
@StevenSharif can I get a plain rock please in my honor?
1
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't know that I have anything particularly productive to add to this subject, but I would seek to offer a grain of sand into a specific scale to increase its weight. I have always, and will always prefer and almost solely stick to games which offer a subscription model(when it comes to mmorpgs) - and do not have game altering micro-transactions. In fact, if I see free to play - and I see a cash shop, I run the other way. I stuck with UO, EQ, WoW, and FFXIV for the longest out of all the mmo's I've ever played. Games which largely did - or still do until this day, hold the subscription model.
0
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't know that I have anything particularly productive to add to this subject, but I would seek to offer a grain of sand into a specific scale to increase its weight. I have always, and will always prefer and almost solely stick to games which offer a subscription model(when it comes to mmorpgs) - and do not have game altering micro-transactions. In fact, if I see free to play - and I see a cash shop, I run the other way. I stuck with UO, EQ, WoW, and FFXIV for the longest out of all the mmo's I've ever played. Games which largely did - or still do until this day, hold the subscription model.
That at least is a reasonable argument to make.
To play or not to play a game for having a cash shop is a personal decision that only an individual can decide if they like or dont like.
You are absolutelly right, the pay to win tag means any king of advantage you will get in game after a payment.
Then ... what the Store is? What do you get from the store? it isn't clear ... or i didn't understood xD .
I whould like just one method of payment. 15 $ x month, or maybe 150 $ x a year, or also maybe 5 $ for a week. Then no more ... optional payment are called donations for me. To mantein the game alive .. if someone that has the money want to help the devs and the game he can donate. Like wikipedia and other free services do.
1
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You are absolutelly right, the pay to win tag means any king of advantage you will get in game after a payment.
Then ... what the Store is? What do you get from the store? it isn't clear ... or i didn't understood xD .
I whould like just one method of payment. 15 $ x month, or maybe 150 $ x a year, or also maybe 5 $ for a week. Then no more ... optional payment are called donations for me. To mantein the game alive .. if someone that has the money want to help the devs and the game he can donate. Like wikipedia and other free services do.
The problem with that is that people there work, and their work costs time and ingame development for coding items and cosmetics in the game.
Thats kind of like asking to pay a one time fee to enter into a store and let donations to the store keep the workers paid, and the utilties, infrastructure, government taxes for being a company, and licensing and let donations pay for it all.
See the issue? Being a company costs several different costs ranging from states to federal levels, along with taxes. The Sub cost up front will never keep up with changing costs let alone the salaries to keep, and grow more employee's and expand their server locations etc...
Profit is the driving force behind quality products in our society. Thats just the way it is until the basics of economies change in society across the board.
Why do people feel the need to "own" every cosmetic in a game? Genuine question, I think some human minds are too tied to the feeling of full property.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Why do people feel the need to "own" every cosmetic in a game? Genuine question, I think some human minds are too tied to the feeling of full property.
Why people feel the need to win every PvP fight?
Why people feel the need to be the first to kill a Boss?
Why people feel the need to be a King/Queen?
Why people feel the need to own the best gear?
Why people feel the need to be the Market ruler?
Why people feel the need to own a exclusive Package?
You are absolutelly right, the pay to win tag means any king of advantage you will get in game after a payment.
Then ... what the Store is? What do you get from the store? it isn't clear ... or i didn't understood xD .
I whould like just one method of payment. 15 $ x month, or maybe 150 $ x a year, or also maybe 5 $ for a week. Then no more ... optional payment are called donations for me. To mantein the game alive .. if someone that has the money want to help the devs and the game he can donate. Like wikipedia and other free services do.
The stores are the abuse on a real need of many players, a need removed from the base game, presented as something irrelevant and commercialized.
Many argue they want to support the company when in reality there is more than that in the action of buying, receiving something exclusive, something that others cannot have and being able to show it in the game.
Because the hidden reality is that the sale of cosmetics is profitable because they do count in the gaming experience.
Only that it is not intended to be accepted.
A system of donations without any exclusive benefit in return would never be so profitable.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because dying leads to a loss of time from respawning. Because there are death penalties. Because winning a PvP fight could earn you a reward of some kind. Because beating someone means you were objectively better than them.
Why people feel the need to be the first to kill a Boss?
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because getting better gear before other people can lead to further success. Because it shows off that they/their group is objectively more skills than other players.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because being a King/Queen means you can dictate rules other people have to follow. Because being the highest rank in any given category objectively shows that you are better than other people in some way.
Because having your character be stronger than other characters is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because having better/the best gear can potentially lead to further success. Because they are able to know that they achieved something that most other people won't.
Because ruling a market is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because ruling a market means you can earn even more money, faster. Because having more money than other players is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success.
