Open world raids

There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

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Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

Clearly you missed the point (likely on purpose) that I was saying WoW raids are in no way hard, and anyone that has raided at the top end of almost any other game is able to slip in to WoW raids and function just fine - even though the opposite is not at all true (it usually takes a top end WoW raider about 6 weeks to get up to speed in most other games, as there is more going on, and less artificial assistance).

Nice gatekeeping. The only true raiding is raiding that @Noaani approves of. I will keep that in mind from here on out. I will add that to the list of things I've learned from you, such as "botting is alright if the game is hard" and "PvE players are actually better at PvP than PvP players".

All of the things you say make complete sense to me.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

Nice gatekeeping. The only true raiding is raiding that Noaani approves of.

I once had someone try to tell me that they consider the marketplace in games to be a form of PvP. They compete with other players in buying and selling goods in order to make the most money. Since they are competing with other players, this is PvP.

Now, you and I probably look at that statement in the same way - I actually laughed out loud when I realised the person that said it was serious.

However, if that person wants to consider that as PvP (this was in Archeage, too), then more power to them.

I would imagine that if this was the only PvP that Ashes offered up, you would not be interested in the game.

If you want to consider WoW raids to be raiding, more power to you.

If that is the only raiding that Ashes offers up, I will not be interested in the game.

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

Any and all content in an MMO should offer up rewards appropriate to the time investment (there is no risk in an MMO, just time investment).

Your suggestion did not take that in to account (in fact it deliberately threw it out the window) and as such is not worth serious consideration.

What you are failing to understand is that the suggestion being put up would allow people to have exactly three encounters per week that they can kill without PvP. That is not content that you can farm - as once killed, there is nothing left to kill until next week.

The real issue I think you have is that you know perfectly well that you are not cut out for real PvE content - no PvP players are. In my experience of both a PvE only game and a PvP centric game, PvE players are better suited to PvP than PvP players are to PvE.

No wonder you don't want PvE without PvP.

What you fail to understand is that when you have a big giant flashing light that says "best loot in the game here", everyone comes along to try and get it.

Ohh look at you trying to think I forgot about your "reward" I amended my proposal by offering you the super l33t NPC slayer title. But what you fail to acknowledge is that both you and @CaptnChuck kept preaching is how you and "most" people just want challenging PvE content. You even said "very few" want it for "farming" which would be the definition of loot. So you're admitting here openly that you only want instanced PvE for loot correct?

You seem to think I fail to understand a lot of things while I'm just reading through your open lying about why you want things. How boring is "There are 3 encounters per week set your schedules for this PvE content to gear up".

Yes of course now I understand the PvE players dominatae when it comes to PvP but us poor PvP players get destroyed by NPCs. This is exactly right how did I not see this coming you got me man, I can't kill NPCs especially the ones inside of instances I'll never be able to keep up with your awesomeness this is exactly why I don't want instance content.

By the way again with the failing... the "giant flashing light" is exactly the point in "contested resources". You know if your guild keeps getting destroyed at these flashing light events, you might have to form an alliance or quit the game because we all know the game fails when you can't get that shiny loot easily.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The real issue I think you have is that you know perfectly well that you are not cut out for real PvE content - no PvP players are. In my experience of both a PvE only game and a PvP centric game, PvE players are better suited to PvP than PvP players are to PvE.

This is without a doubt the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. Stand out of fire, do DPS rotation, avoid 3 abilities, and win free gear is hard to you as opposed to playing against an actual thinking opponent with a brain who isn't completely scripted, researchable, and predictable. You are just being downright silly at this point.

Congratulations, you killed a trash mob.

Congrats, I just killed most raid bosses. I Cleared all of SSC/TK and most of BT before i got bored of WoW and ended my time raiding. It's just not very challenging to me, sorry.

As I said, trash mobs.

WoW raiding isn't really raiding.

I assist my brothers guild with mythical raids in WoW on occasion, they are not hard. I've played I think five different classes (though I admit, never a tank), and it never takes me more than one pull to get the hang of both the new class and the new encounter - and that is without having ever leveled a character up in that game, or even owning an account other than a trial.

