Compounding effects

This topic has been on my mind for quite awhile. We know that the goal for gear is to have 40-50% power influence over our characters. This would suggest that the power influence of other customization like skill trees (that were showed in last dev discussion afaik) and augments have the remaining percentages (that is 50-60%) - if you want to know only my conclusion and not how i got there skip to the end after the quote

Some deduction and few numbers wrote:

In the recent dev discussion we can see that the presented character had 134 available skill points to allocate - it is a strong possibility that it was increased so the character was "maxed out" even though in reality we could have a third of those points or more likely the same as the amount of levels. Also we know that there are going to be quite a lot of augments available - and it seems that those are going to have more impact than 1 skill point

What I am curious about is how many of those customization options are going to temper with the power level and how many are going to be pure utilities.

We could for imagination sake say that we will have only 50 skill points available - 1 skill point could in theory represent 1% dmg increase (with 0.1% difference) and it could increase linearly with the amount of skill points allocated. Also we can see that at least for now there are 9 passive/active/weapon skills. Also it is not unreasonable to say that there will be multiple compounding interactions between those. Even if in the skill tree were only 3 compounding effects (like bleeds increase the dmg of backstab by x%, backstab deals x% more dmg, backstab costs x% less resources).

So considering the above we could have sweaty theorycrafter get together all skill points allocated into those that have 1.1% power allocated evenly between the 3 compounding effects with 17 points into 2 of those and last with 16 points. This will give him three linear power increases of 18.7%, 18.7% and 17.6% which compound on each other to give total 65.69% power increase.

However if you allocate unevenly and unknowingly allocate into the average ones - not the better outliers then you could have three linear power increases of 10%, 10%, 30% for a total 57.3% power increase.

If we consider gear stat allocation to be within similar margins and roughly same difference in power between the average "good" and the best in 57.3% and 65.69% then the actual power difference of all customization with gear is between 147.43% (the average "good") and 174.53% (best).

So let's say the basic rogue-rogue class has base output of 100 then the average person is going to scale up to 247.43dps and the optimized person 274.53dps. This is of course under the assumption that both have the same amount of available customatization and the same quality gear.

This is a definition of a near-perfect balance (0.1% difference between options).

So let's say the balance misses a bit and even though the average power of skill points is still 1%, but the outliers rise are in the range of 0.3-1.7%. then by going the same route above you retain the average "good" with 57.3% power increase, but the best outlier spikes to 28.9%, 28.9% and 27.2% for the 3 compounding effects. Which is in total 111.34% power increase. Also if gear optimatization lies within the same margin you retain the average 147.43% power increase for the average "good" builds, but the best spike to 346.66%.

This would mean that while the average guy does 247.43dps the best build rises up to 446.66dps and that is considering that both have the same quality of gear and the same customization options. Also I have completely neglected the existence of augments. Which can only deepen the difference more

CONCLUSION

What I am concerned about is that with the gigantic amount of customization and exclusive gear quality we could very well see a fully optimized character able to dish out the same numbers as a full 8man group if he has all the available augments, the top quality gear and all they have is the average dungeon drops.

Do you have any points that might expect easier balance? Personally I see only the balance being harder and harder to achieve with every customization option they have announced.

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Comments

arsnn

I also share your concern and your calculation ilustrates the issue well that the balancing team will have to encounter.
And you did not even touch the surface of the layers of costimization!
There is racial differences,social augments, religious augments, choice of which armor tier (heavy,medium,light), weapon choices with spells, power scaling issues with levels, group dynamics and more.

The shere amount of layers is unprecedented.
Most games involving PvP and in depth PvE have like 3-4 layers whereas ashes will have around 10-12 from what i have counted.

I really like that from a theorycrafting and game depth´s perpective but i hope it won´t get out of hand in terms of balancing.

Tragnar

Also I hope that people will praise the balance team, because they have ungrateful jobs where people don't appreciate them if things are balanced and are outraged if they miss something broken.

