DPS Meter Megathread

@QueenofPixels

QueenofPixels wrote: »

Hate dPS meters. They are always used to exclude

I completely and totally disagree with this point.

Combat trackers are only ever used to exclude if the game that is being played makes it easy to exclude others.

First of all, combat trackers only work in situations where you are already running content with others - so the excluding that comes from combat trackers can literally only be in relation to people being kicked out of groups mid way through a content piece. While there is an argument to be made that people may be excluded due to class or build, this will happen regardless as people will exclude builds based on the games meta - which will exist regardless of combat trackers.

So, any excluding that can be attributed to combat trackers has to happen mid content.

If you are playing a game that allows you to kick a player from your group, and you are able to replace that player with someone from any server - and that player is able to be teleported directly to your content piece, then it is in many players best interest to exclude some players from their groups.

This is not the fault of combat trackers, this is the fault of the game in question being designed in a way where both the game and the people playing the game need maintain no respect for others at all.

Now, you take those same players and put them in a game where there is no autoamted group system, you can't form groups with players from other servers, and players will not be automatically teleported to your content, and all of a sudden it is in the best interest of all players to make the most of the players that are present

Suddenly, it is no longer an option to kick people out of the group mid way through a content piece, and so people do not do this.

All of this is not simply a theory, this is how things actually happen in games that treat players with respect. In games where you can't treat players as disposable, it should come as no surprise that people don't treat players as disposable.

Based on all of this, the single biggest "feature" Ashes may end up having that will contribute to players being excluded is not a combat tracker (which the game will have), but rather, will be the family summons.

The family summons will allow groups to summon replacement players directly to the content they are running - indeed this is what it is designed to do. This absolutely will see players in groups mid content deciding that a specific player is not up to their standard (which will happen with or without combat trackers), and knowing that they can summon in a family member of any player in the group, they may well decide to exclude that player they feel is underperforming.

It is also worth pointing out that the very existence of the family summons will see people forming groups knowing full well that a friend is going to log on in an hour or so, and building the group with the idea in mind that when their friend logs in, they will simply boot a player from the group and summon their friend in.

I mean, I agree with you that excluding players is bad - even more so if it happens mid way through content. Where I disagree with you - based on actual experience - is in what causes people to exclude others.

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

How about doing it old fashioned way? Changing skills and trying them out on the mob or on other people?

I'm not sure what you think a combat tracker does, but even with one, you will still need to change skills and try them out.

Literally all a combat tracker will do for you is give you an easier to understand (and thus faster to understand) readout of what those skills that you are trying out actually do.

You are advocating that people should go out and try new things - and I totally agree.

The thing is, you are arguing that people should go out and try new things and the game should attempt to obfuscate the information that people are trying to get hold of, while I (and others) are saying the game should make it easier for people to get that information when they go out and actively try to get it.

Well skills should have clear description of what they do and what stats scale them. And thats more than enough information. With addition to combat log you have all the tools to make and try new builds

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

How about doing it old fashioned way? Changing skills and trying them out on the mob or on other people?

I'm not sure what you think a combat tracker does, but even with one, you will still need to change skills and try them out.

Literally all a combat tracker will do for you is give you an easier to understand (and thus faster to understand) readout of what those skills that you are trying out actually do.

You are advocating that people should go out and try new things - and I totally agree.

The thing is, you are arguing that people should go out and try new things and the game should attempt to obfuscate the information that people are trying to get hold of, while I (and others) are saying the game should make it easier for people to get that information when they go out and actively try to get it.

Well skills should have clear description of what they do and what stats scale them. And thats more than enough information. With addition to combat log you have all the tools to make and try new builds

Cool, you use the tooltip information.

Meanwhile, I'll use a combat tracker to ensure - both for myself and for you - that the information on those tool tips is accurate.

You will be surprised how often it is not.

Sound like a deal?

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

How about doing it old fashioned way? Changing skills and trying them out on the mob or on other people?

I'm not sure what you think a combat tracker does, but even with one, you will still need to change skills and try them out.

Literally all a combat tracker will do for you is give you an easier to understand (and thus faster to understand) readout of what those skills that you are trying out actually do.

You are advocating that people should go out and try new things - and I totally agree.

The thing is, you are arguing that people should go out and try new things and the game should attempt to obfuscate the information that people are trying to get hold of, while I (and others) are saying the game should make it easier for people to get that information when they go out and actively try to get it.

Well skills should have clear description of what they do and what stats scale them. And thats more than enough information. With addition to combat log you have all the tools to make and try new builds

Cool, you use the tooltip information.