Honestly, if WoW raids are the best we can hope for in regards to PvE in this game, I'll stay away from MMO's for a while. Fortunately, this game has a lot of ex-EQ2 developers making it.

Hahaha, and this guy said on some thread that he's not a WOW player

Yet he is assitng his guildmates with epic raids in WOW

Tyrantor

Now I'm just curious to know what main stream MMO games these epic raids came from @Noaani please enlighten us. I hope for your sake they are like 2nd and 3rd place in terms of subscriber success for the development teams all time in MMO history so your argument of "game fail because pvp bad" doesn't come back to bite you.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The real issue I think you have is that you know perfectly well that you are not cut out for real PvE content - no PvP players are. In my experience of both a PvE only game and a PvP centric game, PvE players are better suited to PvP than PvP players are to PvE.

This is without a doubt the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum. Stand out of fire, do DPS rotation, avoid 3 abilities, and win free gear is hard to you as opposed to playing against an actual thinking opponent with a brain who isn't completely scripted, researchable, and predictable. You are just being downright silly at this point.

Congratulations, you killed a trash mob.

Congrats, I just killed most raid bosses. I Cleared all of SSC/TK and most of BT before i got bored of WoW and ended my time raiding. It's just not very challenging to me, sorry.

As I said, trash mobs.

WoW raiding isn't really raiding.

I assist my brothers guild with mythical raids in WoW on occasion, they are not hard. I've played I think five different classes (though I admit, never a tank), and it never takes me more than one pull to get the hang of both the new class and the new encounter - and that is without having ever leveled a character up in that game, or even owning an account other than a trial.

Honestly, if WoW raids are the best we can hope for in regards to PvE in this game, I'll stay away from MMO's for a while. Fortunately, this game has a lot of ex-EQ2 developers making it.

Hahaha, and this guy said on some thread that he's not a WOW player Yet he is assitng his guildmates with epic raids in WOW

Assisting my brother and my brothers guild.

I mean, it is literally right there in the post you quoted.

Bricktop

You should really wait and see what the devs PvE content looks like before you start demanding X amount of raid instances with Y difficulty settings. You genuinely have no idea what the games PvE content will play like. If the game launches and the PvE content isn't to your liking you are free to game play a game that you enjoy. Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful. I for one am excited for some world bosses and I'm willing to bet money myself and many other people will enjoy them.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful.

You realize, I assume, that this statement that PvE content should be challenging, is a comment made by Intrepid that saw a lot of people back this game.

Backing down on this is like you backing down on PvP wishes you have - Intrepid have told you the game will be heavy PvP, and no doubt that is why you are here.

I want Intrepid to come through with what Intrepid have said, just as you do.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful.

You realize, I assume, that this statement that PvE content should be challenging, is a comment made by Intrepid that saw a lot of people back this game.

Backing down on this is like you backing down on PvP wishes you have - Intrepid have told you the game will be heavy PvP, and no doubt that is why you are here.

I want Intrepid to come through with what Intrepid have said, just as you do.

Pve is going to be challenging. Just because pvp can happen doesn't change that fact.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful.

You realize, I assume, that this statement that PvE content should be challenging, is a comment made by Intrepid that saw a lot of people back this game.

Backing down on this is like you backing down on PvP wishes you have - Intrepid have told you the game will be heavy PvP, and no doubt that is why you are here.

I want Intrepid to come through with what Intrepid have said, just as you do.

Pve is going to be challenging. Just because pvp can happen doesn't change that fact.

It has in literally every other game, and Intrepid has not yet given us a reason as to why that could be different here.

Tyrantor

I see you've ignored my posts and questions on these MMO games with these epic NPC battles that are so hard most of us couldn't even begin to understand or better yet we've already failed to understand.

GG on the PvE for loot conversation guess I was right after all.. another win for the guy who fails to understand things.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful.

You realize, I assume, that this statement that PvE content should be challenging, is a comment made by Intrepid that saw a lot of people back this game.

Backing down on this is like you backing down on PvP wishes you have - Intrepid have told you the game will be heavy PvP, and no doubt that is why you are here.

I want Intrepid to come through with what Intrepid have said, just as you do.

Pve is going to be challenging. Just because pvp can happen doesn't change that fact.