Also here comes the goal that fights should be lasting 30seconds for the majority of playerbase then by consequence with such deep customization disparity you are eventually going to get to the point of oneshots by skilled players that are going to exploit the crit-headshot aiming system. And by oneshots I don't mean League of Legends oneshots that are done under 0.1s, but oneshots that happen inside a stun window (which in MMO that is 3-6seconds usually)

Lyiat

So level contributes 0% to player power in your model? I think you're a bit off, here.

Grievousness

Tragnar wrote: »

Also I hope that people will praise the balance team, because they have ungrateful jobs where people don't appreciate them if things are balanced and are outraged if they miss something broken.

I don't really get your point here.
Sure they do their job, but the balancing team is confronted with issues the company put on themselves.
While people surely appreciate getting features to play with, nobody is (or at least should be) asking for something absurdly complicated nobody can balance.

If people are mad about the game not being balanced they are (in most cases) rightfully so since the problems / features making balance impossible are introduced by the company itself.

I personally agree with the conclusion from your first post.
Also this is no "new" thing to happen in MMOS, look at World of Warcraft right now.
A guy named Rextroy does nothing else on his youtube channel than trying out stuff to show how broken the system in place is.
Including legit oneshots and much more.

The road that lead there was devs chasing an unreached level of individual customization to for example break up meta gaming.
Turns out it doesn't work and creates a ton of work, with next to no positive impact on meta gaming.
In fact overly complex systems will insentivies people to search for meta builds, since most people don't want to waste their free time on trying out all the possible options.

I personally think they should concentrate on some core features and drop most other stuff for release.
MMOS have the option of adding more down the line, you don't need everything fleshed out at release.
Also it is easier to get player feedback once people can actually play the game.

Lyiat wrote: »

So level contributes 0% to player power in your model? I think you're a bit off, here.

Why would level be a relevant contributing factor?
Everyone will reach max level eventually so it will be irrelevant for most of the playtime.

Tragnar

Lyiat wrote: »

So level contributes 0% to player power in your model? I think you're a bit off, here.

Where did I propose that level contributes 0% to player power? My entire point is that they have put on themselves a big burden with a ton of customization that is extremely tough to balance and so far there have been no system that could make balance easier - at least to my knowledge

Please quote me where did you got even the notion that I might have an opinion that they should remove customization. I literally don't understand from what you could conjure up that I might think that

Strafexzg

100% Agree and I'm looking forward to when we can play the game to actually figure out how some of these components will impact the game. Ideally, I hope anyways, weapon, Armor, Spells and their associated item or augment are a separate category of Combat Augment. Where social, religion, race are more based around Non-Combat or Utility augments (Mining, luck, gathering etc). This will slightly reduce the amount of variables.

Now in terms of skill point/gear optimization. Could soft caps at all factor into these calculations? I'm not a math guy but I'm curious to see if we could use skill points to reach a certain crit cap and then stack heavy attack power gear. Making it so that the general stats won't vary that much.

Tragnar

It will all depend on the "deep" customization that Steven was talking about. Many games just lock resource costs, cast times, crit multiplier, overall multiplier behind static "cap" values and just automatically count on everybody being at those caps and the scaling lies with bonus damage and crit chance.

We will have to see in the alpha - I personally can't wait to see those skill trees

FuryBladeborne

Alpha is not for balancing. Its for getting systems running with the population that has been targeted for Alpha.

Tragnar

You misunderstand, this is not about worrying about balance tweaks but the whole balance system - which is a core system. If everything in the game will point towards gigantic imbalances then it is a core issue - not a balance tweak

FuryBladeborne

Balancing generally requires simply changing some numbers. The power of an ability can generally be completely altered from doing no damage to any amount desired at any speed desired in a matter of minutes.

Getting the game running without server crashes with the given number of players, or making sure npc's spawn, making sure quest text appears and so on are the kind of things that Alphas are for.

I am pretty sure balancing is a focus around Betas.

