Do you think that there are not 17k potential users as clients who are against the sale of cosmetics and micropayments?
...my interpretation is to use the funds that were already had to achieve the base of the proposed game in a robust way...
..finance the development of new content by way of expansions (in this case with the money generated by attracting more customers by not incorporating micropayments and a store).
In the case of projecting the need to increase billing, generate donation packages of moderate value without offering exclusive items and compensating contributors with thanks, perhaps a personalized courtesy email and a segment in the forums for their mention.
.
Is there 17k users against cosmetics. Sure, I would prefer that cosmetics were not offered. However, it is available it's not gonna change. I'll just use them. Being against it does does not remove the customer. The clearly overwhelming success of cosmetics across many games indicates that having a cosmetic shop is far more profitable than not.
Your interpretation of using funds would be nice from our point of view but does not seem necessary to run a game and IS will choose what they think is most beneficial.
Under the current model, we do not pay for expansions.
As far as the exclusive items does, this game will be heavily involved in exclusive items that are gone after a time. Both in game and out.
None of this really matters. It is all a matter of preference for billing. Your initial ideas of other payment systems seem interesting; however, in the end IS will probably choose the option that is most likely to provide the highest returns. While Steven wants to make a great game, I am sure that he also wants a good return.
Arguing directly against the cash shop by trying to project it as a low return is unlikely to work. Whenever many companies copy one another, you can be sure that there is a lot of profit involved. That is what has happened with the cosmetic shop.
I understand this but my intention is not to propose the model that generates the most profits but a model that generates profits without abusing a segment of the player base.
Microtransactions and the sale of cosmetics is highly profitable precisely because it seeks to fully exploit a real need, the capacity for visual customization within the game.
That is why it makes me laugh when they say that cosmetics do not matter in the gaming experience and that they are not a way to win, on the contrary it is precisely this that makes it so profitable.
Here’s a question... Hypothetically, let’s say there is a hat that costs $25 in the store. You could get an identical hat in the game through a simple 5 minute quest that involves just running from one place to another, an errand essentially. The only difference is that it’s a different shade of brown, dark beige instead of a chocolate color. Would you consider that P2W?
This isn’t a “gotcha” question or trying to in any way invalidate your opinion. I’m genuinely curious where you draw the line at what you consider P2W.
Me, I think paying for something you can pretty much get for no cost and little effort to be foolishness and/or laziness. Even the completionist who needs to have “everything” is somewhat foolish. But if someone wants to throw away hard cash for nothing, bless them, they’re funding my hobby.
First, it must be taken into account that certain cosmetics are exclusive (kickstarter and store packages) and have a temporal time for sale, then they are no longer available, in these cases I doubt that identical versions or with color variations can be obtained within the game (if I'm wrong you can correct).
Intrepid has made it clear on multiple occasions that color variations will not be uncommon on exclusive items. They’ve already done this actually, when they did the summer crowdfunding after Kickstarter ended they included some recolored versions of cosmetics from KS, and explained that such a thing will happen. My example of “a different shade of brown” was a bit extreme, maybe, but it’s something I’ve seen in other games. For example example I play Secret World Legends and it’s not unusual to have cosmetics for sale that are just a different shade of the same item in the same color as you could earn from achievements in the game.
Regarding variations in colors or small differences due to added effects, the following situation is generated:
- What is the most attractive or convenient version?
There is no correct answer to a subjective question. If one item is black and another is gold, some people will say the black one is cool and the gold is tacky. Others will say the gold one is amazing and the black one is boring. Also, some might say it’s more work to keep an eye on the store to not miss limited exclusive items, others will say it’s more work to earn it in game even if it’s an achievement anyone can do at any time. It might be more convenient for a person with extra cash to just buy it but another person finds it more convenient to work on it in game than save up the real life money to buy it.
- Which one best suits the need to create a certain stereotype (in the character, pet, mount, house, caravan) either for taste, role, etc.
That applies equally to all cosmetics since anyone can be going for any kind of look.
- The simple fact that they differ in certain aspects makes them a different version, something key for collectors.
The answer is that depending on each one, the paid version can be the most attractive and of course, in the case of collectors, reaching all the variants is a goal.
Having these variants behind the need to buy packs (to purchase content and unlock the corresponding Tier for individual future purchases) is a major limitation in the quest to complete the gaming experience and gain the feeling of success.
Finally, clarify that when I mean that all content should be available to everyone without additional payments, I do not mean wanting to have everything but to have the ability to access everything.
The ability to access is the door to achieve what you want through merit, effort and dedication within the game, this does not necessarily mean that everyone can have everything, only those who successfully exceed the objectives set to achieve these contents.
Again, collectors make their own problems. Unless there is some kind of title or achievement promoted within the game for collecting, it’s ridiculous to call that P2W. You can’t make up your own win conditions and then whine about them. It’s meaningless.
MMORPG
Massively
Multiplayer
Online Role
Playing
Game
Cambridge Dictionary, Role: the position or purpose that someone or something has in a situation, organization, society, or relationship.
The purpose of many players is to customize their characters, pets, mounts, houses, caravans, etc.
Gary Gygax, the father of the role:
¨The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience. There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you’re involved in, whether it’s a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things¨.
Representing a specific character in a given environment requires an appropriate setting, a story, a visual aspect and everything that allows the staging to come to life.
The industry no longer remembers the meaning of the role.
