Which loot system do you prefer for group content?

Alpha 1 is right around the corner so i would like to discuss one of the most game defining systems in a MMORPG - the loot system. For people new to the genre here is a small explanation of all possible looting rules that i know. I will add some pros and cons to each system if i have some time or if someone has good arguments for/against each system.

Master Loot: The party/raid lead is in charge of all loot and can decide which items go to whom.

Pros:
No random distribution
Enables discussion
Cons:
Exploitable if wrong person is the leader
Personal favors play a big roll

Dice Roll: This is often coupled with the Master Loot system: Each person who wants to have a specific item rolls a dice from 1 to 100. The highest roll wins the item.

Pros:
No tension between party members
Cons:
Not everyone should roll at every item (greed/need)
If unlucky, you dont get any items for a long time

Highest Bid: Each dropped item has its own auction between all party members. The item goes to the person who bids the most gold on it, the gold is automatically distributed to all other party members.

Pros:
Greedy people need a lot of money
If a rare item drops, everyone gets gold
Itemvalue is relevant
Cons:
The rich get most items
People who dont need the item might bid so you have to pay more

Free Loot: The items is not protected by any system and can be looted by every party member.

Pros:
Builds a lot of trust if done correctly
Cons:
Possibel to create a lot of tension between party members
Ninja looter

Personal Loot: Items will be automatically distributed to every party member, without any social interaction.

Pros:
No tension between party members
Cons:
No social interaction between party members
Luck plays a big role

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Comments

daveywavey

Warth wrote: »

What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.

Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.

Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.

I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.

I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!

bloodprophet

daveywavey wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

OnlyOne wrote: »

Personally, I would like to see the Master Loot system implemented.

But, why should another player get the power to decide what drops I get in the same dungeon? I'd never use it myself, cos I'd end up with nothing...!

The solution is not to group with people that use master loot. There will always be more than just one type of loot rules, so play with people using the rules you prefer.

Well yeah, I get that. But, I'm just wondering what makes some people think that they deserve to decide what drops other players get. Just seems a little.... arrogant?

I played years of Guild Wars and ESO, and never once felt the need to tell someone what drops they were allowed to have.

In all the raid guilds I have been in master loot works fine.
The master looter (usually raid leader) has people roll for the piece and hads it out. It keeps people honest and prevents ninja loot crap. Plus on the up side of that helps to keep track of the stuff so you can pass it out evenly based on what people need based on what is best for the whole team.

bloodprophet

daveywavey wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.

Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.

Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.

I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.

I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!

This is a very narrow self centered view. A rising tide lifts all ships. If it helps me a little but you a little more it makes more sense to let you have it to make the group better. By you being able to do your part better the group as a whole is better.

This is a very large part of why I hate GW2 so much. Personal loot and the complete lack of group play. Nobody is dependent on anyone else. MMO's should be a team sport not one player does everything all the time mage/tank Superman style(except for the little green rocks).

Fortunately almost all gear will be crafted so most of what will be handled by this system will be crafting materials. That makes it easier still.

Noaani

I've honestly never run content that has potential loot drops that I would be interested in while in a pick up group.

To me,if there is loot I want, it is guild or friends. If I am out to meet new people, it is content that has no real worth to me.

As such, I see master looter as essential, and don't much care about other methods - the game obviously needs to ha eothermethods, I just don't much care what they are.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

I've honestly never run content that has potential loot drops that I would be interested in while in a pick up group.

To me,if there is loot I want, it is guild or friends. If I am out to meet new people, it is content that has no real worth to me.

As such, I see master looter as essential, and don't much care about other methods - the game obviously needs to ha eothermethods, I just don't much care what they are.

It's all gonna be money, and it all adds up man. I am gonna be Scrooge McDuck.

daveywavey

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

Vhaeyne

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

Round Robin Brah.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

Warth

daveywavey wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.

Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.

Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.

I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.

I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!

There is a system why 98+% of the competitive Raiding community. I can see that you have never participated in such an environment, so the thought process might be somewhat alien to you. When WoW got rid of master loot in favor of personal loot, these guilds and communities even required an Add-On, that shows all the tradable personal loot every single member gets. These members were required to hand them over to the loot council, so it can be redistributed to the raid members utilizing them best. The members, where the Delta between the old piece of gear and the new piece of gear is the highest. People failing to accept that won't even make it into these groups, as that kind of group thinking is a baseline requirement.
Just a quick example:

Player A drops a Staff, that would increase his DPS by 5%.
Player B would get a 12% DPS increase through that staff instead.
-> Loot Council decides, that the Staff should go to Player B first, as that's what's best for the team

Its not about controlling the others. Its about determining what's best for the group as a whole. Which is the a baseline necessity to be competitive in the long run.

Applied to an Ashes example:

You and your raid drop a unique legendary scepter, which might be the only copy of it on the entire server, outright the BIS Item for every healer on the entire server and worth a literal swimming pool full of gold. Considering everybody has equally participated in killing the boss, everybody should have the same chance of obtaining this Top-Tier Item? That might be fair, but it is also crippling your progression as a raid/team/guild.

If you had the choice of giving it to:

Player A (Rogue):

Who'd like to sell it to other player in order to build up his own gear.