Meanwhile, I'll use a combat tracker to ensure - both for myself and for you - that the information on those tool tips is accurate.

You will be surprised how often it is not.

Sound like a deal?

Not really, someone else has access to more indepth information, everyone has to use trackers to stay relevant.

@Mojottv
The way that some skills/abilities/talents work may have unforeseen consequences on what they actually do. For example a talent may have description: It takes 30% longer for your rage to decay while outside of combat.

However the implementation was that your rage was increased by 1 every 3 seconds until it dropped to 0. Which means in combat you gained 20 extra rage per minute.

Or another example, talent gives a bleed on your enemy for 30% of your weapon damage if you critical strike him. However it was a bleed that ticked every 3seconds for 12seconds total. So when you crit second time inside the next 12seconds the old unfinished bleed was rewritten with the new one and thus you lost the damage from it. Not only that, if you got enough crit or got lucky enough to crit at least once inside 3 seconds then this talent never did any damage, because it was constantly rewriting itself.

Every game has these things and you cannot catch all unintentional interactions in beta. I believe that Intrepid will do exceptional job on preventing such things, but let's be real - even the best slip up from time to time.

Marcet

For me, DPS meters brakes inmersion.

Why have more UI in the game?? Why do I want external tools in a role playing game?? Theres hundreds of ways to calculate your damage in the game itself. We don't need the perfect information instantly given to us. This is a fantasy RPG guys, let it be fun, inmersive and engaging.

We are negating ourselves from real game knowledge and a huge part of how the game works by putting some damage calculator UI. Thats disgusting.

It will be much better for the sanity and in-depth knowledge of the game from the comunity, to make them figure out things and really know the game from the inside. Instead of putting a dps meter and ignoring every step on how the game works.

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mojottv
The way that some skills/abilities/talents work may have unforeseen consequences on what they actually do. For example a talent may have description: It takes 30% longer for your rage to decay while outside of combat.

However the implementation was that your rage was increased by 1 every 3 seconds until it dropped to 0. Which means in combat you gained 20 extra rage per minute.

Or another example, talent gives a bleed on your enemy for 30% of your weapon damage if you critical strike him. However it was a bleed that ticked every 3seconds for 12seconds total. So when you crit second time inside the next 12seconds the old unfinished bleed was rewritten with the new one and thus you lost the damage from it. Not only that, if you got enough crit or got lucky enough to crit at least once inside 3 seconds then this talent never did any damage, because it was constantly rewriting itself.

Every game has these things and you cannot catch all unintentional interactions in beta. I believe that Intrepid will do exceptional job on preventing such things, but let's be real - even the best slip up from time to time.

Dude, WOW is bad example to say why AOC needs dps meters, wow's skill descriptions were vague as shit. And basically you're saying that players need dps meters to find bugs in the game? Because thats exactly what you described, its not players job to find bugs, if it was we would have access to source code, maybe we can find and help fix even more bugs?

Marcet wrote: »

For me, DPS meters brakes inmersion.

Why have more UI in the game?? Why do I want external tools in a role playing game?? Theres hundreds of ways to calculate your damage in the game itself. We don't need the perfect information instantly given to us. This is a fantasy RPG guys, let it be fun, inmersive and engaging.

We are negating ourselves from real game knowledge and a huge part of how the game works by putting some damage calculator UI. Thats disgusting.

It will be much better for the sanity and in-depth knowledge of the game from the comunity, to make them figure out things and really know the game from the inside. Instead of putting a dps meter and ignoring every step on how the game works.

Exactly! its a game, not a science project. add to many trackers, meters etc, and will play with numbers more than with your character...

Marcet wrote: »

For me, DPS meters brakes inmersion.

Why have more UI in the game?? Why do I want external tools in a role playing game?? Theres hundreds of ways to calculate your damage in the game itself. We don't need the perfect information instantly given to us. This is a fantasy RPG guys, let it be fun, inmersive and engaging.

I understand this and I agree on you. This is why I want meters being built in the game with restriction for players that can read them correctly and present them the choice if they want to use them.

We are negating ourselves from real game knowledge and a huge part of how the game works by putting some damage calculator UI. Thats disgusting.

This is backwards. Meters deepen the knowledge of the game. Trying to hide information from players is not deepening knowledge, that is the same as saying that burning books in medieval times helped people to have deeper knowledge about their lives, because they didn't have the opportunity to waste time looking into books and instead just living the real world.

It will be much better for the sanity and in-depth knowledge of the game from the comunity, to make them figure out things and really know the game from the inside. Instead of putting a dps meter and ignoring every step on how the game works.