The goal of winning, competing, was set and one of the fundamental aspects of the role (the visual aspect, the personalization) was taken to generate money.
In this sad reality and as much as they do not want to recognize, for the lovers of the role their goal within a game, their feeling of success was put behind a wall of money.
Why do you guys keep poking this guy? He is fighting a losing argument.
Humoring mostly.
@Elder Soul is cordial and sometimes cleverly funny. I enjoy this thread even though I pretty much think everything of substance has been said already.
If this was a real life debate we’d be at the stage where we were done with serious business and are now getting drinks together.
Why do you guys keep poking this guy? He is fighting a losing argument.
Humoring mostly.
@Elder Soul is cordial and sometimes cleverly funny. I enjoy this thread even though I pretty much think everything of substance has been said already.
If this was a real life debate we’d be at the stage where we were done with serious business and are now getting drinks together.
I agree. Just because I 100% disagree with him on this issue, doesn't mean I have to dislike someone.
Sadly thats sometimes rare nowadays on the web. Thankfully though these forums have it far more commonly.
Just dont check the dps meter thread lol
Look at it this way, my thread in the forum achieved something rarely seen, that the user community united behind the same objective, to convince me that the sale of cosmetics is not P2W.
I will admit, I only read the first 4 pages of this thread, but please tell me you guys realize OP is trolling.
I dont think he is.
He's put far to much thought and effort into trying to convince people that a cosmetic item to him personally is p2w.
Anyone whos been around long enough knows thats not even remotely what p2w is. But in these days people have been trying to fabricate new meanings for concrete meanings and definitions in many ways.
Its become a bit of joke to look at society and see how fast we've devolved rather than progressed. Its kind of vexing since we're technologically more advanced than ever but have regressed socially and intellectually as a collective.
I will admit, I only read the first 4 pages of this thread, but please tell me you guys realize OP is trolling.
I dont think he is.
He's put far to much thought and effort into trying to convince people that a cosmetic item to him personally is p2w.
Anyone whos been around long enough knows thats not even remotely what p2w is. But in these days people have been trying to fabricate new meanings for concrete meanings and definitions in many ways.
Its become a bit of joke to look at society and see how fast we've devolved rather than progressed. Its kind of vexing since we're technologically more advanced than ever but have regressed socially and intellectually as a collective.
Sometimes when you take a wrong path there is nothing wrong with going backwards and with a new perspective keep moving in the right direction.
The only type of pay to win cosmetic that I've encountered so far are a few League of Legends skins. Not to fuel his argument but the iBlitzcrank skin and I believe the Elementalist Lux are pretty P2W.
If you want a perfect example of how a company handles it's in-game cash shop look no further than Grinding Gear Games. Path of Exile is highly respected by its player base. It's got loot boxes sure, but those are for the whales that can't wait for the next league's content. All items that are in loot boxes become available for purchase in the normal cash shop after the league. Even so, none of the community gives them grief for it since -nothing- gives you an advantage in the game. POE might've not been the best example as there's a very small PvP community but the idea remains the same.
The only type of pay to win cosmetic that I've encountered so far are a few League of Legends skins. Not to fuel his argument but the iBlitzcrank skin and I believe the Elementalist Lux are pretty P2W.
If you want a perfect example of how a company handles it's in-game cash shop look no further than Grinding Gear Games. Path of Exile is highly respected by its player base. It's got loot boxes sure, but those are for the whales that can't wait for the next league's content. All items that are in loot boxes become available for purchase in the normal cash shop after the league. Even so, none of the community gives them grief for it since -nothing- gives you an advantage in the game. POE might've not been the best example as there's a very small PvP community but the idea remains the same.
The problem with POE is that everything aesthetically attractive is exclusive to the payment store. The objects in the game lack appeal in general.
On the other hand, the sale of stash tabs in the long run ends up being key to achieving efficient performance in the game.
Customizable tabs (premium), tabs to accumulate fragments, currency, maps, divination cards, uniques, orbs, etc.
Being able to accumulate the loot and distribute it in a categorized way is key to efficient progress.
Taking into account that these stash tabs are also available during the seasons, this generates a great advantage.
@Nizzikef the stash tabs in PoE absolutely give you a significant advantage compared to people who do not purchase them. The reason myself and other people who play the game a lot don't mind the cash shop in that game is for three reasons. 1: nothing provides actual character stats that makes clearing content easier. 2: If you buy the stash tabs during one of their frequent sales you can get all of them for significantly cheaper than what a full-priced game would cost. 3: The game is 100% free with no subscription cost otherwise. I think a lot of people, myself included, view buying the stash tabs as the cost of purchasing the game and tolerate the cosmetic items since GGG churns out massive updates every three months despite having no subscription fee. I would certainly not be happy with GGG's monetization if I was paying a subscription fee to play the game.
1
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I dropped cash on POE. Got some cool skins for my mage. I figured it was worth it to fund the game. I haven’t played in a while but I really like it.
Microtransactions and the sale of cosmetics is highly profitable precisely because it seeks to fully exploit a real need, the capacity for visual customization within the game.
This is completely incorrect.
Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.
First, it must be taken into account that certain cosmetics are exclusive (kickstarter and store packages) and have a temporal time for sale, then they are no longer available, in these cases I doubt that identical versions or with color variations can be obtained within the game (if I'm wrong you can correct).
You are wrong.
P2R = P2W.
Your argument completely hinges on color. Nothing more.
You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color. Not an obnoxious or obtuse color, just a different color to the otherwise identicle item that is in the shop.
Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.
0
TimeraiderMember, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As a PvP-player, there sadly is no way you can convince me that cosmetics will every be P2W.
Cosmetics being P2W is subjective as it depends on the value someone puts on having (subjectively) cooler-looking clothes compared to someone else.
Which for me means 0.000000.
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
Why would anyone even make such a thread when it has already been confirmed this will not be in any form P2W. I feel like you're trying to find a sollution for something that isn't there.
I don't know why the OP started with the pay to win topic, but most of the OP was about changing the combination of subscription fee and paying cosmetic prices to another system that some people may find better.
Contrary to what many tend to say, there is no single definition of what this means.
Fortunately, Steven has identified what he means when he says that Ashes will not be P2W.
My definition of pay-to-win is really anything that affects the in-game economy, the in-game action pool, your abilities and/or skills... In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay-to-win.[16] – Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Payment_model#Pay_to_win
Additionally, I do remember Steven stating in multiple videos that pay to convenience is included as P2W, although I do not have a link.
If I'd look like a damn beggar without paying money for cash shop cosmetics... I'd still not call it P2W... I'd just call it shit art, - and game design and probably stop playing because how good my character looks IS pretty important to me (glamour is true endgame 😏)
But Steven did make sure to point out that the cosmetics will be ON PAR with the stuff you can get ingame, it will just take a lot of effort.
Now if you're too lazy to put that effort into this then that's your problem.
As a PvP-player, there sadly is no way you can convince me that cosmetics will every be P2W.
Cosmetics being P2W is subjective as it depends on the value someone puts on having (subjectively) cooler-looking clothes compared to someone else.
Which for me means 0.000000.
The typical mistake of believing that why someone raises a different interpretation is because they want to convince others.
It is not my intention to convince anyone.
On the other hand, it is logical that a 100% PvP player does not feel any interest in cosmetic items and their focus is exclusively linked to the performance of their character.
Finally, for these types of players the sale of cosmetics is an excellent system, it does not compromise their objectives in the game and finances the creation of content, which they enjoy without investing extra money.
Microtransactions and the sale of cosmetics is highly profitable precisely because it seeks to fully exploit a real need, the capacity for visual customization within the game.
This is completely incorrect.
Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.
First, it must be taken into account that certain cosmetics are exclusive (kickstarter and store packages) and have a temporal time for sale, then they are no longer available, in these cases I doubt that identical versions or with color variations can be obtained within the game (if I'm wrong you can correct).
You are wrong.
P2R = P2W.
Your argument completely hinges on color. Nothing more.
You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color. Not an obnoxious or obtuse color, just a different color to the otherwise identicle item that is in the shop.
Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.
¨Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.¨
MMORPG
R = Role
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
¨You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color¨
So when someone buys clothes, furniture, a car, paints a house, chooses the colors of preference because ...
Nothing?
Ops! Of course, because colors matter, they match your personality and your desire to create an environment to your liking.
¨Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.¨
If the role to be played requires a color that is behind a wall of money, then this role cannot be played without paying.
Limiting the colors limits the possibilities of RPG
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You realize that you literally just said that environment, history, music, interpretation, objectives and participation mean nothing in regards to a role, and all that matters is the appearance.
I am going to assume you want to take that back.
Also, I am not sure what a Massively Multiplayer Online Playing Games is. You should be taking the "P" in MMORPG with you, not just the "R".
---
Since your entire argument comes down to nothing but color, this is the only part of your argument at all that carries any semblence of weight.
That doesn't mean this is a valid argument, it means everything else is a pointless ramble of nothingness.
Limiting the colors limits the possibilities of RPG
The issue with this statement in terms of the cosmetic only cash shop beign pay to win - other than the complete lunacy of it - is that it isn't factoring in the notion that you are not supposed to be able to play any role you want.
You can't roleplay a police officer wearing a police hat in Ashes.
You can't roleplay a Jedi in Ashes, complete with lightsabre.
You can't roleplay Xena the Warrior Princess either.
You can only roleplay the things that the game allows you to roleplay.
Further, I can't think of any role in any situation where a slight change in color would matter. I'd really like to hear what kind of role it is you think would rely that much on color.
Lastly, since you are complaining about color and literally nothing else, would you please be able to fill me in on how the game is going to handle player dye?
I mean, since color is literally the only argument you have, surely you've looked in to this already, right?
2
FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The typical mistake of believing that why someone raises a different interpretation is because they want to convince others.
It is not my intention to convince anyone.
The purpose of this post is clearly to get a group of people to support your desire for a change to the payment system. Its also clear from this thread that there is not a large following for people believing that cosmetics are P2W.
¨Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.¨
MMORPG
R = Role
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role. You don't have to have cosmetics. They offer zero in game advantage. They take up time, effort, and resources but the only benefits are psychological and social. Those are not in game benefits. Your trying to win outside of the parameters of the game and calling it winning in the game and using that as the basis of your argument that paying cash for cosmetics is P2W.
Your OP argument doesn't even make sense either. You start with naming cosmetics P2W in an apparent attempt to discredit the current payment system. You then propose to solve this by setting up a payment system that is cheaper. However, if buying cosmetics is P2W, then paying less for cosmetics is paying less to win.
Naturally, if cosmetics being P2W was a problem, you would have proposed the only solution: don't sell cosmetics. You either don't have a problem with P2W; or, you don't really believe that cosmetics are P2W.
