Seeing a lot of people in this thread in favor of random personal loot. Luckily Intrepid currently does not have it listed as a possible looting option. You can clearly see that have a bias against this looting option. This is a open letter to anyone in support of Random Personal Loot.
I have to use WOW as an example here because I honestly can't think of another MMO with this system in place. It is very common in WOW with random personal loot that you will end up getting loot that is not useful for you. The loot drops, and it will be on spec with bad stats or just a flat downgrade in every way. Another player in the party could desperately need that piece of gear, but its yours. You are free to disenchant/vendor it at your leisure. The best case is that the looter will ask the other party members to roll need for it. In which case we are back to a normal need/greed loot system, but only because another player is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. The looter is only losing the vendor/disenchant cost. Unless they want it for transmog, which is another ridiculous side possibility. What is important here is that in WOW you have to have killed that boss in the party at the time of the drop to be eligible to receive that loot through trade. In AOC basically everything is a BoE, you can throw nearly anything on the market because bound items are the exception not the rule. NOBODY is going to just give gear away in AOC. TBH the need/greed system doesn't actually make any sense in AOC, because everyone is going to be rolling need on everything all the time unless they are guided or have some other relationship going on.
What is crazy about WOWs personal loot system is that it picks a random player per drop and gives them a random class/spec appropriate piece of gear. In the context of AOC that would be just silly. Anyone can use any weapon and any armor in AOC. So the whole per spec thing goes out the window. WOW also drops way more gear that AOC is said to, and its completed gear. In AOC there is a much higher chance of recipes and materials dropping than completed items. So basically, If AOC was to have personal loot, you would be getting hit with the full loot table. This is basically the same as everyone rolling need all the time anyway. The game is just doing it for you at all times. Most people are not going to want to use this system because their is a chance of one person getting a lot more loot for the same amount of effort with there lucky NEED rolls going off all the time on everything that drops.
My speculation for how AOC looting will be:
Round Robin will be for sure the preferred system of pick up groups in AOC. Free for all will be useful for farming statics and guilds. Master looter will be useful for raids. The bidding system is a amazing idea, but it is only potentially going to be in the game.
If you don't like anything I said, that is fine. I would like for you to at least read the Wiki pages above, and think about them critically. You could argue that personal loot works in WOW. I would disagree, but your argument would make some sense in the context of WOW. AOC is going to be a way more economy based game than WOW, and missing out on any drops is going to be a big deal. Serious players would never use random personal loot as an option. If it was mandatory, serious players would be less likely to even play the game.
Personally, I would like to see the Master Loot system implemented.
But, why should another player get the power to decide what drops I get in the same dungeon? I'd never use it myself, cos I'd end up with nothing...!
The solution is not to group with people that use master loot. There will always be more than just one type of loot rules, so play with people using the rules you prefer.
Personally, I would like to see the Master Loot system implemented.
But, why should another player get the power to decide what drops I get in the same dungeon? I'd never use it myself, cos I'd end up with nothing...!
The solution is not to group with people that use master loot. There will always be more than just one type of loot rules, so play with people using the rules you prefer.
Well yeah, I get that. But, I'm just wondering what makes some people think that they deserve to decide what drops other players get. Just seems a little.... arrogant?
I played years of Guild Wars and ESO, and never once felt the need to tell someone what drops they were allowed to have.
Personally, I would like to see the Master Loot system implemented.
But, why should another player get the power to decide what drops I get in the same dungeon? I'd never use it myself, cos I'd end up with nothing...!
I should have specified. When I refer to the Master Loot system I was hoping to see it implemented in guild raids/events. That way you at least know who you're going in with (your guildmates) and not some strangers. I do see your point, so maybe Ashes could implement more than one loot system. A Master Loot system for guild raids/events and a Personal Random for everything else.
Personally, I would like to see the Master Loot system implemented.
But, why should another player get the power to decide what drops I get in the same dungeon? I'd never use it myself, cos I'd end up with nothing...!
The solution is not to group with people that use master loot. There will always be more than just one type of loot rules, so play with people using the rules you prefer.
Well yeah, I get that. But, I'm just wondering what makes some people think that they deserve to decide what drops other players get. Just seems a little.... arrogant?
I played years of Guild Wars and ESO, and never once felt the need to tell someone what drops they were allowed to have.
What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.
Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.
Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.
Loot rules depend on the situation - who am I grouping with, how many of us, what sort of content are we doing, etc. The answer will change depending on a variety of factors so as long as all of the options are available and we can just change the loot settings in a group at any time like most MMOs, that works for me.
Im personally a fan of personal loot but these other options give ideas.
Why not do a combination of a few.
Personal loot, but give people the option to either Need/Greed it, or put it up for auction.
???
Personal loot also exists in ESO, with gear freely tradable between group mates for an hour after acquisition. It’s typical for people to swap gear depending on needs. Some people pay for someone else to give them gear that dropped. Others are content giving gear away for free. It’s a highly competitive gear grind scene, but people generally have an unfavorable view on entitled players who demand certain gear. (Granted, this has recently changed with the sticker book addition reducing the need to grind gear, so more people are asking for ‘bad’ gear from certain sets to reduce the cost of creating the useful gear)
I’ve used Need/Greed and FFXIV and it never felt rewarding. Even Needing felt like a gamble.