It has in literally every other game, and Intrepid has not yet given us a reason as to why that could be different here.

According to you, even when pve is instanced in other games and pvp isn't present it's easy so I don't get that argument.

Xyls

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful.

You realize, I assume, that this statement that PvE content should be challenging, is a comment made by Intrepid that saw a lot of people back this game.

Backing down on this is like you backing down on PvP wishes you have - Intrepid have told you the game will be heavy PvP, and no doubt that is why you are here.

I want Intrepid to come through with what Intrepid have said, just as you do.

Pve is going to be challenging. Just because pvp can happen doesn't change that fact.

It has in literally every other game, and Intrepid has not yet given us a reason as to why that could be different here.

It's called revolutionizing the genre. It's what we are all hoping Intrepid can do with this game. I'd rather them try and do that then them listen to the whining from PvE'rs trying to limit the scope of PvP because the game vision doesn't match with what they have played in the past, thus resulting in another boring PvE-centric game that dies within a year.

Hurf Derfman

I've lurked on these forum's long enough to understand that Noaani is absolutely a care bear plant.

Vhaeyne

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

I've lurked on these forum's long enough to understand that Noaani is absolutely a care bear plant.

Noaani seems pretty relentless about his/her opinions sure, but I have not gotten any care bear vibes. I share the same concern about open world raids. The way it stands right now there seems to be no real zerg protection in place that will prevent these world bosses from being cake walks.

I just went through the wiki again looking to see if there is anything about actual zerg protection. In all of the statements and references Steven keeps repeating the same naive line about zergs having to know the mechanics as if that is some kinda zerg prevention.

I tell you. If world first raiders in WOW/FFXIV could just throw their entire guild at a fight. The race to would first would be over in the blink of an eye. Wanting high end raids to take place in an appropriate venue is not a care bear mentality. It is exactly the opposite. The idea is to preserve the challenge. A difficult raid boss takes hours to days to progress. Ultimate in FFXIV takes even longer. In fact Ultimate makes it so that you can never out gear the fight to try and preserve the difficulty. You can't have that in an open world, and you can't have that with a zerg.

Like I said in the thread earlier. I don't expect any actual raid bosses in AoC. I can always keep a sub for a game that focuses on this as a side game. There is nothing wrong with AoC having a bunch of cute tank and spanks for people to fight over.

Hurf Derfman

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

I've lurked on these forum's long enough to understand that Noaani is absolutely a care bear plant.

Noaani seems pretty relentless about his/her opinions sure, but I have not gotten any care bear vibes. I share the same concern about open world raids. The way it stands right now there seems to be no real zerg protection in place that will prevent these world bosses from being cake walks.

I just went through the wiki again looking to see if there is anything about actual zerg protection. In all of the statements and references Steven keeps repeating the same naive line about zergs having to know the mechanics as if that is some kinda zerg prevention.

I tell you. If world first raiders in WOW/FFXIV could just throw their entire guild at a fight. The race to would first would be over in the blink of an eye. Wanting high end raids to take place in an appropriate venue is not a care bear mentality. It is exactly the opposite. The idea is to preserve the challenge. A difficult raid boss takes hours to days to progress. Ultimate in FFXIV takes even longer. In fact Ultimate makes it so that you can never out gear the fight to try and preserve the difficulty. You can't have that in an open world, and you can't have that with a zerg.

Like I said in the thread earlier. I don't expect any actual raid bosses in AoC. I can always keep a sub for a game that focuses on this as a side game. There is nothing wrong with AoC having a bunch of cute tank and spanks for people to fight over.

To that I would add that Steven has also pointed out that there will be a DPS metric guaranteeing loot to the group who does better damage to the boss.

While this is all theoretical. I think that is a good idea I can get behind, because it would prevent kill sniping on the boss and if you wanted to make somebody wipe, sure you could wipe them by killing their healers or tanks or whatever but you still want the boss to reset, so that you would ensure that your party / raid gets the loot.

Kneczhevo

@Noaani

If you read my thread, I think my revelation might quell your concern, about spank and tank of Bosses and Raid Encounters. But, since it was hijacked, I can understand.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46608/the-buffed-boss-and-you

Kneczhevo wrote: »

What I heard was; Bosses will be effected by surrounding nodes, based on type and size.