You could have argued that the entire game is filled with cosmetics, including cosmetics that are simply recolors of the cosmetics offered in the shop. However, in many cases buying one cosmetic in the shop is half the price of a full game at $60 / box or twice the cost of a monthly sub. These prices are clearly far higher than anything that could be justified for the cost of one skin. Then you could have proposed a more reasonable pricing system such as the one that you gave. Instead of having everyone try to explain why cosmetics are not pay to win, you could have had people talking about whether the current pricing system is fair.
Something you should know:
We offer cosmetics for players who wish to support the project early. The exclusive nature of the limited availability is something I think collectors value. If you buy cosmetics as an MMO player, I know I enjoyed if the cosmetic is rare and not every girl at the party is wearing the same dress...Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pre-order_packs
Cosmetics are intended to be exclusive and limited. Cost is exclusive, even though the average person can afford to buy any of the available cosmetics. The cost of buying all will drive many away even if they can afford it. The result is few people having any given cosmetic. It is the exact opposite of your proposed solution that involves full access to cosmetics at a low price. Your solution to deal with ridiculous prices of cosmetics demonstrates that the goal of exclusion is occurring.
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You realize that you literally just said that environment, history, music, interpretation, objectives and participation mean nothing in regards to a role, and all that matters is the appearance.
I am going to assume you want to take that back.
Also, I am not sure what a Massively Multiplayer Online Playing Games is. You should be taking the "P" in MMORPG with you, not just the "R".
---
Since your entire argument comes down to nothing but color, this is the only part of your argument at all that carries any semblence of weight.
That doesn't mean this is a valid argument, it means everything else is a pointless ramble of nothingness.
Limiting the colors limits the possibilities of RPG
The issue with this statement in terms of the cosmetic only cash shop beign pay to win - other than the complete lunacy of it - is that it isn't factoring in the notion that you are not supposed to be able to play any role you want.
You can't roleplay a police officer wearing a police hat in Ashes.
You can't roleplay a Jedi in Ashes, complete with lightsabre.
You can't roleplay Xena the Warrior Princess either.
You can only roleplay the things that the game allows you to roleplay.
Further, I can't think of any role in any situation where a slight change in color would matter. I'd really like to hear what kind of role it is you think would rely that much on color.
Lastly, since you are complaining about color and literally nothing else, would you please be able to fill me in on how the game is going to handle player dye?
I mean, since color is literally the only argument you have, surely you've looked in to this already, right?
¨You realize that you literally just said that environment, history, music, interpretation, objectives and participation mean nothing in regards to a role, and all that matters is the appearance.¨
You realize that ¨Limitation¨ as I say is not the same that ¨nothing¨ as you say?
The typical mistake of believing that why someone raises a different interpretation is because they want to convince others.
It is not my intention to convince anyone.
The purpose of this post is clearly to get a group of people to support your desire for a change to the payment system. Its also clear from this thread that there is not a large following for people believing that cosmetics are P2W.
¨Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.¨
MMORPG
R = Role
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role. You don't have to have cosmetics. They offer zero in game advantage. They take up time, effort, and resources but the only benefits are psychological and social. Those are not in game benefits. Your trying to win outside of the parameters of the game and calling it winning in the game and using that as the basis of your argument that paying cash for cosmetics is P2W.
Your OP argument doesn't even make sense either. You start with naming cosmetics P2W in an apparent attempt to discredit the current payment system. You then propose to solve this by setting up a payment system that is cheaper. However, if buying cosmetics is P2W, then paying less for cosmetics is paying less to win.
Naturally, if cosmetics being P2W was a problem, you would have proposed the only solution: don't sell cosmetics. You either don't have a problem with P2W; or, you don't really believe that cosmetics are P2W.
You could have argued that the entire game is filled with cosmetics, including cosmetics that are simply recolors of the cosmetics offered in the shop. However, in many cases buying one cosmetic in the shop is half the price of a full game at $60 / box or twice the cost of a monthly sub. These prices are clearly far higher than anything that could be justified for the cost of one skin. Then you could have proposed a more reasonable pricing system such as the one that you gave. Instead of having everyone try to explain why cosmetics are not pay to win, you could have had people talking about whether the current pricing system is fair.
Something you should know:
We offer cosmetics for players who wish to support the project early. The exclusive nature of the limited availability is something I think collectors value. If you buy cosmetics as an MMO player, I know I enjoyed if the cosmetic is rare and not every girl at the party is wearing the same dress...Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pre-order_packs
Cosmetics are intended to be exclusive and limited. Cost is exclusive, even though the average person can afford to buy any of the available cosmetics. The cost of buying all will drive many away even if they can afford it. The result is few people having any given cosmetic. It is the exact opposite of your proposed solution that involves full access to cosmetics at a low price. Your solution to deal with ridiculous prices of cosmetics demonstrates that the goal of exclusion is occurring.
¨You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role¨
¨Limitations¨ as I say is not the same that ¨no role¨ as you say.
Misleading aproach detected.
0
FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
¨You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role¨
¨Limitations¨ as I say is not the same that ¨no role¨ as you say.
Misleading aproach detected.
You say that I am misleading, yet you literally removed the "R" from MMORPG. What am I supposed to think that removing role means other than it is removed? Your point must be that at least in your perception, role has been removed if appearance is not included.
¨You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role¨
¨Limitations¨ as I say is not the same that ¨no role¨ as you say.
Misleading aproach detected.