Of all the non-personal loot options, only Highest Bid really feels like it gives everyone in the raid something for their time. I’d never join a group using Master Loot, or Free For All simply because both have little to no safeguards. Round Robin isn’t amazing but I wouldn’t avoid a group because of it.
I’m of the opinion no player should ever leave a successful raid without either new gear, more materials, or more gold. If I’m spending gold on potions, on food, on enchants, then I had better get some form of return from the game itself. DKP is not a substitute.
Personal loot also exists in ESO, with gear freely tradable between group mates for an hour after acquisition.
Yeah, and it was even better before they made all the dropped gear Bound. If someone needed something that you got, you could hand it over, even if it was a guildie asking in chat three weeks later. The idea of "personal loot" being unsociable is ridiculous.
What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.
Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.
Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.
I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.
I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!
Personally, I would like to see the Master Loot system implemented.
But, why should another player get the power to decide what drops I get in the same dungeon? I'd never use it myself, cos I'd end up with nothing...!
The solution is not to group with people that use master loot. There will always be more than just one type of loot rules, so play with people using the rules you prefer.
Well yeah, I get that. But, I'm just wondering what makes some people think that they deserve to decide what drops other players get. Just seems a little.... arrogant?
I played years of Guild Wars and ESO, and never once felt the need to tell someone what drops they were allowed to have.
In all the raid guilds I have been in master loot works fine.
The master looter (usually raid leader) has people roll for the piece and hads it out. It keeps people honest and prevents ninja loot crap. Plus on the up side of that helps to keep track of the stuff so you can pass it out evenly based on what people need based on what is best for the whole team.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
0
Options
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.
Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.
Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.
I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.
I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!
This is a very narrow self centered view. A rising tide lifts all ships. If it helps me a little but you a little more it makes more sense to let you have it to make the group better. By you being able to do your part better the group as a whole is better.
This is a very large part of why I hate GW2 so much. Personal loot and the complete lack of group play. Nobody is dependent on anyone else. MMO's should be a team sport not one player does everything all the time mage/tank Superman style(except for the little green rocks).
Fortunately almost all gear will be crafted so most of what will be handled by this system will be crafting materials. That makes it easier still.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I've honestly never run content that has potential loot drops that I would be interested in while in a pick up group.
To me,if there is loot I want, it is guild or friends. If I am out to meet new people, it is content that has no real worth to me.
As such, I see master looter as essential, and don't much care about other methods - the game obviously needs to ha eothermethods, I just don't much care what they are.
I've honestly never run content that has potential loot drops that I would be interested in while in a pick up group.
To me,if there is loot I want, it is guild or friends. If I am out to meet new people, it is content that has no real worth to me.
As such, I see master looter as essential, and don't much care about other methods - the game obviously needs to ha eothermethods, I just don't much care what they are.
It's all gonna be money, and it all adds up man. I am gonna be Scrooge McDuck.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.
Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.
Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.
I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.
I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!
There is a system why 98+% of the competitive Raiding community. I can see that you have never participated in such an environment, so the thought process might be somewhat alien to you. When WoW got rid of master loot in favor of personal loot, these guilds and communities even required an Add-On, that shows all the tradable personal loot every single member gets. These members were required to hand them over to the loot council, so it can be redistributed to the raid members utilizing them best. The members, where the Delta between the old piece of gear and the new piece of gear is the highest. People failing to accept that won't even make it into these groups, as that kind of group thinking is a baseline requirement.
Just a quick example:
Player A drops a Staff, that would increase his DPS by 5%.
Player B would get a 12% DPS increase through that staff instead.
-> Loot Council decides, that the Staff should go to Player B first, as that's what's best for the team
Its not about controlling the others. Its about determining what's best for the group as a whole. Which is the a baseline necessity to be competitive in the long run.
Applied to an Ashes example:
You and your raid drop a unique legendary scepter, which might be the only copy of it on the entire server, outright the BIS Item for every healer on the entire server and worth a literal swimming pool full of gold. Considering everybody has equally participated in killing the boss, everybody should have the same chance of obtaining this Top-Tier Item? That might be fair, but it is also crippling your progression as a raid/team/guild.
If you had the choice of giving it to:
Player A (Rogue):
Who'd like to sell it to other player in order to build up his own gear.
Player B (Cleric):
who participates in every single world boss raid
who participates in every single castle siege and guild war
who oftentimes helps out his fellow guild members with caravans or situations of need
has been with the guild for 5 years, known to be loyal to and well respected by his fellow guild mates
Player C (Cleric):
who might make barely 1/3 of all the world boss raids
half the castle sieges and some of the guild wars
has been with the guild for 3 weeks
Out of pure "fairness", everybody should have equal chances of rolling on it as everybody contributed to the kill.That's crippling to the progress of the guild as a whole though. For any competitive environment, the only choice is to give it to Player B, as that's what's best for the collective. Everybody that can't accept that won't even find a space in these environments, as willing to accept that collective group thinking is one of the baseline requirements to join these communities.