Why people feel the need to own a exclusive Package?
Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics.
Notice that the first 5 all have objective measurements. The last only has wants, feelings, and likes.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because dying leads to a loss of time from respawning. Because there are death penalties. Because winning a PvP fight could earn you a reward of some kind. Because beating someone means you were objectively better than them.
Why people feel the need to be the first to kill a Boss?
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because getting better gear before other people can lead to further success. Because it shows off that they/their group is objectively more skills than other players.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because being a King/Queen means you can dictate rules other people have to follow. Because being the highest rank in any given category objectively shows that you are better than other people in some way.
Because having your character be stronger than other characters is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because having better/the best gear can potentially lead to further success. Because they are able to know that they achieved something that most other people won't.
Because ruling a market is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because ruling a market means you can earn even more money, faster. Because having more money than other players is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success.
Why people feel the need to own a exclusive Package?
Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics.
Notice that the first 5 all have objective measurements. The last only has wants, feelings, and likes.
¨Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics¨
1- Because they want to support the developer:
Put "empty" packages of up to 500usd on Kickstarter or 375usd in the game store to see how many users show their ¨support¨ ...
2- Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money:
If what the packages have is worth their money, it is because these packages have valuables, if those valuables enter the game they become valuables in the game, if they have value they are desired, if other users wish to acquire them and cannot access those valuables within the game because they did not put extra money outside of it, we are facing a P2W.
3- Because the like the look of the cosmetics:
If they like the appearances of cosmetics, it is because they are attractive, desired, if attractive or desired objects enter the game they become the object of desire for those who set their goal on collecting the largest amount of cosmetic objects, if they cannot do so because they do not put extra money, this is a P2W.
Congratulations, you have discovered the hidden secret of P2W in cosmetics.
@Elder Soul
Ah, so in your opinion purchasing cosmetics from the Cash Shop while not having it freely included in a higher-value subscription fee is considered Pay To Win?
I don't see it as an advantage, though. Purchasing cosmetics doesn't enhance my character in any way that gives me an advantage over other people who do not buy such cosmetic stuff.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because dying leads to a loss of time from respawning. Because there are death penalties. Because winning a PvP fight could earn you a reward of some kind. Because beating someone means you were objectively better than them.
Why people feel the need to be the first to kill a Boss?
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because getting better gear before other people can lead to further success. Because it shows off that they/their group is objectively more skills than other players.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because being a King/Queen means you can dictate rules other people have to follow. Because being the highest rank in any given category objectively shows that you are better than other people in some way.
Because having your character be stronger than other characters is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because having better/the best gear can potentially lead to further success. Because they are able to know that they achieved something that most other people won't.
Because ruling a market is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because ruling a market means you can earn even more money, faster. Because having more money than other players is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success.
Why people feel the need to own a exclusive Package?
Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics.
Notice that the first 5 all have objective measurements. The last only has wants, feelings, and likes.
¨Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics¨
1- Because they want to support the developer:
Put "empty" packages of up to 500usd on Kickstarter or 375usd in the game store to see how many users show their ¨support¨ ...
2- Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money:
If what the packages have is worth their money, it is because these packages have valuables, if those valuables enter the game they become valuables in the game, if they have value they are desired, if other users wish to acquire them and cannot access those valuables within the game because they did not put extra money outside of it, we are facing a P2W.
3- Because the like the look of the cosmetics:
If they like the appearances of cosmetics, it is because they are attractive, desired, if attractive or desired objects enter the game they become the object of desire for those who set their goal on collecting the largest amount of cosmetic objects, if they cannot do so because they do not put extra money, this is a P2W.
Congratulations, you have discovered the hidden secret of P2W in cosmetics.
Eldersoul I think the point you are missing is that it must provide some form of practical/mechanical benefit to a player for it to be P2W. If a cosmetic provides +3 Armor or +3 damage that is P2W, if it doesn't it isn't P2W.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
0
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm still wondering what hes going to do if I get an exclusive rock of my own.
How will he live with the pay to win of my cosmetic rock pixels
Comments
This isn't like a pageant where the game gives you a reward for looking a certain way, or leaderboards, or anything else.
All cosmetics do is change what pixel textures are on whatever character you are on.
This isnt about pay to win. This is a question about a concern that you need to pay to look good. That is something we dont know yet but I doubt Steven hasn't already addressed it somewhere already.
The definition of "win" has to have a correlating ingame function within the mmo via a ranking or PvE/PvP item that gives you an advantage to progress further than someone who does not use the cash shop at all.
Example. If I create my own costume and I prefer it over having the other ingame cash shop costume its entirely subjective on that persons point of view but it doesnt have an ingame effect on any leaderboard, rank, item, or game function.