You say that I am misleading, yet you literally removed the "R" from MMORPG. What am I supposed to think that removing role means other than it is removed? Your point must be that at least in your perception, role has been removed if appearance is not included.
If the theme of the thread revolves around the perspective of players who see the cosmetic aspect as a central part of their gaming experience and a goal of progress and success, it is understood that within the fundamental aspects of the role, the cosmetic is a priority, If there is no freedom of access within the game and a large part of these objects are offered for money, this goal disappears and the concept of role for these players loses sense, there is no R.
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
In other words, you are saying all of these factors are elements of roleplay, but if you remove appearance from the equation, you are placing limitations on that, which equals MMOPG - or an MMORPG without the"role".
I am not misleading anything, I am simply echoing what you just said.
And what you just said is that removing a few appearance options (in this case, a potential limit on color options) is akin to turning the game in to an MMOPG.
Why would you have even said MMOPG in a thread where your only argument is that there may be some restrictions to color choice, if you are not saying that those restrictions to color choice are completely removing the "role" aspect of the MMORPG genre?
Also, where is my information on the dye system?
0
FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
...If there is no freedom of access within the game and a large part of these objects are offered for money, this goal disappears and the concept of role for these players loses sense, there is no R.
So, in the end his elaborate post with an equation and long explanation was just making the point that for him there is no MMORPG without cosmetics. Which is what he has been saying for the whole thread.
So, in the end his elaborate post with an equation and long explanation was just making the point that for him there is no MMORPG without cosmetics. Which is what he has been saying for the whole thread.
The issue there is that
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
would then be the same as
Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
Basically,
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance
is all superfluous.
If these other things play no part at all in a role, there is no point in even bringing them up. So why were they brought up?
Further, someone playing a role using only appearance is doing a shit job of playing that role.
Lastly, suggesting some form of misleading has taken place when all that has been done is echoing a post back to the person that posted it is absolutely not ok.
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
In other words, you are saying all of these factors are elements of roleplay, but if you remove appearance from the equation, you are placing limitations on that, which equals MMOPG - or an MMORPG without the"role".
I am not misleading anything, I am simply echoing what you just said.
And what you just said is that removing a few appearance options (in this case, a potential limit on color options) is akin to turning the game in to an MMOPG.
Why would you have even said MMOPG in a thread where your only argument is that there may be some restrictions to color choice, if you are not saying that those restrictions to color choice are completely removing the "role" aspect of the MMORPG genre?
...If there is no freedom of access within the game and a large part of these objects are offered for money, this goal disappears and the concept of role for these players loses sense, there is no R.
So, in the end his elaborate post with an equation and long explanation was just making the point that for him there is no MMORPG without cosmetics. Which is what he has been saying for the whole thread.
So, in the end his elaborate post with an equation and long explanation was just making the point that for him there is no MMORPG without cosmetics. Which is what he has been saying for the whole thread.
The issue there is that
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
would then be the same as
Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
Basically,
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance
is all superfluous.
If these other things play no part at all in a role, there is no point in even bringing them up. So why were they brought up?
Further, someone playing a role using only appearance is doing a shit job of playing that role.
Lastly, suggesting some form of misleading has taken place when all that has been done is echoing a post back to the person that posted it is absolutely not ok.
Cosmetics are only P2W if this was a Fashion game. You don't get style points or anything so I can't see the problem
If you have:
Environment or History or Music or Appearance or Interpretation or Objectives or Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitation to interpretation = MMOPG
You have a ponit.
But I say:
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You know the meaning of ¨+¨?
About the Dye system:
If this is gonna happen and they put all the color options inside the game is a perfect solution, no more complains.
But if they put the dye system and some colors are ¨store exclusive options¨ we are in the same problem.
About the style point logic:
You have sound points in the game?
No, so they can put exclusive backgraound, boss fight and location music in the strore for money and is ok?
You have animation points in the game?
No, so they can put exclusive combat and social animations in the store for money and is ok?
You have landscape points in the game?
And gender points?
Racial points?
You do not need a point system to understand that some stuff are basic components of a MMORPG.
I will admit, I only read the first 4 pages of this thread, but please tell me you guys realize OP is trolling.
I dont think he is.
He's put far to much thought and effort into trying to convince people that a cosmetic item to him personally is p2w.
Anyone whos been around long enough knows thats not even remotely what p2w is. But in these days people have been trying to fabricate new meanings for concrete meanings and definitions in many ways.
Its become a bit of joke to look at society and see how fast we've devolved rather than progressed. Its kind of vexing since we're technologically more advanced than ever but have regressed socially and intellectually as a collective.
Sometimes when you take a wrong path there is nothing wrong with going backwards and with a new perspective keep moving in the right direction.
Yeah, you ironically took the wrong path on P2W. so you should turn around and go left next time where all the reasonable people are. What I mean is that your premise on pure cosmetics being P2W is faulty. It's quite inferior to the general understanding of P2W, and should not be incorporated.
For someone who wrote "Everything is relative," it sure seems like only your ideas are relative and not others. Clearly you misused the phrase or don't even understand relativism so you recklessly used a self-contradicting statement to sound smart. The contradiction being everything boils down to personal preferences and there's no absoluteness/ objective standards when the statement itself is absolute and a self-imposing objective standard. Maybe, be careful when getting preachy.
We all probably know this: the objective standards generally accepted as P2W ranges from conveniences: EXP boosts, auto-complete raids, character weight, and a combination of other conveniences to hard power like currency, stats, BiS or really good weapons, etc.
