DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Except you will have pve in nodewars as monster coin stuff, with mobs attacking node and citizens defending it as well as needing to take castles from NPC's and even if the castle is player owned, to take castle ytou will need to defeat a raid.

I think you are missing some basic understanding of some of what you are talking about here.

Node wars and monster coin events are in no way connected.

A node war happens any time a node declares a war on another node. It is a pure PvP situation. As are guild wars.

A monster coin event is essentially random (as far as we know) and sees a monster attack a node. However, the namesake of these events, monster coins, allow players to take over said monster. So really, monster coin events are monsters controlled by players attacking nodes and defeated by other players.

Also, there is absolutely nothing at all to stop rivals from attacking and killing players attempting to take on that monster.

If you think killing a guard during a siege constitutes PvE as opposed to a PvP objective (which is what Intrepid are labeling it as), then again, you do not know what PvE is.

Yes i know nothing, and you know everything, except that monster coin even is pve event where mobs are attacking a node and some players can assume role of a monster through monster coin, but largely its a nodes citizens defending against mobs.

You should honestly seek help in understanding even simple concepts. Like if a player can use NPC as a vehicle for PvP combat then it is still PvP activity and not PvE

Oh you two.... Read about Monster coin thing.... its mainly players vs mobs, with small portion of mobs being other players, still essentially PVE...

At absolute best, it is PvE with PvP thrown in. There will be players coming to control the bosses (that is the point of these events), but there will also be rivals from other nodes coming to attack players trying to defend their node, in an effort to allow the monster coin event to do more damage.

Since we are talking about times when PvE and PvP are seperate, this is simply not one of them.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Except you will have pve in nodewars as monster coin stuff, with mobs attacking node and citizens defending it as well as needing to take castles from NPC's and even if the castle is player owned, to take castle ytou will need to defeat a raid.

I think you are missing some basic understanding of some of what you are talking about here.

Node wars and monster coin events are in no way connected.

A node war happens any time a node declares a war on another node. It is a pure PvP situation. As are guild wars.

A monster coin event is essentially random (as far as we know) and sees a monster attack a node. However, the namesake of these events, monster coins, allow players to take over said monster. So really, monster coin events are monsters controlled by players attacking nodes and defeated by other players.

Also, there is absolutely nothing at all to stop rivals from attacking and killing players attempting to take on that monster.

If you think killing a guard during a siege constitutes PvE as opposed to a PvP objective (which is what Intrepid are labeling it as), then again, you do not know what PvE is.

Yes i know nothing, and you know everything, except that monster coin even is pve event where mobs are attacking a node and some players can assume role of a monster through monster coin, but largely its a nodes citizens defending against mobs.

You should honestly seek help in understanding even simple concepts. Like if a player can use NPC as a vehicle for PvP combat then it is still PvP activity and not PvE

Oh you two.... Read about Monster coin thing.... its mainly players vs mobs, with small portion of mobs being other players, still essentially PVE...

At absolute best, it is PvE with PvP thrown in. There will be players coming to control the bosses (that is the point of these events), but there will also be rivals from other nodes coming to attack players trying to defend their node, in an effort to allow the monster coin event to do more damage.

Since we are talking about times when PvE and PvP are seperate, this is simply not one of them.

Yes its not completely separate. Still pve event though. This game is not about separating content Nd players but about uniting everything.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Yes its not completely separate. Still pve event though. This game is not about separating content Nd players but about uniting everything.

However, that does not mean there can't be situations where only PvP (military node leadership arena) or only PvE (instanced content) exist.

Basically, what I am saying is that the notion presented that PvX means PvE and PvP together, all the time is completely off the mark. Intrepid have already given us examples of when each will exist without the other, so attempting to argue that they need to always be together in order for the game to be PvX is completely untrue.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

Yes its not completely separate. Still pve event though. This game is not about separating content Nd players but about uniting everything.

However, that does not mean there can't be situations where only PvP (military node leadership arena) or only PvE (instanced content) exist.

Basically, what I am saying is that the notion presented that PvX means PvE and PvP together, all the time is completely off the mark. Intrepid have already given us examples of when each will exist without the other, so attempting to argue that they need to always be together in order for the game to be PvX is completely untrue.

Noone is saying there wont be cases where only one or other only happens. But generally speaking, when you go out to kill some mobs, its not like you have to fight off people every 2 minutes, unless you're being an asshole to everyone around. in any case, its off the topic now, as topic is DPS meters.

I already stated, that I would be against them and why. No need to continue this discussion unless valid points are presented, apart for making it easier to make new builds or that they will exist any way. If it makes it easier i don't want it.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

I already stated, that I would be against them and why.

