DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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HellFrost

I don't think DPS meters will matter too much in this game. Raids themselves won't be too mechanically difficult, therefore a need for DPS meter to know who's slacking who's not will not be there.

Mojottv

I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff

Eques3n

Mojottv wrote: »

I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff

Agree 100%. This or (in my opinion) people who have a vested interest in making a DPS meter type mod/addon and then marketing it for players to use.

Caeryl

Mojottv wrote: »

I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff

Combat trackers aren’t about “Is it good enough?”, they’re about “What works better?”

You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off

Chunks

Caeryl wrote: »

You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off

How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?

Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number

) after previous failures. Avenues to improve; beat your own record on times, players alive, or other variances in strategy can still be accomplished with experience (and the coveted gear upgrades from successive... successes

) rather than forcing as much out of your meters as possible.

Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.

Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.

Caeryl

You really wanna try to claim it’s objective information that’s going to discourage experimentation? The thing that is required for experimentation is supposedly going to make people afraid of it?

You just have a very negative attitude towards players who value performance. I’ve not seen anyone be more toxic than groups of casual players who whine and yell at developers when better players (surprise surprise) perform better than they do.

I’ve been in hardcore guilds that were way more chilled than the wannabe hardcores. I’ve seen people kicked from progression guilds for giving advice to players in a dps discussion thread. The hardcore players who use this information to its fullest are always the most helpful and most willing to teach.

Half the time, “toxicity” from high end raiders is nothing more than them not being willing to carry someone who isn’t willing to attempt improvement, or who literally cannot perform to the level needed to clear the content. You aren’t entitled to waste someone’s time.

“It’ll force players to play a certain way” yeah it’ll make sure they have to pull their weight, and they can’t hide poor performance in an effort to get carried.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

I mean the biggest dps meter supporters are the wow raiders who cant raid if they dont have numbers which tell them if they can or cant kill the raid boss. At this point its even ridiculous to discuss this as clearly people who support this games vision are against dps meters, its just people who want to see another "wow killer" are who wants this kind of stuff

Combat trackers can't tell you whether you can or can't kill any encounter in a game.

You are just making shit up now, and then claiming it is ridiculous to discuss this with supporters of combat trackers.

I mean, I agree, it would be ridiculous for you and I to discuss how combat trackers tell players if they can or can't kill a raid boss - but only because that is a completely absurd notion to begin with.

Tragnar

Chunks wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off

How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?

Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number ) after previous failures. Avenues to improve; beat your own record on times, players alive, or other variances in strategy can still be accomplished with experience (and the coveted gear upgrades from successive... successes ) rather than forcing as much out of your meters as possible.

Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.

Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.

I agree that these goals for organic improvement is so important and immersive. The only problem I have is that you are proposing for everyone to value things based on their subjective feel and their own ideas.

The thing that will come out as "best" from such system without objective information is at best mediocre build that the loudest person shared on the most places for the sheep that follow meta to follow blindly.

Don't exchange objective information for guesswork of the loudest person that sounds most convincing.

maouw

Tragnar wrote: »

Chunks wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

You wanting to keep everyone in the dark with information obscured and difficult to use would make the entire community worse off

How will it make the community worse off? Because some niche world first speed running PvE progression will be inhibited? Is the community going to be unable to adapt and fail to clear content without meters?

Maybe the community should be in the dark. To open up more discussion referencing ideas, experiments, and experiences in that pursuit of bettering your build. To allow the community to pursue an expressive path of play without such an oppressive pressure of playing what is more statistically optimal. To facilitate more creative builds, metas, communication, and problem solving in the face of adversity with their own knowledge of the game. Numbers aren't the metric for success and improvement if a boss' health reaches 0 (RIP... that's a number ) after previous failures. Avenues to improve; beat your own record on times, players alive, or other variances in strategy can still be accomplished with experience (and the coveted gear upgrades from successive... successes ) rather than forcing as much out of your meters as possible.

Progress, in it's various forms, should happen organically. Pushing numbers can stifle that as much as help it develop; for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best". And to be fair, I think that in a group setting these points would be equally toxic as being uninformed - the variance would be on individual players' expectations for their teammates. Additionally, most plainly, a lot of players will feel like they need to take the objectively-proven most efficient and optimal style of play when numbers are easily available - at the expense of fun. Some will make their fun in trying to push the most meta builds in extreme PvE progression. I'm not sure that is reflective of the community as a whole, though. I certainly hope not.

Inb4 the obligatory "Those things won't happen without DPS meters, and 100% will happen with DPS meters only."
: )
Nobody is mystified as to what logs bring to the table. What you need to remove from said table to make room for it is the concern. The freedom of choice will become an illusion as a community created funnel dictates how players interact with both each other, their own character, and the content.

I agree that these goals for organic improvement is so important and immersive. The only problem I have is that you are proposing for everyone to value things based on their subjective feel and their own ideas.