I might think everything you put on is ugly from the cash shop costumes compared to my level 1 armor base game crafted. It doesnt change anything within the game though giving myself a win over another player.
This is why it objectively cannot be pay to win and you're using a term as a veil to generate more conversation as click bait as opposed to asking if the game is pay to look good. Which THAT would be a correct concern.
Unless I'm mistaken there is nothing in the game that changes besides the pixels on your character for using a cosmetic from the cash shop.
I dont mind that you are concerned about the cosmetics being the only way to look good in the game (It is a valid concern) but dont try to incite false anger by using an objectively false statement saying cosmetics in the cash shop are pay to win, when its clearly just an attempt to bring people to your side against the devs by using p2w as a pretext to get people worked up. The way you worded this thread was already a subtle (but clever) attempt at that.
Thankfully I watch Jordon Peterson quite alot so catching these little details is now more of a funny side quest of mine.
Objetive: Get all the cosmetic objects that can be used within the game.
To achieve this you have to pay since certain usable cosmetics within the game are obtained through additional payments.
Additional payments to achieve a goal or achievement within a game = P2W.
I dont think he realized that people within their jobs have to get paid, and that Intrepid still have to pay utilities to pay the bills for their lights, running water and servers. Not to mention upkeep of servers, upgrades and a dozen other things.
The subscripition may help keep content updates going but if theres no profit=theres no demand and the game dies unless steven has a secret swiss bank account offshore somehere dedicated keeping everything free
With a cosmetic only cash shop the worst the game will have is someone has a shinier or bigger looking sword. And I dont like either one of those tbh
It shows that you did not read my previous contributions.
They explain in detail what is a great discovery for you.
Now that I have given you a specific objective, I think the P2W aspect is clear.
already this is wrong, the game wont have any box cost its only gonna be a 15$ subscription, all this information is stated in the wiki https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Subscription_model
and putting a cashshop behind a sub is very much a bad idea, cosmetic are not p2w they dont give anything better then what you already have, i think the way that they are going for now is perfect, this is why WOW is such a sucessfull game.
also the devs already stated that they wont had any kind of quality improvement item in the cashshop such as Inventory slots, RNG loot boxes and XP potions cause it DOES give an advantage over player that dont buy these, putting item liek that in a shop that you have to pay more money to get into will just get the richer player further onti to the than the rest (basically P2W)
Thing is, I don't think you understood what I was saying.
There are already cosmetic items that have been put up for sale that will never be available to obtain again. If you don't have those items now, you never will - as such, your idea of collecting all cosmetic objects that can be used in the game has already failed.
Thats not an ingame objective thats a personal objective with no correlation within the game or ingame systems, npcs, rewards, leaderboards or aknowledgment within the game.
Thats like saying because I want to buy everything in walmart but my skillset is lower and I have less money, so everyone that does get paid more for having a higher skill set shouldnt be able to buy anything from walmart.
Its like saying because I cant pay the monthly sub to play the game, then no one should play the game.
It's not logical, it's not objectively correct, it's not reasonable to call something pay to win just because you want it to be called pay to win when there is no advantageous win condition in existence for a cosmetic only pixel difference.
2000000 suscriptions * 15usd * 12 months = 360000000 per year.
If you plan to have less than 2,000,000 active subscriptions then financing is not the problem, the problem is not having reached the main objective of the project.
So how many subs does AoC have or how many subs do they currently have?
Do you have details on how much Intrepid pays their employees and how much each server costs upfront, how much they cost to rent or maintain, how much they had to put in development for all the building and infrastructures, upgrades and optimization for each and every code, item and upgrade. How about the costs for shipping deals for other countries, fees and taxes for all of the items I've already listed above.
Time= money
You're excluding thousands of real world costs and factors and using the sub as a legitimate point with a made up cost to payment point.
And none of that addresses everything else I've stated.
Here is an article talking about active subscriptions in the top MMOs (this is from 2 years ago but it wouldn’t have changed that dramatically between then and now, except maybe WoW getting a resurgence with Classic):
https://altarofgaming.com/all-mmos-sorted-by-population-2018/
WoW, the top MMO, had around 7M. The second-highest, ESO, had 3M. The third highest was BDO at 2M. Those are the top MMOs. So you think that if AoC doesn’t immediately put itself in the top 3 MMOs in the entire world it’s a failure?!
Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre as this thread goes on.
Good info by the way.
The bizarness these days on the net is just a consequence of the state of the world and society I guess.
Your construction of what pay to win means is fundamentally flawed, it can be generally understood to mean paying for an in-game advantage with real money or a real money equivalent. What constitutes an 'advantage' may depend on the particular player and their playstyle, but generally when you discuss paying for an advantage in a videogame, you're usually talking about the game part of the videogame and how its systems and mechanics interact with your payment model.
