Dealing with random player killing in an open-world PvP MMO.

For such an ambitious player-driven MMO as Ashes, the presence of random player killing (RPK) poses a challenge.
How do you allow for player agency while protecting new / weak players?

On one hand, giving players the agency to dish out justice in blood makes the world much more interactive and unpredictable, as your reputation and behavior may have dire consequences.

However, the challenge is that this level of PvP-interactivity, typically also gives rise to RPKs. Some of which intentionally grief, and others who just PvP indiscriminately.

The corruption system is already a great safety mechanism against this. However, with player-interaction at the heart of Ashes it would be great to see additional counter-RPK mechanisms that are driven by the players themselves.
Bounty hunters as planned, are a great first step.

However, bounty hunting only taps into monetary motivation. It'd be great to provide tools by which guilds and players may establish a reputation of benevolence and fairness. If Newbie Joe can report a RPK or griefer to the local guild, then it puts justice back into the hands of players. If the game tracks and incentivizes such player-driven justice, then guilds may want their territory to garner a reputation as a safe haven with just proceedings.

If Anti-PKing or peacekeeping is made worthwhile in this sense, we'll be encouraging the community to respond to griefing or bad behavior organically.

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Comments

CaptnChuck

@Warth

Offended by an online argument? Don't lump me in with you guys.

Players have gotten way better at circumventing in game systems over the years. If you think that an old system like L2's karma system, that was already not adequate enough for its time, is going to work in today's time, then you must be dreaming.

My base argument still stands. The corruption system needs more polish.

Also, its just amusing to see people use the term "carebear" so frequently. In my experience, its precisely these kinds of people that end up crying in the end. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

QueenofPixels

[/quote]

Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.[/quote]

In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity

mcstackerson

QueenofPixels wrote: »

In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity

Because it was the pvp system that caused those games to have those small player bases.... ok

I also don't see how it's a pity if a game has a smaller player base. Does every game have to be mainstream? is that good for the genre?

Mojottv

mcstackerson wrote: »

QueenofPixels wrote: »

Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.

In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity [/quote]

Because it was the pvp system that caused those games to have those small player bases.... ok

I also don't see how it's a pity if a game has a smaller player base. Does every game have to be mainstream? is that good for the genre?[/quote]

The guy has money, and looks like he's doing this because he wants a good mmorpg, not because of making quick buck. Wow is really popular and considered mainstream, but its catered for people who like safe environment. Aoc is more hardcore game, so it will cater to people who dont play mmos like wow

Dolyem

Mojottv wrote: »

Kneczhevo wrote: »

I foresee Intrepid having a "Corruption" kill counter. So, if you attack a player, and they die to a mob (say 30 min later), you get flagged with Corruption (eg. like tagging a mob and later someone kills it, you get reward. Suprise!). Further punishing reds. Reason I never chimed in, on this, it's default in my brain, for some stupid reason. Just makes sense to me. Perhaps that's a discussion.

Wow, very bad idea...getting pk for flagging on someone? and even after 30 minutes? Sorry dude, but thats worst idea I have ever heard in this thread. Imagine someone flags on you, you call ur buddies, the go killyourself with a mob, so he gets pk, your buddies kill him, take his shit... very bad idea. You all should stop worrying, the corruption system as it was explained will work very well in preventing constant low lvl griefing, while not restricting players actions.

definitely a bad idea for 30 minutes. But like I was saying previously, it should basically be within seconds not minutes. For example if you're attacked by someone but not killed by them, maybe if you die to a mob within 15 seconds of being attacked by another player, that player is marked with the proper corruption if you didn't attack them. Just keeps the corruption system viable in regards to the issue of people griefing by keeping a player at low health without killing them so they can't do content.

Kneczhevo

I'm a Carebear. And you don't see me crying. 😈

CaptnChuck

@mcstackerson
@Bricktop
@Mojottv

If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.

Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.

Dolyem

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@mcstackerson
@Bricktop
@Mojottv

If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.

Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.

To be honest I would credit most of WoWs success to being innovative in the beginning and causing everyone to invest so much time within their game that even after their golden years with TBC and WotLK people keep playing just because if they stop then all of their time from previous expansions was for nothing. Not to say everything they did since then was wrong, but most of the content they pumped out since Wrath has been garbage painted pretty. Only exception I would say would be Legion but Ironically that was supposed to be the end of WoW right after WotLK and then they were going to move on to TITAN. But instead they used a bunch of filler crap for their storyline to make more money after scrapping TITAN. Game is nothing but a time-sink and a carrot on a stick convincing you its worth sticking around for that new mount or achievment locked behind days of in game time.