How I interpreted this: The surrounding nodes will "buff" the Boss, making the Boss different on every encounter.

So, let's say, you have a Boss in a Stage 5 Economic Node, and has X,Y stats and abilities (standard game boss). Because it's next to a stage 3 divine node, it now receives Z ability. And because of the stage 4 military node, the Boss now receives A,B,C boosts. Those tiny nodes (1-2) surrounding our spawn node, might only offer hit point and resistances. You follow me?

This means no Boss will ever be the same, no matter the node or server. The combinations are almost boundless (4 node types x 6 node stages x number of surrounding nodes, etc).

I am not trying to convince you, into sticking around. This game may not be for you. Some of us are swooned, by what we hear. It's all consentual.

@Hurf Derfman

I resent the Carebear remark!1!! Prepare to die. After I flag. 👹

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Sitting around saying "The PvE content should be challenging" isn't exactly helpful.

You realize, I assume, that this statement that PvE content should be challenging, is a comment made by Intrepid that saw a lot of people back this game.

Backing down on this is like you backing down on PvP wishes you have - Intrepid have told you the game will be heavy PvP, and no doubt that is why you are here.

I want Intrepid to come through with what Intrepid have said, just as you do.

Pve is going to be challenging. Just because pvp can happen doesn't change that fact.

It has in literally every other game, and Intrepid has not yet given us a reason as to why that could be different here.

According to you, even when pve is instanced in other games and pvp isn't present it's easy so I don't get that argument.

Nah, it's only really WoW that is too easy.

Both EQ games, Rift, Vanguard back in the day, AoC the 1st, WAR, these games all had some good, hard PvE.

Not every encounter, usually only one or two per content cycle, but that is all you need.

I do get why you would think that though.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

I've lurked on these forum's long enough to understand that Noaani is absolutely a care bear plant.

As a seemingly PvP centric player, I'm going to assume you are familar with Archeage.

I spent almost 5 years playing that game, 18 months of that time I was the only pirate on the server, and spent my time farming trees and braziers in Auroria.

You don't do that if you are care bear.

Though like with my above post, I can see why you would think that.

Ashes has got it's PvP content taken care of. We have been told about it, about the systems, when the systems apply and when they don't apply. Really, we know a lot about PvP in Ashes.

We don't know much about PvE in Ashes. Not much at all. Almost nothing, in fact.

Now, it will come as no surprise to you that I love good PvE content. Hopefully, based on this post, you will also understand that I am not at all against (and in fact enjoy) good PvP. I also enjoy it when the two are combined.

In Ashes, we know we will have times where we have PvP. We also know there will be times where we have PvE combined with PvP. What we don't have any knowledge of is when we have just PvE.

Since I enjoy all three, and we currently have knowledge of two out of the three, that last one is what I will fight for.

If Intrepid had have said the game will have PvP, but here is a whole load of info in regards to the PvE we have planned, I'd be here fighting for PvP instead of PvE.

THis is why I am able to say without any hesitation that people saying "you just want to avoid PvP" clearly do not understand the arguments made - as no one is asking for a way to avoid PvP - just the ability to set it aside for a brief period.

Tragnar

I'm kinda through reading posts of PvP players punching PvE players for being bad and wanting easy mode, so I'll gladly punch back

Open world pvp is not about how good players are

it is about getting better gear so you can smash the other guy without actually being better.
it is about numbers advantage
it is about being undetected to ambush others
it is about finding anything to gain any fair(during combat)/unfair(before combat) advantage in the game to win a PvP battle
it is about socializing in nonverbal way (with your enemy)

MMO such as ashes is first and foremost about socializing with others. If you are here advocating for dumming down PvE and elevating PvP prowess then it only shows that you are actually looking for vindication with only putting time investment in.

Anyone who is serious for being good at PvP is looking for games that provide PvP combat with equal footing - be it a MOBA where it starts with picking your champions or a tactical shooter or any other genre that provides competition with equal footing.

PvE is about a static difficulty and about steady progression - the same way as you might take up running and making progress on how far you can run in 30minutes.

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