"BTW, Balancing in Ashes of Creation is "group focused".[266]

There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[266] – Steven Sharif"

If your going in looking to see if your class feels strong or weak against a certain class, you may be disapointed if that class is a counter to your class or build. Or if you are are counter to them. Also, the intent is for you to be able to so fully alter your build as to counter your normal class hard counter.

Given all of this, I cannot see how you can expect to determine balance either quickly or project years into the future when active balancing hasn't even started.

Further info on the intended class balance. The last 2 posts at the bottom of the page are in depth on this.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42174/you-got-questions-we-got-answers/p2

Tragnar

To think that Balancing is only about changing some numbers - that is being done after the balance systems and rules are in place.

You simply just cannot balance tweak an archetype that has 6 scaling skills that compound on each other and another archetype that has only 2. In such a case you need to redesign whole kits and let me tell you - Ashes has a gigantic amount of customization to make this whole ordeal a nightmare.

Also I would be deeply disappointed if we won't see class customization in the alpha - gone are the days where alphas were only for testing if the game can run.

Tragnar

What I meant to say with my last post is this:

I believe that all alpha/beta versions won't be enough to get even close to some balance - and that is why I want to see the customization and whole archetypes as soon as possible

FuryBladeborne

Tragnar wrote: »

To think that Balancing is only about changing some numbers - that is being done after the balance systems and rules are in place.

The point is that balance is not locked. Everything is easily altered to anything that is chosen. So, it would make sense to wait to see what balance is like when they are actually at the phase for balance.

Tragnar wrote: »

You simply just cannot balance tweak an archetype that has 6 scaling skills that compound on each other and another archetype that has only 2.

I am not sure where you came up with this in relation to ashes. All skills have 2 additional tiers and the maximum number of skills active on your action bar will be about 30.
"The number of skills on the action bar will be contained (fewer than 30).[12]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills
If you are max level with max skills available and creating a build, you start with points for less than 30 skills and spend them on either increasing the total skills available or going in depth on specific skills. It appears that at max level, all classes have the same number of possible skills and depth to skills available.

Tragnar wrote: »

Also I would be deeply disappointed if we won't see class customization in the alpha - gone are the days where alphas were only for testing if the game can run.

Ashes is being made from scratch. We are seeing the original Alpha. Many games that have been shown as Alphas in recent years are actually completed games that have been released in other regions and are going through a localization process that is being called an Alpha. This is not equivalent to the Alpha phase that Ashes is in.

Tragnar

I am not saying that these things should not have precedence for the early stages, but that we should get a good look on how the classes are currently envisioned as well. If we can get a good look at them we can give feedback on where the power bundle is going literally into godlike overdrive especially with the open ended view on customization that includes ton of augments from any sources (races, religions, societies etc) a wide variety of skill points allocation setup of any wide/deep type.

When we take for example WoW when it released - it took them literally 5-6 years before they got around some sense of balance (after they nerfed DK into the ground).

Skill and augment systems are a giant tuning nobs that are going to modify more archetypes at once (since every archetype can take something from any other archetype). So you can get literally to a point where you tune something godlike down only to allow something else become godlike and you get into a neverending cycle, because nothing is helping you to tune better.

Also where is the balance point going to be set at? I would think around max lvl character with all/most augments unlocked right? If so then are then the archetypes going to have linear progression (which is desirable by all players, because you see steady progression forward) or a slow progression with power explosion at the end stop? Are the archetypes going to be balanced around low lvl play and thus reducing the freedom to balance at the end?

I play a lot of League of Legends and the balance in that game has more freedom that Ashes can ever hope for, just because in that game power progression through leveling matters above all else.

The big downfall of balance is that if something is to counter something else it needs to be able to have the power level in similar heights otherwise the "counter" becomes useless

FuryBladeborne

Since the balance topic is godlike op, and all classes are meant to hard counter at least one class it would seem like a godlike op class would be the most op against the class that is hard countered. Also, given that the hard countered class is supposed to be able to alter gear and build to the point of becoming at least a counter (possibly a hard counter) to the previous hard counter; it seems that no class can actually be godlike op because that build is specifically countered the class that it previously hard countered.