Mojottv

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@mcstackerson
@Bricktop
@Mojottv

If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.

Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.

Hence why those players should stick to WOW and FF14. and why competing with the by introducing same formula is very hard.

I don't know how this game will turn out to be, but from what i know about it now, its not about PVP or PVE, so its on equal terms of if you dont like PVP, dont play this game, if you dont like PVE dont play this game.

They are not trying to make the best MMO ever made. They are trying to make a good mmo, with solid old school mechanics, sutch as risk vs revard, player interaction, not restricting player actions, etc. Not some bull shit modern mmo. Jeez in BDO you didnt even have player to player trade available... how fucked up is that in an MMORPG game?

Mojottv

Dolyem wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@mcstackerson
@Bricktop
@Mojottv

If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.

Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.

To be honest I would credit most of WoWs success to being innovative in the beginning and causing everyone to invest so much time within their game that even after their golden years with TBC and WotLK people keep playing just because if they stop then all of their time from previous expansions was for nothing. Not to say everything they did since then was wrong, but most of the content they pumped out since Wrath has been garbage painted pretty. Only exception I would say would be Legion but Ironically that was supposed to be the end of WoW right after WotLK and then they were going to move on to TITAN. But instead they used a bunch of filler crap for their storyline to make more money after scrapping TITAN. Game is nothing but a time-sink and a carrot on a stick convincing you its worth sticking around for that new mount or achievment locked behind days of in game time.

Not really sure where was the innovation though. Their biggest inovation was removing any penalties that players might suffer, making easy accessible content for everyone, hence everyone having a fun time at all times. With good marketing campain and popular background story coming from strategy games it became mainstream. And yes i agree it is a carrot on a stick type of thing, its kind of like a episodic coop game, you play through an expansion with your buddies, then wait for next one, then next one, etc...

CaptnChuck

@Mojottv

Bro, you are even more stupider that I thought. Please don't type. The only thing you're good at, is misunderstanding others when their opinion differs from yours. I don't see a point in having a civil discussion with you, as you're not worth the time.

Mojottv

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@Mojottv

Bro, you are even more stupider that I thought. Please don't type. The only thing you're good at, is misunderstanding others when their opinion differs from yours. I don't see a point in having a civil discussion with you, as you're not worth the time.

Yes, true, hard to have a discussion with people who resort to name calling. Gj just showed ur maturity level.

Selo

Im quite worried about the game beeing so based on all the hard content in open dungeons beeing PvP centric.
Only having acces to certain areas if your a part of a zerg guild is not really that great mechanics.
It forces you to be part of that guild or be locked out.

Mojottv

Selo wrote: »

Im quite worried about the game beeing so based on all the hard content in open dungeons beeing PvP centric.
Only having acces to certain areas if your a part of a zerg guild is not really that great mechanics.
It forces you to be part of that guild or be locked out.

well its an mmo, means other people are playing too, and teamwork will always have advantage over solo guy. Also cuz ita mmo, content is designed for groups of people, or either join a guild or find few friends, cuz playing with not interacting with people will be impossible

vsD

QueenofPixels wrote: »

Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.[/quote]

In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity [/quote]

L2 was one of the most played mmorpgs in Korea and Japan for a very long time and L1, which has the same pvp system, is still one of the top played mmorpgs in korea.
The NA and EU official servers had a big amount of players too and even now the private community is big.

Tyrantor

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@mcstackerson
@Bricktop
@Mojottv

If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.

Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.

This guy is an expert on MMO design, I'm not sure why he doesn't go create his own since he knows all the "best" secrets to building them... hint: they all revolve around PVE guys really hard super challenging PvE that no one can stop you from doing and your character gets really shiny cool looking amazing named items.

mcstackerson

CaptnChuck wrote: »

If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.

Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.

When did Steven say he wanted to make the best MMO?

From what I know, that isn't the goal here. I've heard him in person tell someone the goal is not to be a wow killer. Yes, I'm sure he wants his game to become popular but it's no longer really his game if he changes to whatever you perceive will be popular.

Mojottv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlNgUFYJfO4

To all Wow fanboys... PVE killers

Warth

Not sure who thinks that L2 had a "niche" player base, but it kinda shows how little they know/knew about the game.

It had between 1 and up to 2.5 Million active monthly subs during its peak times.

Dygz

The only "justice" I care about is players having enough good sportsmanship to not grief other players with non-consensual PvP.
Other players cannot perform "justice" against assholes who lack good sportsmanship.

We will have to see whether the Corruption system provides enough "justice" that it's a sufficient deterrent for non-consensual PvP.

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