You did, and a big part of it was that combat trackers are not that useful in PvP - which I agree.

So I take it you are all for combat trackers if they only work in PvE combat.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

I already stated, that I would be against them and why.

You did, and a big part of it was that combat trackers are not that useful in PvP - which I agree.

So I take it you are all for combat trackers if they only work in PvE combat.

No, because as I stated before, I'm against making things easier. So it will make PVE combat, and making builds for PVE combat easier, so I'm against that. Making build is part of the RPG fun.

Tragnar

Saying that meters make creating builds easier is the same as saying that no meters present make creating builds harder ok?

If so then what is the difficulty? The only thing that comes to my mind is that you don't have data on what the build does in practice and thus you only go from your theorycraft assumptions - and let me tell you all people get it wrong. That is why people use correction tools that allow them to identify weak points - for mmo it is a meter

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

I already stated, that I would be against them and why.

You did, and a big part of it was that combat trackers are not that useful in PvP - which I agree.

So I take it you are all for combat trackers if they only work in PvE combat.

No, because as I stated before, I'm against making things easier. So it will make PVE combat, and making builds for PVE combat easier, so I'm against that. Making build is part of the RPG fun.

It will mean there are more options for builds in combat for each class, which means when you come up to a given class, you won't automatically know what abilities they will have, nor what augments those abilities will have.

As such, it makes PvP harder/more interesting.

Any way that a combat tracker makes PvE content easier can be accounted for in developing the content. This is an arguement we had about 45 pages back - I'll attempt to give you the CliffsNotes version of that discussion.

Basically, it is possible to create a PvE encounter that is literally impossible to kill (I have seen a few that were specifically designed to be impossible to kill).

Since it is possible to do this, it is possible to make a PvE encounter at literally any difficulty the developers desire, from one shot kills, up to literally unable to be killed.

Developers decide how hard they want an encounter to be very early on in the development process, it is actually usually the very first decision made (before the location of the encounter, the name of the encounter and the race of the encounter, they will know the intended difficulty).

So, in order to compensate for combat trackers, all developers need to do is ever so slightly increase the difficulty of the encounter - which as above they will always have plenty of room to do.

With that, you still have content that is exactly as hard as the developers intended it to be, with combat trackers. As such, the idea that a combat tracker makes content easier is bunk.

URanu5

Sorry, not sorry as it comes off as an ad hominem but this is an attack on your character; the only real reason people do not want DPS (Which implies HPS, Interupt, Damage Taken, Damage Mitigated, GTFO counter, etc.) Meters is because they want to play the game for aesthetics and not progression. Selfish and irresponsible reasoning is only implied in the disconnect of what a Meter is used for. Saying that -you-, the one player in a team of many think it is ruining the focus of the team to look at numbers for a problem -is a problem-. Saying that you do not want others knowing what they are doing or how they are doing, is a staple of bad teamwork.

I find it frankly insulting that people think Meters are the -be all- of gamer conflict when we all know drama comes from false information which is spread more easily if there are no metrics in place. This is a bad move, to not have and blame meters for problems that are going to happen anyway. People will figure out how what classes/specs are weak and it is up to the game designers to add those niche moves/abilities that will help in only certain situations meant to be thought about.

Tragnar

@URanu5
Careful, others will reply their bad experience of being kicked for playing offmeta builds and how the game will be harder without meters and that added difficulty from missing information is the enjoyable one

Oh and I forgot that it will be much harder to hide imbalances and bugs

Did I forget any arguments that were said against having meters?

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

@URanu5
Careful, others will reply their bad experience of being kicked for playing offmeta builds and how the game will be harder without meters and that added difficulty from missing information is the enjoyable one

Oh and I forgot that it will be much harder to hide imbalances and bugs

Did I forget any arguments that were said against having meters?

Immersion, don't forget that one!

Marcet

@Noaani @Tragnar @URanu5

We don't want that piece of UI or anyone to have it. We don't want to deal with that in game.
And yeah, an extra piece of UI for DPS is inmersion breaking.

You asking if we don't want objective and clear information??? Exactly, we don't want it.

You asking if we prefer to spend one week scratching our head for the same result??? Yes, that's what we want.

So I don't care if the toxicity is the same, I dont care if we miss info for some time, I don't care if I have to do trial and error, I don't care if It takes more time to figure out things. I prefer it this way.

For me it's an artificial tool that makes the game too easy, simple and boring.

Ask Steven his reasons to not implement it, because he must have.