If your not following me, check the info that I linked earlier from the last 2 posts on the 2nd page:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42174/you-got-questions-we-got-answers/p2

The question that I see is whether they can actually pull off this wide range of effective choices that allow such versatility. However, none of this will be in Alpha. Were only getting a few of the archetypes; and, if I remember correctly the relevant classes will not be available. This means that access to skills will be limited since you don't even have classes and much of the skill progression is horizontal and results from classes, religions, and other groups that I don't remember at the moment. It seems like it would be difficult to evaluate balance when you can't even access a large portion of the skills.

Tragnar wrote: »

Also where is the balance point going to be set at? I would think around max lvl character with all/most augments unlocked right? If so then are then the archetypes going to have linear progression (which is desirable by all players, because you see steady progression forward) or a slow progression with power explosion at the end stop? Are the archetypes going to be balanced around low lvl play and thus reducing the freedom to balance at the end?

I don't know that it has been stated, but I hope they start balancing at max level and then work their way down as best as possible. There will always be problems with balance and if those problems start while balancing for low level then they tend to compound into much larger problems as levels increase.

Tragnar

I read your posts in there, but you are viewing the world only through PvP lenses - how about farm content - dungeon content and whole PvE.

I am not asking to have there for any of the 64 archetype combinations, but a few of them with the ability to customize fully at least one so we can grasp on how much power they want to put into each system.

It is completely reasonable to have this quite early. Why? because it is actually more important than resolving a movement bug or a bug that causes you to disconnect or a bug that stucks you in a place unable to move.

Balrog21

Of course there will be unbalance...I just hope they address the issue quickly instead of letting it go for weeks at a time..*cough cough..Rift..cough*

Tragnar

I personally hate that lazy system "when players find out it is broken on live we fix it after some weeks/months"

All archetypes should have clear power allocations inside various systems in order to make them work and then you can number tweak.

I would hate for Ashes to launch or be delayed by broken archetype balance. That is why I want to start providing feedback about classes as soon as they let us.

And let me tell you rarely imbalances are about tweaking a few numbers

Irohnic

Tragnar wrote: »

I personally hate that lazy system "when players find out it is broken on live we fix it after some weeks/months"

All archetypes should have clear power allocations inside various systems in order to make them work and then you can number tweak.

I would hate for Ashes to launch or be delayed by broken archetype balance. That is why I want to start providing feedback about classes as soon as they let us.

And let me tell you rarely imbalances are about tweaking a few numbers

I'm not sure why you're assuming AoC is using the "lazy system". Given the care that they have shown to make sure they deliver a great product, of course they are considering damage scaling and synergies in their skill/class/augment designs to avoid this kind of unbalance. They're just keeping it in-studio for now. Will it require more balancing during Betas? aboslutely, that's part of making a game, you can't perfect everything on the first attempt. Augments have been stated to be predominately horizontal type progressions, not vertical, so even though, yes, there are a lot of variables at play with the insane amount of augments and skill customization, I expect the number of augments that are actually scalable, in the sense of fitting into a power multiplcation scheme like you've pointed out, is much smaller, and therefore easier to balance.

What interests me more is group synergies/scalability. Steven has already mentioned augments synergizing with groupmates (fighter providing a fire debuff that increases the mage's damage). Since balance is based around group content, not solo, I really hope that focusing on group synergizing augments can give you a little extra edge over an equally geared/skilled group that just try to optimize their individual characters.

Tragnar

With the "lazy system" I was replying to:

Balrog21 wrote: »

Of course there will be unbalance...I just hope they address the issue quickly instead of letting it go for weeks at a time..*cough cough..Rift..cough*

And I really like that they aim to have a horizontal system for the customization - however I am truly wondering what tradeoffs they are going to introduce for it to work, because the most realistic result I see is a landscape with mountains as high as everest and very deep canyons.

Also the aim to be horizontal/vertical customization doesn't truly matter for the synergy escalation, because in every vertical system you aim to have all mountains roughly the same and in every horizontal system to avoid mountains and canyons altogether.

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