Pure cosmetics have not been accepted as P2W by most people, in fact this is the only time I've heard of it out of thousands of people I talked to about it over time and the thousands they did, plus the thousands of their own. It's probably like this with all posters who disagree with your premise.
Your premise is an unreliable minority opinion that needlessly complicates the general understanding of P2W. While I can appreciate some perspectives that are unique, different, insular, and new, this one's not worth having or appreciating.
I will admit, I only read the first 4 pages of this thread, but please tell me you guys realize OP is trolling.
I dont think he is.
He's put far to much thought and effort into trying to convince people that a cosmetic item to him personally is p2w.
Anyone whos been around long enough knows thats not even remotely what p2w is. But in these days people have been trying to fabricate new meanings for concrete meanings and definitions in many ways.
Its become a bit of joke to look at society and see how fast we've devolved rather than progressed. Its kind of vexing since we're technologically more advanced than ever but have regressed socially and intellectually as a collective.
Sometimes when you take a wrong path there is nothing wrong with going backwards and with a new perspective keep moving in the right direction.
Yeah, you ironically took the wrong path on P2W. so you should turn around and go left next time where all the reasonable people are. What I mean is that your premise on pure cosmetics being P2W is faulty. It's quite inferior to the general understanding of P2W, and should not be incorporated.
For someone who wrote "Everything is relative," it sure seems like only your ideas are relative and not others. Clearly you misused the phrase or don't even understand relativism so you recklessly used a self-contradicting statement to sound smart. The contradiction being everything boils down to personal preferences and there's no absoluteness/ objective standards when the statement itself is absolute and a self-imposing objective standard. Maybe, be careful when getting preachy.
We all probably know this: the objective standards generally accepted as P2W ranges from conveniences: EXP boosts, auto-complete raids, character weight, and a combination of other conveniences to hard power like currency, stats, BiS or really good weapons, etc.
Pure cosmetics have not been accepted as P2W by most people, in fact this is the only time I've heard of it out of thousands of people I talked to about it over time and the thousands they did, plus the thousands of their own. It's probably like this with all posters who disagree with your premise.
Your premise is an unreliable minority opinion that needlessly complicates the general understanding of P2W. While I can appreciate some perspectives that are unique, different, insular, and new, this one's not worth having or appreciating.
Perhaps if you read all the contributions and saw the links I provided you would see that in the real world there are many other people who think the same.
As for the reasonable people here, well it is a matter of perspective, I did not count them, but suppose that some 20 or 30 people who agree on something in the forum compared to a total of tens of millions existing represent the absolute and irrefutable logic is a unpretentious.
Following this same logic, of course I do not pretend to represent absolute logic and unquestionable reason, I made it clear in my other contributions, I respect your views and understanding of what P2W is, I simply do not share it.
You have people who think the same, me too.
To think that the tiny proportion represented in this forum is the revelation about the absolute truth is a bit naive.
That is why I repeat again, it is not about convincing anyone, you have your version of what is correct or acceptable, Intrepid has, and I have mine.
Do not be afraid, worried, frustrated or angry that someone will express a different interpretation.
The best thing that can happen to a forum is to have different opinions to feed a debate, thinking of a forum where only users who share the same ideology and way of thinking are accepted moves away from the idea of a forum and begins to look more like a cult.
0
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
Yes. There are a couple of kooks with blogs that share your delusion. You will always be able to find other crazies, heck there is even a Flat Earth Society. It doesn’t make your thread title any less of a lie or your thread premise any less idiotic.
EDIT: On a more careful reading of your links I have to take back what I said. Even the articles you link to don’t call cosmetics “pay to win”. They don’t seem to share your lunacy. The only arguments they are making is that cosmetic micro transactions aren’t meaningless nor harmless, and I don’t see anyone arguing against that. We are just disputing the ignorant claim that cosmetics are P2W, and you haven’t shown in this thread that anyone but you feels that way.
Comments
MMORPG
Massively
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game
Cambridge Dictionary, Role: the position or purpose that someone or something has in a situation, organization, society, or relationship.
The purpose of many players is to customize their characters, pets, mounts, houses, caravans, etc.
Gary Gygax, the father of the role:
¨The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience. There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you’re involved in, whether it’s a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things¨.
Representing a specific character in a given environment requires an appropriate setting, a story, a visual aspect and everything that allows the staging to come to life.
The industry no longer remembers the meaning of the role.
The goal of winning, competing, was set and one of the fundamental aspects of the role (the visual aspect, the personalization) was taken to generate money.
In this sad reality and as much as they do not want to recognize, for the lovers of the role their goal within a game, their feeling of success was put behind a wall of money.
P2R = P2W.
Look at it this way, my thread in the forum achieved something rarely seen, that the user community united behind the same objective, to convince me that the sale of cosmetics is not P2W.
I dont think he is.
He's put far to much thought and effort into trying to convince people that a cosmetic item to him personally is p2w.
Anyone whos been around long enough knows thats not even remotely what p2w is. But in these days people have been trying to fabricate new meanings for concrete meanings and definitions in many ways.
Its become a bit of joke to look at society and see how fast we've devolved rather than progressed. Its kind of vexing since we're technologically more advanced than ever but have regressed socially and intellectually as a collective.
No trolling.
Just sharing a different view on a common topic.
Sometimes when you take a wrong path there is nothing wrong with going backwards and with a new perspective keep moving in the right direction.
