Neurath wrote: » Fuck that. I will main Bard and I do not agree Bard should be removed. Thankfully, we have Jeff Bard who worked on Everquest and Jeff understands the use of Bards.
Warth wrote: » debase wrote: » I don't think 8 classes is too many at all. While I also am not arguing about needing more, I do find it interesting that for a trinity based game, there are seemingly 1 (1.5 maybe with Bard?) primary healing option, 1-1.5 (Tank/Fighter?) primary tank options, then 6 damage dealers with varying utility and flavor. Not to say this is a problem per se with subclass options, but I certainly wonder whether there will be class distribution challenges. The other interesting question is how different the same class/subclass pairings will feel. For example, how different will a Rogue/Fighter (Duelist) feel from a Fighter/Rogue (Shadowblade). I think 1:1:6 almost fits the ratio of tanks:healer:dps in other games. I'd hope that this alleviates the classic lack of tanks and healers to a certain extend.
debase wrote: » I don't think 8 classes is too many at all. While I also am not arguing about needing more, I do find it interesting that for a trinity based game, there are seemingly 1 (1.5 maybe with Bard?) primary healing option, 1-1.5 (Tank/Fighter?) primary tank options, then 6 damage dealers with varying utility and flavor. Not to say this is a problem per se with subclass options, but I certainly wonder whether there will be class distribution challenges. The other interesting question is how different the same class/subclass pairings will feel. For example, how different will a Rogue/Fighter (Duelist) feel from a Fighter/Rogue (Shadowblade).
Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies.
Attar wrote: » The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies.
Aeri wrote: » Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies. That's not really a fair way to look at classes in WoW. With the way that game is designed, you basically need to look at the individual specs to do any sort of comparison. Broken down that like, you have 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 24 dps. Each role has 1/6 of the total. Since each group can only have 5 players in it, and 1 slot each is taken up by a tank and healer, you have 24 classes competing for 3 DPS slots. AoC will have 8-player groups, which means an even split of space between all primary archetypes. If there are any situations where a particular subclass enables an archetype to viably perform a different role (i.e., if Fighter/Tank could be a viable main-tank) then things would actually be weighted away from having an overabundance of DPS.
Attar wrote: » Aeri wrote: » Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies. That's not really a fair way to look at classes in WoW. With the way that game is designed, you basically need to look at the individual specs to do any sort of comparison. Broken down that like, you have 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 24 dps. Each role has 1/6 of the total. Since each group can only have 5 players in it, and 1 slot each is taken up by a tank and healer, you have 24 classes competing for 3 DPS slots. AoC will have 8-player groups, which means an even split of space between all primary archetypes. If there are any situations where a particular subclass enables an archetype to viably perform a different role (i.e., if Fighter/Tank could be a viable main-tank) then things would actually be weighted away from having an overabundance of DPS. As i said, you can change specs in wow, so it's not 1:1:6. Only 3 classes cannot tank or heal, and they still have a role shortage problem. You can't look at individual specs when players are not locked into those specs.
Aardvark wrote: » Attar wrote: » Aeri wrote: » Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies. That's not really a fair way to look at classes in WoW. With the way that game is designed, you basically need to look at the individual specs to do any sort of comparison. Broken down that like, you have 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 24 dps. Each role has 1/6 of the total. Since each group can only have 5 players in it, and 1 slot each is taken up by a tank and healer, you have 24 classes competing for 3 DPS slots. AoC will have 8-player groups, which means an even split of space between all primary archetypes. If there are any situations where a particular subclass enables an archetype to viably perform a different role (i.e., if Fighter/Tank could be a viable main-tank) then things would actually be weighted away from having an overabundance of DPS. As i said, you can change specs in wow, so it's not 1:1:6. Only 3 classes cannot tank or heal, and they still have a role shortage problem. You can't look at individual specs when players are not locked into those specs. That is only true in the super dumbed down new wow. That was not true at all in vanilla.