Players that ignore every step on how the game works are not going to change by removing meters from every player. This is on the contrary limiting the options, because people will stick to the same builds that will emerge in beta even after years of playing and any "in-depth" knowledge will be even more restricted to less people in the top-end (mostly because they will just use unofficial trackers)

Marcet wrote: »

It will be much better for the sanity and in-depth knowledge of the game from the comunity, to make them figure out things and really know the game from the inside. Instead of putting a dps meter and ignoring every step on how the game works.

I hate to say it, but this comment suggests a completely superficial understanding of combat trackers.

If we are to understand the game, if we are to have an in depth knowledge of the games combat system, a combat tracker is literally the only possible way.

If you look at games that either didn't have combat trackers or had rules in place so they couldn't be openly discussed, as soon as combat trackers were able to be openly discussed the general population had to go through a crash course in re-learning the game. GW2 is the best example here, but not the only one.

The generally accepted knowledge of the combat system was so far off it was embarassing to those that assisted in forming that general knowledge.

If you agree that knowledge of a game is good, then combat trackers are essential.

Now, I agree that they have issues, and some people see different issues as bigger or smaller than others see the same issue. This is why the suggestion that I have been making in this very thread for over a year now attempts to address those issues.

The suggestion that would address your UI issues is simply to implment a built in combat tracker in to the game client in a way that doesn't provide players with information until after the encounter has finished. You can't clutter up the UI with nothing...

The problem here is that there absolutely will be a working combat tracker for Ashes before it goes to beta 2. If we all assume that Mojottv is correct in that if one person has a combat tracker, all will have to use one to stay relevant, then we need to assume that we will all be using one by the time the game goes live.

That means that if we want to address issues we have with combat trackers, literally the only way to make that happen is if the combat tracker we use is one that is built in to the games client - which again is what I have been fighting for in this thread for a year now.

Noaani wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

It will be much better for the sanity and in-depth knowledge of the game from the comunity, to make them figure out things and really know the game from the inside. Instead of putting a dps meter and ignoring every step on how the game works.

I hate to say it, but this comment suggests a completely superficial understanding of combat trackers.

If we are to understand the game, if we are to have an in depth knowledge of the games combat system, a combat tracker is literally the only possible way.

If you look at games that either didn't have combat trackers or had rules in place so they couldn't be openly discussed, as soon as combat trackers were able to be openly discussed the general population had to go through a crash course in re-learning the game. GW2 is the best example here, but not the only one.

The generally accepted knowledge of the combat system was so far off it was embarassing to those that assisted in forming that general knowledge.

If you agree that knowledge of a game is good, then combat trackers are essential.

Now, I agree that they have issues, and some people see different issues as bigger or smaller than others see the same issue. This is why the suggestion that I have been making in this very thread for over a year now attempts to address those issues.

The suggestion that would address your UI issues is simply to implment a built in combat tracker in to the game client in a way that doesn't provide players with information until after the encounter has finished. You can't clutter up the UI with nothing...

The problem here is that there absolutely will be a working combat tracker for Ashes before it goes to beta 2. If we all assume that Mojottv is correct in that if one person has a combat tracker, all will have to use one to stay relevant, then we need to assume that we will all be using one by the time the game goes live.

That means that if we want to address issues we have with combat trackers, literally the only way to make that happen is if the combat tracker we use is one that is built in to the games client - which again is what I have been fighting for in this thread for a year now.

So you mean, if there are going to be bots for this game everyone will have to use them? Don't think so.
If the bot is implemented in game by developers, then for sure everyone will use it and will have to use it to stay relevant.

Would i be mistaken if I assumed that @Noaani and @Tragnar you are both WOW players?

Do you understand the difference between providing information and automatization of gameplay? @Mojottv

Mojottv wrote: »

Would i be mistaken if I assumed that @Noaani and @Tragnar you are both WOW players?

Yes, you would be mistaken.

That game is the antithesis of good MMO design. I am on record on these forums as having said that I think almost every single design decision Blizzard made with WoW - from raid size to the LFG/LFR system to the crafting system to the class system - was literally the worst direction they could have taken the game.

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Would i be mistaken if I assumed that @Noaani and @Tragnar you are both WOW players?

Yes, you would be mistaken.

That game is the antithesis of good MMO design. I am on record on these forums as having said that I think almost every single design decision Blizzard made with WoW - from raid size to the LFG/LFR system to the crafting system to the class system.

So on what MMO's you base your knowledge on? GW2?

Tragnar wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between providing information and automatization of gameplay? @Mojottv

You missing my point completely. Both things can provide advantage. If its implemented in game, and you're not using them, you are at disadvantage. I will always advocate for fair play.