If you want a perfect example of how a company handles it's in-game cash shop look no further than Grinding Gear Games. Path of Exile is highly respected by its player base. It's got loot boxes sure, but those are for the whales that can't wait for the next league's content. All items that are in loot boxes become available for purchase in the normal cash shop after the league. Even so, none of the community gives them grief for it since -nothing- gives you an advantage in the game. POE might've not been the best example as there's a very small PvP community but the idea remains the same.
The problem with POE is that everything aesthetically attractive is exclusive to the payment store. The objects in the game lack appeal in general.
On the other hand, the sale of stash tabs in the long run ends up being key to achieving efficient performance in the game.
Customizable tabs (premium), tabs to accumulate fragments, currency, maps, divination cards, uniques, orbs, etc.
Being able to accumulate the loot and distribute it in a categorized way is key to efficient progress.
Taking into account that these stash tabs are also available during the seasons, this generates a great advantage.
Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need. You are wrong. Your argument completely hinges on color. Nothing more.
You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color. Not an obnoxious or obtuse color, just a different color to the otherwise identicle item that is in the shop.
Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.
Cosmetics being P2W is subjective as it depends on the value someone puts on having (subjectively) cooler-looking clothes compared to someone else.
Which for me means 0.000000.
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
He said on the AMA also:
But Steven did make sure to point out that the cosmetics will be ON PAR with the stuff you can get ingame, it will just take a lot of effort.
Now if you're too lazy to put that effort into this then that's your problem.
The typical mistake of believing that why someone raises a different interpretation is because they want to convince others.
It is not my intention to convince anyone.
On the other hand, it is logical that a 100% PvP player does not feel any interest in cosmetic items and their focus is exclusively linked to the performance of their character.
Finally, for these types of players the sale of cosmetics is an excellent system, it does not compromise their objectives in the game and finances the creation of content, which they enjoy without investing extra money.
¨Visual customization within a game is a desire, not a need.¨
MMORPG
R = Role
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
¨You can get anything at all in game, it just may be a different color¨
So when someone buys clothes, furniture, a car, paints a house, chooses the colors of preference because ...
Nothing?
Ops! Of course, because colors matter, they match your personality and your desire to create an environment to your liking.
¨Having a hat that is mauve taupe rather than old mauve shouldn't have any impact at all on your ability to play the role.¨
If the role to be played requires a color that is behind a wall of money, then this role cannot be played without paying.
Limiting the colors limits the possibilities of RPG
I am going to assume you want to take that back.
Also, I am not sure what a Massively Multiplayer Online Playing Games is. You should be taking the "P" in MMORPG with you, not just the "R".
---
Since your entire argument comes down to nothing but color, this is the only part of your argument at all that carries any semblence of weight.
That doesn't mean this is a valid argument, it means everything else is a pointless ramble of nothingness.
The issue with this statement in terms of the cosmetic only cash shop beign pay to win - other than the complete lunacy of it - is that it isn't factoring in the notion that you are not supposed to be able to play any role you want.
You can't roleplay a police officer wearing a police hat in Ashes.
You can't roleplay a Jedi in Ashes, complete with lightsabre.
You can't roleplay Xena the Warrior Princess either.
You can only roleplay the things that the game allows you to roleplay.
Further, I can't think of any role in any situation where a slight change in color would matter. I'd really like to hear what kind of role it is you think would rely that much on color.
Lastly, since you are complaining about color and literally nothing else, would you please be able to fill me in on how the game is going to handle player dye?
I mean, since color is literally the only argument you have, surely you've looked in to this already, right?
You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role. You don't have to have cosmetics. They offer zero in game advantage. They take up time, effort, and resources but the only benefits are psychological and social. Those are not in game benefits. Your trying to win outside of the parameters of the game and calling it winning in the game and using that as the basis of your argument that paying cash for cosmetics is P2W.
Your OP argument doesn't even make sense either. You start with naming cosmetics P2W in an apparent attempt to discredit the current payment system. You then propose to solve this by setting up a payment system that is cheaper. However, if buying cosmetics is P2W, then paying less for cosmetics is paying less to win.
Naturally, if cosmetics being P2W was a problem, you would have proposed the only solution: don't sell cosmetics. You either don't have a problem with P2W; or, you don't really believe that cosmetics are P2W.
You could have argued that the entire game is filled with cosmetics, including cosmetics that are simply recolors of the cosmetics offered in the shop. However, in many cases buying one cosmetic in the shop is half the price of a full game at $60 / box or twice the cost of a monthly sub. These prices are clearly far higher than anything that could be justified for the cost of one skin. Then you could have proposed a more reasonable pricing system such as the one that you gave. Instead of having everyone try to explain why cosmetics are not pay to win, you could have had people talking about whether the current pricing system is fair.
Something you should know:
We offer cosmetics for players who wish to support the project early. The exclusive nature of the limited availability is something I think collectors value. If you buy cosmetics as an MMO player, I know I enjoyed if the cosmetic is rare and not every girl at the party is wearing the same dress...Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pre-order_packs
Cosmetics are intended to be exclusive and limited. Cost is exclusive, even though the average person can afford to buy any of the available cosmetics. The cost of buying all will drive many away even if they can afford it. The result is few people having any given cosmetic. It is the exact opposite of your proposed solution that involves full access to cosmetics at a low price. Your solution to deal with ridiculous prices of cosmetics demonstrates that the goal of exclusion is occurring.