It is generally accepted that costumes and cosmetics which do not carry in-game functionality beyond appearance do not constitute 'an advantage', however personally I feel that it is a problem if a cash shop is the ONLY meaningful way to acquire cosmetics.
You cannot conflate gross income with net income, it doesn't work like that.
I'm now going to specifically request a personal plain rock to purchase from the game store that only I can get as a pre-order just so you cannot win the game.
@StevenSharif can I get a plain rock please in my honor?
That at least is a reasonable argument to make.
To play or not to play a game for having a cash shop is a personal decision that only an individual can decide if they like or dont like.
Then ... what the Store is? What do you get from the store? it isn't clear ... or i didn't understood xD .
I whould like just one method of payment. 15 $ x month, or maybe 150 $ x a year, or also maybe 5 $ for a week. Then no more ... optional payment are called donations for me. To mantein the game alive .. if someone that has the money want to help the devs and the game he can donate. Like wikipedia and other free services do.
The problem with that is that people there work, and their work costs time and ingame development for coding items and cosmetics in the game.
Thats kind of like asking to pay a one time fee to enter into a store and let donations to the store keep the workers paid, and the utilties, infrastructure, government taxes for being a company, and licensing and let donations pay for it all.
See the issue? Being a company costs several different costs ranging from states to federal levels, along with taxes. The Sub cost up front will never keep up with changing costs let alone the salaries to keep, and grow more employee's and expand their server locations etc...
Profit is the driving force behind quality products in our society. Thats just the way it is until the basics of economies change in society across the board.
I heard a bird ♫
Why people feel the need to win every PvP fight?
Why people feel the need to be the first to kill a Boss?
Why people feel the need to be a King/Queen?
Why people feel the need to own the best gear?
Why people feel the need to be the Market ruler?
Why people feel the need to own a exclusive Package?
Why people feel?
The stores are the abuse on a real need of many players, a need removed from the base game, presented as something irrelevant and commercialized.
Many argue they want to support the company when in reality there is more than that in the action of buying, receiving something exclusive, something that others cannot have and being able to show it in the game.
Because the hidden reality is that the sale of cosmetics is profitable because they do count in the gaming experience.
Only that it is not intended to be accepted.
A system of donations without any exclusive benefit in return would never be so profitable.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because getting better gear before other people can lead to further success. Because it shows off that they/their group is objectively more skills than other players.
Because leaderboards are a thing, and are an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because being a King/Queen means you can dictate rules other people have to follow. Because being the highest rank in any given category objectively shows that you are better than other people in some way.
Because having your character be stronger than other characters is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because having better/the best gear can potentially lead to further success. Because they are able to know that they achieved something that most other people won't.
Because ruling a market is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success. Because ruling a market means you can earn even more money, faster. Because having more money than other players is an objective, quantifiable measurement of success.
Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics.
Notice that the first 5 all have objective measurements. The last only has wants, feelings, and likes.
¨Because they want to support the developer. Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money. Because the like the look of the cosmetics¨
1- Because they want to support the developer:
Put "empty" packages of up to 500usd on Kickstarter or 375usd in the game store to see how many users show their ¨support¨ ...
2- Because the feel anything included in the package is worth their money:
If what the packages have is worth their money, it is because these packages have valuables, if those valuables enter the game they become valuables in the game, if they have value they are desired, if other users wish to acquire them and cannot access those valuables within the game because they did not put extra money outside of it, we are facing a P2W.
3- Because the like the look of the cosmetics:
If they like the appearances of cosmetics, it is because they are attractive, desired, if attractive or desired objects enter the game they become the object of desire for those who set their goal on collecting the largest amount of cosmetic objects, if they cannot do so because they do not put extra money, this is a P2W.
Congratulations, you have discovered the hidden secret of P2W in cosmetics.
Ah, so in your opinion purchasing cosmetics from the Cash Shop while not having it freely included in a higher-value subscription fee is considered Pay To Win?
I don't see it as an advantage, though. Purchasing cosmetics doesn't enhance my character in any way that gives me an advantage over other people who do not buy such cosmetic stuff.
I heard a bird ♫
Eldersoul I think the point you are missing is that it must provide some form of practical/mechanical benefit to a player for it to be P2W. If a cosmetic provides +3 Armor or +3 damage that is P2W, if it doesn't it isn't P2W.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
How will he live with the pay to win of my cosmetic rock pixels
FFXIV has a hopping rock as a miniature pet and I really love it.
I heard a bird ♫
At this point, if you get your rock, I would gladly pay a bit of money to get my own, slightly different, exclusive rock.