The thing that will come out as "best" from such system without objective information is at best mediocre build that the loudest person shared on the most places for the sheep that follow meta to follow blindly.

Don't exchange objective information for guesswork of the loudest person that sounds most convincing.

The scenario you describe here is the ideal though, isn't it? Where sheep are following a false meta, and there's opporunity for you to find your own unique build that's BETTER than the meta?

I'd prefer sheep being unoptimized, than everyone playing the "objectively" proven #1 build.

That's what I mean by the DPS meter ruining imagination.

Noaani

maouw wrote: »

The scenario you describe here is the ideal though, isn't it? Where sheep are following a false meta, and there's opporunity for you to find your own unique build that's BETTER than the meta?

I'd prefer sheep being unoptimized, than everyone playing the "objectively" proven #1 build.

That's what I mean by the DPS meter ruining imagination.

You are assuming a static meta, or perhaps a PvE only game with static content.

In a game with ever-changing PvE content and a high degree of PvP, there will always be a new build to come up with.

It may be a build to better take on the new PvE encounter the server just accessed, or it may be a build to counter various builds that are a part of the games current meta.

There will be plenty of opportunity for creative people to come up with new builds in Ashes, and a combat tracker will make that process easier and faster (in fact, a combat tracker will make the process accepted, without one it will not be accepted). The only people that would complain about a lack of creativity are people that lack creativity.

Maslax

DPS meter is a type of dick-measuring contest.
And the fewer there are, the better it is for the game.

Noaani

Maslax wrote: »

DPS meter is a type of dick-measuring contest.
And the fewer there are, the better it is for the game.

Only people that are insecure about such things think this.

Tragnar

Maslax wrote: »

DPS meter is a type of dick-measuring contest.
And the fewer there are, the better it is for the game.

Literally most systems in the game are a dick-measuring systems - especially when you look at the amount of different leaderboards that are confirmed

Mojottv

Well, what i find funny, is that biggest advocates for DPS meters are the people PVE'rs, instance raiders etc... so maybe its a good indication, that this game doesn't need DPS meters, as its not PVE focused game but PVX?

Tragnar

Interesting correlation

what I find funny is that PvP players want the game to have only PvP activities in the game while at the same time avoiding PvP on equal footing. Is ganking honestly the only thing you want Ashes to strive towards?

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Well, what i find funny, is that biggest advocates for DPS meters are the people PVE'rs, instance raiders etc... so maybe its a good indication, that this game doesn't need DPS meters, as its not PVE focused game but PVX?

I've been saying for about 50 pages now that combat trackers are significantly less useful in PvP as they are in PvE.

Fortunately, PvX means both PvE and PvP, so a combat tracker is still viable for the PvE portion of it.

Moid

It sounds like AoC is going to by the typical PvE MMO with the typical PvP addon. The PvE sounds like it is going to be designed like PvE has been historically designed with raids and boss mobs and trash mobs and the like. I cannot imagine PvP being designed much differently than what I’ve found in other MMOs, quick battles rather than the drawn out fight you would get with a even a trash PvE mob.

That’s a little disappointing but maybe I’m completely wrong. Maybe AoC will be different. I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

Mojottv

Tragnar wrote: »

Interesting correlation

what I find funny is that PvP players want the game to have only PvP activities in the game while at the same time avoiding PvP on equal footing. Is ganking honestly the only thing you want Ashes to strive towards?

First i didnt see anyone asking for more pvp activities, as pvp is not some activity you go and do, its more just part of core gameplay, and most people here just dont want this core element to be limited.

And i think you dont really understand how these type of games work.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Well, what i find funny, is that biggest advocates for DPS meters are the people PVE'rs, instance raiders etc... so maybe its a good indication, that this game doesn't need DPS meters, as its not PVE focused game but PVX?

I've been saying for about 50 pages now that combat trackers are significantly less useful in PvP as they are in PvE.

Fortunately, PvX means both PvE and PvP, so a combat tracker is still viable for the PvE portion of it.

Well exactly, and this game is meant to be PVX game, not PVE and PVP game(hope you can understand what i mean by this), so maybe the DPS meters are not needed at all?

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Well, what i find funny, is that biggest advocates for DPS meters are the people PVE'rs, instance raiders etc... so maybe its a good indication, that this game doesn't need DPS meters, as its not PVE focused game but PVX?

I've been saying for about 50 pages now that combat trackers are significantly less useful in PvP as they are in PvE.

Fortunately, PvX means both PvE and PvP, so a combat tracker is still viable for the PvE portion of it.

Well exactly, and this game is meant to be PVX game, not PVE and PVP game(hope you can understand what i mean by this), so maybe the DPS meters are not needed at all?

But the game will still have PvE. It will have PvP too, but it will also have PvE. They will even happen at the same time, but this only adds to the need to have a combat tracker, not detract from it. This argument only makes sense if you are suggesting there will never be any PvE in Ashes.

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