Caeryl

Marcet wrote: »

We don't want that piece of UI or anyone to have it. We don't want to deal with that in game.
And yeah, an extra piece of UI for DPS is inmersion breaking.

You asking if we don't want objective and clear information??? Exactly, we don't want it.

You asking if we prefer to spend one week scratching our head for the same result??? Yes, that's what we want.

So I don't care if the toxicity is the same, I dont care if we miss info for some time, I don't care if I have to do trial and error, I don't care if It takes more time to figure out things. I prefer it this way.

For me it's an artificial tool that makes the game too easy, simple and boring.

Ask Steven his reasons to not implement it, because he must have.

Steven is under the wrong impression that objective information causes toxicity.

Your personal desire to obfuscate information is at best incredibly selfish on top of being laughably shortsighted. If the only way you get difficulty out of a game is when the game tells you nothing of value, then your game is not difficult, it is just frustrating.

Difficulty comes when a players knows exactly what they need to do, but the game requires high skills levels, accurate timing, and near-perfect positioning. If simply knowing what’s going on has removed all the the difficulty, then your encounter wasn’t difficult to start with.

halbarz

Tragnar wrote: »

@URanu5
Careful, others will reply their bad experience of being kicked for playing offmeta builds and how the game will be harder without meters and that added difficulty from missing information is the enjoyable one

Oh and I forgot that it will be much harder to hide imbalances and bugs

Did I forget any arguments that were said against having meters?

Quickly jumping in here, this whole thread is a discussion between a hand full of people.
Maybe you and some others are decent people, others might be J*rks or toxic. Of course, if people are toxic they will always find something to kick or etc. Sadly tools often support an already toxic person to the point it can escalate. Be for or against meters this is just a fact.

I personally do not want meters myself, the reasons I guess are different than that of others. That doesn't take away that I believe everyone should be able to enjoy the game, some want a meter others don't.

Some people might be good performers in an encounter (dungeon, raid, etc) but do want to have their info shared or just do not want/bother with them. This is kind where I stand (personal choice right?)

I do not agree that a meter should be enforced on people directly or indirectly, but as mentioned before I do want people like yourself to enjoy the game, why not

Having a meter that is "open/public" puts a strain and pressure on a lot of people, if you are sensible you will realize this.

So I do think that a Guild Perk that introduces a Meter just for your guild and it's members, only seeing the info of those guild members (when in group) would be the best solution. This would benefit everyone and yes also make those guilds stand out, it would make some guilds unique. Of course, this perk should come at a cost (for example not being able to put points into the passive buffs or increasing the size)

The idea of a perk sadly got lost, as people tend to just go back and forward on why they want or not want one. Some people in this thread have shown that they are NOT open to meet halfway or even consider the other side.

Noaani

Marcet wrote: »

Ask Steven his reasons to not implement it, because he must have.

We've done that, and we have then proven beyond doubt why his reasoning is flawed.

Despite its flaw, we have also provided a template for a combat tracker that works without that reason, to no avail.

This simply means 3rd party trackers.

Chunks

Caeryl wrote: »

You've been routinely disrespectful in this thread, and dishonest on top of that.

Source? I've given to Nolaani as he's given to me, exclusively. Even then, Nolaani and I are still mostly cordial with our jabs - further yet, on a few small things, we've agreed we're on the same page.

There's a lot of rude lads here in this thread, advocating for both opinions. Compared to some interactions on here you'll catch me being mildly spicy at worst.

Caeryl wrote: »

instead of explaining how you came to such a conclusion, you just restated the same thing with no logic to it at all.

Chunks wrote: »

for example fear of trying something new at the expense of the numbers going down. Or failure to adapt a new strategy that may better suit them when not achieving their goals because they haven't explored outside the one route of play determined as the "best".

Elaborated upon with;

Chunks wrote: »

Correct. We can agree that, at the very least, early in the game's life that damage meters will have my previous post's positive effects. But it will be timed. Specifically when the optimal meta has been discovered/selected, people will be hesitant to spend time deviating from it. For reasons ranging from comfort zone, to concern with the social aspect of other players oggling their numbers and judging them a burden. Such as in the next quote, where a non-meta build is poor performance and getting carried. o:

Then here you used hyperbole which you then contradicted, after calling me dishonest, which seems selective in how you're perceiving the way we talk to each other. I could accuse that of being dishonest, but common sense would intervene like "???"

Caeryl wrote: »

That couldn't be further from the reality. Combat trackers will have that information, yes

I assume you genuinely believe I'm maliciously crafting wild, vague contexts that would have absolutely zero feasibility in practice to just push the anti-dps meter narrative. To which I ask - why would I do that? If these aren't legitimate concerns of mine, based on legitimate experiences, why would I oppose DPS meters otherwise? There's no reasoning for somebody to spend this much time discussing the topic without sincere interest and worries in it. There is no hidden agenda.