@Mojottv
I understand, you want to Iron man Ashes am I right?

In that case we should want to hide all displayed combat text, because it provides advantage. It makes no sense to show players numbers but to forbid them to measure those numbers.

As for your question if I play WoW - yes I play still to this day the first expansion - tbc - every xpac after that was eroding any sense of player interaction and counting on players using combat assist addons (which is dogshit). - wow now is terrible and has nothing it once had - except difficult raids

What I see overall from your posts, you want to increase the amount of any kind of grind and decrease the amount of any readable information.

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Would i be mistaken if I assumed that @Noaani and @Tragnar you are both WOW players?

Yes, you would be mistaken.

That game is the antithesis of good MMO design. I am on record on these forums as having said that I think almost every single design decision Blizzard made with WoW - from raid size to the LFG/LFR system to the crafting system to the class system.

So on what MMO's you base your knowledge on? GW2?

My knowledge is based on - in no specific order - WoW (I can't think it is shit if I don't know about it), EQ, EQ2, DDO, Aion, Flyff, PotBS, DCUO, CoH/CoV, WAR, STO, GW, GW2, Vanguard, Rift, Archeage, BDO, ESO, EvE, LotRO, Runescape, AoC the 1st and Allods.

Mojottv wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between providing information and automatization of gameplay? @Mojottv

You missing my point completely. Both things can provide advantage. If its implemented in game, and you're not using them, you are at disadvantage. I will always advocate for fair play.

The entire point here is misplaced.

If bots become a thing in Ashes, and if Intrepid make no moves to combat them, then yes, they will be required to reach the top.

Fortunately, bots are very easy to spot - the only games that have them in large numbers are the games that have developers/producers that allow them to exist.

WoW has them because Blizzard likes the money they bring in.

Some PvP games like L2 have them because they are the only way players have any chance of being able to fend for themselves.

This isn't really a good argument for you to be making though - it hurts your position in this thread and in the open world content thread.

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Would i be mistaken if I assumed that @Noaani and @Tragnar you are both WOW players?

Yes, you would be mistaken.

That game is the antithesis of good MMO design. I am on record on these forums as having said that I think almost every single design decision Blizzard made with WoW - from raid size to the LFG/LFR system to the crafting system to the class system.

So on what MMO's you base your knowledge on? GW2?

My knowledge is based on - in no specific order - WoW (I can't think it is shit if I don't know about it), EQ, EQ2, DDO, Aion, Flyff, PotBS, DCUO, CoH/CoV, WAR, STO, GW, GW2, Vanguard, Rift, Archeage, BDO, ESO, EvE, LotRO, Runescape, AoC the 1st and Allods.

Mojottv wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between providing information and automatization of gameplay? @Mojottv

You missing my point completely. Both things can provide advantage. If its implemented in game, and you're not using them, you are at disadvantage. I will always advocate for fair play.

The entire point here is misplaced.

If bots become a thing in Ashes, and if Intrepid make no moves to combat them, then yes, they will be required to reach the top.

Fortunately, bots are very easy to spot - the only games that have them in large numbers are the games that have developers/producers that allow them to exist.

WoW has them because Blizzard likes the money they bring in.

Some PvP games like L2 have them because they are the only way players have any chance of being able to fend for themselves.

This isn't really a good argument for you to be making though - it hurts your position in this thread and in the open world content thread.

Bots never get you on top, they only help you farm afk. Same same thing can be done without bots by investing time. They make playing easier, but that doesn't mean it can't be achieved without them. My point is if its implemented in game, thats not cheating. So everyone has to use them. If not, if bots are 3rd party, thats cheating and even if there's a lot of cheaters i the game i would not resort to that just to get competitive edge, but thats just me.

In l2 i was able to fend for myself without resorting to cheating, took me longer to get there, but still.

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mojottv
I understand, you want to Iron man Ashes am I right?

In that case we should want to hide all displayed combat text, because it provides advantage. It makes no sense to show players numbers but to forbid them to measure those numbers.

As for your question if I play WoW - yes I play still to this day the first expansion - tbc - every xpac after that was eroding any sense of player interaction and counting on players using combat assist addons (which is dogshit). - wow now is terrible and has nothing it once had - except difficult raids

What I see overall from your posts, you want to increase the amount of any kind of grind and decrease the amount of any readable information.

yes i want the game thats reasonably hard and challenging, as there are none of these mmos among modern mmos.

And yes, i dont like when there's too much information readily available, especially ingame trackers calculators etc anything thats lowers the bar