¨You realize that you literally just said that environment, history, music, interpretation, objectives and participation mean nothing in regards to a role, and all that matters is the appearance.¨
You realize that ¨Limitation¨ as I say is not the same that ¨nothing¨ as you say?
Misleading aproach detected.
¨You have essentially said that without appearance, you have no role in MMORPG even though you list 6 other elements of role¨
¨Limitations¨ as I say is not the same that ¨no role¨ as you say.
Misleading aproach detected.
You say that I am misleading, yet you literally removed the "R" from MMORPG. What am I supposed to think that removing role means other than it is removed? Your point must be that at least in your perception, role has been removed if appearance is not included.
If the theme of the thread revolves around the perspective of players who see the cosmetic aspect as a central part of their gaming experience and a goal of progress and success, it is understood that within the fundamental aspects of the role, the cosmetic is a priority, If there is no freedom of access within the game and a large part of these objects are offered for money, this goal disappears and the concept of role for these players loses sense, there is no R.
I am not misleading anything, I am simply echoing what you just said.
And what you just said is that removing a few appearance options (in this case, a potential limit on color options) is akin to turning the game in to an MMOPG.
Why would you have even said MMOPG in a thread where your only argument is that there may be some restrictions to color choice, if you are not saying that those restrictions to color choice are completely removing the "role" aspect of the MMORPG genre?
Also, where is my information on the dye system?
He agreed. His point is that there is no Role if cosmetics are unobtainable. He simply explained his reasoning as well.
So, in the end his elaborate post with an equation and long explanation was just making the point that for him there is no MMORPG without cosmetics. Which is what he has been saying for the whole thread.
If these other things play no part at all in a role, there is no point in even bringing them up. So why were they brought up?
Further, someone playing a role using only appearance is doing a shit job of playing that role.
Lastly, suggesting some form of misleading has taken place when all that has been done is echoing a post back to the person that posted it is absolutely not ok.
If you have:
Environment or History or Music or Appearance or Interpretation or Objectives or Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitation to interpretation = MMOPG
You have a ponit.
But I say:
Environment + History + Music + Appearance + Interpretation + Objectives + Participation = Role Elements - Appearance = Limitations to interpretation = MMOPG
You know the meaning of ¨+¨?
About the Dye system:
If this is gonna happen and they put all the color options inside the game is a perfect solution, no more complains.
But if they put the dye system and some colors are ¨store exclusive options¨ we are in the same problem.
About the style point logic:
You have sound points in the game?
No, so they can put exclusive backgraound, boss fight and location music in the strore for money and is ok?
You have animation points in the game?
No, so they can put exclusive combat and social animations in the store for money and is ok?
You have landscape points in the game?
And gender points?
Racial points?
You do not need a point system to understand that some stuff are basic components of a MMORPG.
Yeah, you ironically took the wrong path on P2W. so you should turn around and go left next time where all the reasonable people are. What I mean is that your premise on pure cosmetics being P2W is faulty. It's quite inferior to the general understanding of P2W, and should not be incorporated.
For someone who wrote "Everything is relative," it sure seems like only your ideas are relative and not others. Clearly you misused the phrase or don't even understand relativism so you recklessly used a self-contradicting statement to sound smart. The contradiction being everything boils down to personal preferences and there's no absoluteness/ objective standards when the statement itself is absolute and a self-imposing objective standard. Maybe, be careful when getting preachy.
We all probably know this: the objective standards generally accepted as P2W ranges from conveniences: EXP boosts, auto-complete raids, character weight, and a combination of other conveniences to hard power like currency, stats, BiS or really good weapons, etc.
Pure cosmetics have not been accepted as P2W by most people, in fact this is the only time I've heard of it out of thousands of people I talked to about it over time and the thousands they did, plus the thousands of their own. It's probably like this with all posters who disagree with your premise.
Your premise is an unreliable minority opinion that needlessly complicates the general understanding of P2W. While I can appreciate some perspectives that are unique, different, insular, and new, this one's not worth having or appreciating.
Perhaps if you read all the contributions and saw the links I provided you would see that in the real world there are many other people who think the same.
As for the reasonable people here, well it is a matter of perspective, I did not count them, but suppose that some 20 or 30 people who agree on something in the forum compared to a total of tens of millions existing represent the absolute and irrefutable logic is a unpretentious.
Following this same logic, of course I do not pretend to represent absolute logic and unquestionable reason, I made it clear in my other contributions, I respect your views and understanding of what P2W is, I simply do not share it.
You have people who think the same, me too.
To think that the tiny proportion represented in this forum is the revelation about the absolute truth is a bit naive.
That is why I repeat again, it is not about convincing anyone, you have your version of what is correct or acceptable, Intrepid has, and I have mine.
Do not be afraid, worried, frustrated or angry that someone will express a different interpretation.
The best thing that can happen to a forum is to have different opinions to feed a debate, thinking of a forum where only users who share the same ideology and way of thinking are accepted moves away from the idea of a forum and begins to look more like a cult.
EDIT: On a more careful reading of your links I have to take back what I said. Even the articles you link to don’t call cosmetics “pay to win”. They don’t seem to share your lunacy. The only arguments they are making is that cosmetic micro transactions aren’t meaningless nor harmless, and I don’t see anyone arguing against that. We are just disputing the ignorant claim that cosmetics are P2W, and you haven’t shown in this thread that anyone but you feels that way.
Good grief you look foolish.