Caeryl wrote: »

and doesn't make clearing content a hassle for everyone else in the group. When one person's need to be different harms the experience of 10+ other people, that person needs to change their behavior, or they should expect that group to kick them out.

You've reworded this to be less threatening to the bottom performer but you still haven't answered what I meant to be my main reply as; "What is the standard?" What is the fine line, if there is one, for deciding they need to be kicked? If you have 10 people in a group and this guy's damage is less than everybody else but there's more context to it than that, like tanks constantly moving targets out of a CD AoE ability, how do you factor that in? Maybe another player keeps dragging harmful area effects to this player when they try to use a channeled ability, interrupting their cast and measurable productivity as they must move. Who sees it and sticks up for them? How do you prevent them from becoming the scapegoat?

I'm asking for a very clear standard, a SOP even, for determining when a player needs to be removed.

That situation won't happen every group. Of course not. But to me that doesn't make it acceptable. If you want people like-minded with me on your side of the fence, we need a reason to believe that this is mitigated. Some people are already proposing good compromises between the extremes of "have" and "don't have" meters. Compromises clearly aren't out of the question, but if you really want this in the game you need to make an effort to understand the opposing perspective.

Most of us understand why you want meters. We aren't I'm not saying what you seek won't happen if we have them. It feels like, in my reflection of my discussions, there's minimal reciprocation of that from the polar opposite. We're just being told "lol no now lay down".

Tragnar

@Chunks
Good to hear from you, because it is refreshing to read actual points being made other than pure hate on meters.

It is my honest opinion that meters should have restricted access. To people that don't know how to use them and what for it is just a piece of ui that labels their "worth".

As to your point of someone doing low dmg and being kicked for it - I have actually kicked the top dps in my group because those guys were only using AoE to be on top and no spoken/written word helped to avoid wiping.

It all comes down to if the person making decisions about the group is actually looking for more thorough information or any reason to make anyone a scapegoat just to save face in front of everybody.

Btw the "builds" that people want to create only by trial and error - well you guys are going to be on average bottom tier players with or without meters. In any game that is decided by numbers everyone that wants to get better is stripping the "feels good reasons" and is looking for facts on what is working and what is not.

Marcet

Tragnar wrote: »

Btw the "builds" that people want to create only by trial and error - well you guys are going to be on average bottom tier players with or without meters.

Let's see.

halbarz

Tragnar wrote: »

@Chunks

Btw the "builds" that people want to create only by trial and error - well you guys are going to be on average bottom tier players with or without meters. In any game that is decided by numbers everyone that wants to get better is stripping the "feels good reasons" and is looking for facts on what is working and what is not.

I disagree, never had to resort to a meter and figured out every build on my own. Yet in both PVP and PvE I have helped people many many times with their builds and completed all content without any issues.

You cannot generalize

It's like me saying that 90% of the people including those with a meter are too lazy to figure it out on their own or not capable of doing so because they lack knowledge, insight and etc.(which is of course not true)

Chunks

Tragnar wrote: »

@Chunks
It is my honest opinion that meters should have restricted access. To people that don't know how to use them and what for it is just a piece of ui that labels their "worth".

As to your point of someone doing low dmg and being kicked for it - I have actually kicked the top dps in my group because those guys were only using AoE to be on top and no spoken/written word helped to avoid wiping.

It all comes down to if the person making decisions about the group is actually looking for more thorough information or any reason to make anyone a scapegoat just to save face in front of everybody.

I don't disagree with these. And I see how restricting access would be coming from a place to stifle some of my concerns.
To me, it feels... inevitable, I guess, that meters will eventually be used in a harmful way. Like we can slow it down or redirect it for a while. I was contemplating how something like meters that included a lot of information outside of damage, excluding damage, may be an option. But I think that it would just shift the metric used to criticize, rather than negate it.

You're right; it comes down to people making choices. Maybe proper leadership filtering upwards over time will be what makes it. I could see it happening, but I'd rather have meters added after the fact than gambling on it early. But then how do we define we've reached that point as a community? These rabbit holes go too deep lol.

So far my personal favorite solution I've seen on here is having some "training dummies" with metrics available as you test. Maybe expanded on that, training dummies locked behind guild growth/achievements or even node progress - even as far as giving people a reason to travel to a militaristic node in particular.
But we would need more depth on these to ensure that people can track things besides just flat damage output as well; show some love to support, healing, and tank roles somehow.

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