Player B (Cleric):

who participates in every single world boss raid
who participates in every single castle siege and guild war
who oftentimes helps out his fellow guild members with caravans or situations of need
has been with the guild for 5 years, known to be loyal to and well respected by his fellow guild mates

Player C (Cleric):

who might make barely 1/3 of all the world boss raids
half the castle sieges and some of the guild wars
has been with the guild for 3 weeks

Out of pure "fairness", everybody should have equal chances of rolling on it as everybody contributed to the kill.That's crippling to the progress of the guild as a whole though. For any competitive environment, the only choice is to give it to Player B, as that's what's best for the collective. Everybody that can't accept that won't even find a space in these environments, as willing to accept that collective group thinking is one of the baseline requirements to join these communities.

Master Loot helps enforcing exactly that. That's why everybody in a competitive environment likes that tool. To them, it's as necessary as other loot options are for you because otherwise, this game would just devolve into ninja looting galore.

bloodprophet

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Noaani

bloodprophet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Indeed.

This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.

It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.

Caeryl

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Indeed.

This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.

It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

Vhaeyne

Caeryl wrote: »

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

Y'all ain't spent 30+ hours a week proging a single boss just to see the loot go to the worst player?

Hellfar

I am in favor of the Master Loot and DKP systems. TBH I think all these systems, with the exception of Personal Loot, should be available as options in the game. Personal Loot has it's place in LFR/LFD content where you don't know anybody, but since Ashes is not going to have these two awful systems implemented, there is absolutely no need for Personal Loot.

Reasoning: I am in favor of a hand-to-hand exchange of loot. Dice rolls are fine in this case, because you are competing with another member of your party who may deserve that gear as much as you do. I prefer Master Loot and the DKP system the most because the Raid Leader (or Loot Council) has the power to look at player participation over a period of time based on accrued points each player has collected, and give that piece of gear to the rightful player who deserves it the most (thus, that player spends a good amount of points and will need to accrue more). I personally think DKP is the best system based off past experience.

If the only reason you despise Master Loot is due to bad experiences with ninja leaders / inner-circle bias, then you are not grouping with the right people. You need to know who you are playing the game with in order to trust them. How about join a guild that treats everyone equally? It's on you to find the right people.

Personal Loot is a machine. There's nothing 'MMORPG' about it. You may as well be playing Call of Duty solo and opening loot boxes. I agree with the guy that called WoW a Co-Op RPG, as they have practically abolished every hand-to-hand exchange of loot (and community) from the game (aside from trading, but who cares?).

Lastly, to anyone who strongly favors Personal Loot, ask yourself these questions:

Am I in this for myself or do I want what's best for my team as a whole?
Are MMORPGs the right games for me after all?
Are there any opportunities for community service in my area where I can learn to think of others?

Warth

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

Y'all ain't spent 30+ hours a week proging a single boss just to see the loot go to the worst player?

@Vhaeyne
I think they don't understand, that personal loot isn't gonna increase the amount of loot that drops overall.

Whether its just personal loot or master loot, you'll still just drop let's say 9 items from the 3 bosses.
The difference is, that with master loot the guild/raidgroup can decide together who will receive those items. Personal loot, you also have that option (as long as the items are tradeable, but you can't enforce a raid-wide ruleset regarding distribution, as every member has the chance to simply pocket the item that was found in "his" lootbag.

Sathrago

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Indeed.

This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.

It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

Then use the bidding system. No one loses out with it.

bloodprophet

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Indeed.

This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.

It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

So everyone needs a trophy?
MMORPG's are supposed to be a team sport not a solo experience for that I can go play 2077 or some other solo game.

Hellfar is right with his questions.

Caeryl

bloodprophet wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Indeed.

This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.

It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

So everyone needs a trophy?
MMORPG's are supposed to be a team sport not a solo experience for that I can go play 2077 or some other solo game.

Hellfar is right with his questions.

Yes, everyone who puts the time in, deserve something of use, whether that be gold, materials, or, however unlikely, a piece of gear. “Participation trophy” implies people who lost get rewarded, but a group that successfully clears a raid did not lose. They were successful as a group, they should all be rewarded for their success. Are the medals given out to the players of a winning team participation trophies? No, obviously not. The very same logic applies here.

bloodprophet

Agree to a point.
The group got rewarded for their success. That makes it easier for the group to complete the content again or even harder content. I have been passed over for loot and didn't care as the group got better. Gold is a side reward as it usually is low but could be more here. Getting materials is what we will most likely see here based on what they have said so far.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables

Using WoW again the loot is so common now that most people get stuff every fight and that then makes the content even less relevant faster. This is part of why they see so many spikes up and down in player count. Every one logs in and get the new gear first 2-3 times through and logs out till next raid comes out.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?

I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.

In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.

Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.

The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.

In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.

What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.

WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.

Indeed.

This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.

It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.

When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.

The thing with raiding is - you are not progressing yourself, you are progressing your guild.

A raid that is being successful on content that is appropriate to their point in progression should obtain several items an hour, on average 2 - 3.

Any one of those items that goes to a member of the raid and makes them better is a reward for every player in the raid - as that player being better means the raid is better.

It is the fact that some people look at rewards from raids as being for the individual rather than for the raid that is the issue.

Child Item