Attar wrote: » Aardvark wrote: » Attar wrote: » Aeri wrote: » Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies. That's not really a fair way to look at classes in WoW. With the way that game is designed, you basically need to look at the individual specs to do any sort of comparison. Broken down that like, you have 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 24 dps. Each role has 1/6 of the total. Since each group can only have 5 players in it, and 1 slot each is taken up by a tank and healer, you have 24 classes competing for 3 DPS slots. AoC will have 8-player groups, which means an even split of space between all primary archetypes. If there are any situations where a particular subclass enables an archetype to viably perform a different role (i.e., if Fighter/Tank could be a viable main-tank) then things would actually be weighted away from having an overabundance of DPS. As i said, you can change specs in wow, so it's not 1:1:6. Only 3 classes cannot tank or heal, and they still have a role shortage problem. You can't look at individual specs when players are not locked into those specs. That is only true in the super dumbed down new wow. That was not true at all in vanilla. Except i played wow since launch, you could Respec
Aardvark wrote: » Attar wrote: » Aardvark wrote: » Attar wrote: » Aeri wrote: » Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies. That's not really a fair way to look at classes in WoW. With the way that game is designed, you basically need to look at the individual specs to do any sort of comparison. Broken down that like, you have 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 24 dps. Each role has 1/6 of the total. Since each group can only have 5 players in it, and 1 slot each is taken up by a tank and healer, you have 24 classes competing for 3 DPS slots. AoC will have 8-player groups, which means an even split of space between all primary archetypes. If there are any situations where a particular subclass enables an archetype to viably perform a different role (i.e., if Fighter/Tank could be a viable main-tank) then things would actually be weighted away from having an overabundance of DPS. As i said, you can change specs in wow, so it's not 1:1:6. Only 3 classes cannot tank or heal, and they still have a role shortage problem. You can't look at individual specs when players are not locked into those specs. That is only true in the super dumbed down new wow. That was not true at all in vanilla. Except i played wow since launch, you could Respec Early on only Druids and Priests were raid healers, then pallys got in on it but each had their own value and since cross class heals stacked and same heals did not you wanted wanted 1 of each on the main tank. Druids and Pallys could not tank more than 5 mans for long time. Rogues could not for a long time. Mages and Warlocks were not tanks or healers either.
Attar wrote: » Aardvark wrote: » Attar wrote: » Aardvark wrote: » Attar wrote: » Aeri wrote: » Attar wrote: » Actually, in WOW, you have 6 classes that can tank, 5 classes that can heal, and just 3 classes that can only DPS, and still there's a large discrepancy in wait times due to role shortages. The point is, in other games, you can have multiple specs and roles, but in this game you have 1, which will greatly exacerbate the role ratio discrepancies. That's not really a fair way to look at classes in WoW. With the way that game is designed, you basically need to look at the individual specs to do any sort of comparison. Broken down that like, you have 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 24 dps. Each role has 1/6 of the total. Since each group can only have 5 players in it, and 1 slot each is taken up by a tank and healer, you have 24 classes competing for 3 DPS slots. AoC will have 8-player groups, which means an even split of space between all primary archetypes. If there are any situations where a particular subclass enables an archetype to viably perform a different role (i.e., if Fighter/Tank could be a viable main-tank) then things would actually be weighted away from having an overabundance of DPS. As i said, you can change specs in wow, so it's not 1:1:6. Only 3 classes cannot tank or heal, and they still have a role shortage problem. You can't look at individual specs when players are not locked into those specs. That is only true in the super dumbed down new wow. That was not true at all in vanilla. Except i played wow since launch, you could Respec Early on only Druids and Priests were raid healers, then pallys got in on it but each had their own value and since cross class heals stacked and same heals did not you wanted wanted 1 of each on the main tank. Druids and Pallys could not tank more than 5 mans for long time. Rogues could not for a long time. Mages and Warlocks were not tanks or healers either. But it's not like that now, and there are still LFG/LFR wait issues due to roles.
CaptnChuck wrote: » The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s, shows that they don't yet know how to balance abilities effectively. Only select few abilities should root/slow you. You shouldn't use animation lock as the primary way to balance a high dmg ability. You could reduce the hitbox of the ability, give it a high mana cost, give it a high cd or even make it a chargeable ability instead. There are so many ways to do it, yet they opt to use animation lock as the primary balance tool. This shows that they still need to gain a ton of feedback on the combat system, and will most likely need to reiterate on the majority of these abilities, based on the footage that they've shown us so far. Imagine how long it would take to reiterate abilities for 64 classes as opposed to doing it for 36.
CaptnChuck wrote: » The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s, shows that they don't yet know how to balance abilities effectively. Only select few abilities should root/slow you.
apmax wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s, shows that they don't yet know how to balance abilities effectively. Only select few abilities should root/slow you. It really sounds like you think you know what you're talking about but, in fact, do not in the slightest know what you're talking about. Simply being unable to move while casting a skill without canceling your cast is in no way unusual or out of the ordinary for an MMO, including MMOs that feature more action-oriented combat, and ultimately it says nothing about the "balance" of the game to point out that you cannot move while casting without canceling your cast.