Master Loot helps enforcing exactly that. That's why everybody in a competitive environment likes that tool. To them, it's as necessary as other loot options are for you because otherwise, this game would just devolve into ninja looting galore.
3
Options
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
Y'all ain't spent 30+ hours a week proging a single boss just to see the loot go to the worst player?
I am in favor of the Master Loot and DKP systems. TBH I think all these systems, with the exception of Personal Loot, should be available as options in the game. Personal Loot has it's place in LFR/LFD content where you don't know anybody, but since Ashes is not going to have these two awful systems implemented, there is absolutely no need for Personal Loot.
Reasoning: I am in favor of a hand-to-hand exchange of loot. Dice rolls are fine in this case, because you are competing with another member of your party who may deserve that gear as much as you do. I prefer Master Loot and the DKP system the most because the Raid Leader (or Loot Council) has the power to look at player participation over a period of time based on accrued points each player has collected, and give that piece of gear to the rightful player who deserves it the most (thus, that player spends a good amount of points and will need to accrue more). I personally think DKP is the best system based off past experience.
If the only reason you despise Master Loot is due to bad experiences with ninja leaders / inner-circle bias, then you are not grouping with the right people. You need to know who you are playing the game with in order to trust them. How about join a guild that treats everyone equally? It's on you to find the right people.
Personal Loot is a machine. There's nothing 'MMORPG' about it. You may as well be playing Call of Duty solo and opening loot boxes. I agree with the guy that called WoW a Co-Op RPG, as they have practically abolished every hand-to-hand exchange of loot (and community) from the game (aside from trading, but who cares?).
Lastly, to anyone who strongly favors Personal Loot, ask yourself these questions:
Am I in this for myself or do I want what's best for my team as a whole?
Are MMORPGs the right games for me after all?
Are there any opportunities for community service in my area where I can learn to think of others?
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
Y'all ain't spent 30+ hours a week proging a single boss just to see the loot go to the worst player?
@Vhaeyne
I think they don't understand, that personal loot isn't gonna increase the amount of loot that drops overall.
Whether its just personal loot or master loot, you'll still just drop let's say 9 items from the 3 bosses.
The difference is, that with master loot the guild/raidgroup can decide together who will receive those items. Personal loot, you also have that option (as long as the items are tradeable, but you can't enforce a raid-wide ruleset regarding distribution, as every member has the chance to simply pocket the item that was found in "his" lootbag.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
Then use the bidding system. No one loses out with it.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
So everyone needs a trophy?
MMORPG's are supposed to be a team sport not a solo experience for that I can go play 2077 or some other solo game.
Hellfar is right with his questions.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
So everyone needs a trophy?
MMORPG's are supposed to be a team sport not a solo experience for that I can go play 2077 or some other solo game.
Hellfar is right with his questions.
Yes, everyone who puts the time in, deserve something of use, whether that be gold, materials, or, however unlikely, a piece of gear. “Participation trophy” implies people who lost get rewarded, but a group that successfully clears a raid did not lose. They were successful as a group, they should all be rewarded for their success. Are the medals given out to the players of a winning team participation trophies? No, obviously not. The very same logic applies here.
0
Options
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Agree to a point.
The group got rewarded for their success. That makes it easier for the group to complete the content again or even harder content. I have been passed over for loot and didn't care as the group got better. Gold is a side reward as it usually is low but could be more here. Getting materials is what we will most likely see here based on what they have said so far.
Using WoW again the loot is so common now that most people get stuff every fight and that then makes the content even less relevant faster. This is part of why they see so many spikes up and down in player count. Every one logs in and get the new gear first 2-3 times through and logs out till next raid comes out.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
But, what makes someone think that they're more important than the other players they're playing with and that they get to decide the loot those players get?
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
The thing with raiding is - you are not progressing yourself, you are progressing your guild.
A raid that is being successful on content that is appropriate to their point in progression should obtain several items an hour, on average 2 - 3.
Any one of those items that goes to a member of the raid and makes them better is a reward for every player in the raid - as that player being better means the raid is better.
It is the fact that some people look at rewards from raids as being for the individual rather than for the raid that is the issue.
Comments
I have to use WOW as an example here because I honestly can't think of another MMO with this system in place. It is very common in WOW with random personal loot that you will end up getting loot that is not useful for you. The loot drops, and it will be on spec with bad stats or just a flat downgrade in every way. Another player in the party could desperately need that piece of gear, but its yours. You are free to disenchant/vendor it at your leisure. The best case is that the looter will ask the other party members to roll need for it. In which case we are back to a normal need/greed loot system, but only because another player is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. The looter is only losing the vendor/disenchant cost. Unless they want it for transmog, which is another ridiculous side possibility. What is important here is that in WOW you have to have killed that boss in the party at the time of the drop to be eligible to receive that loot through trade. In AOC basically everything is a BoE, you can throw nearly anything on the market because bound items are the exception not the rule. NOBODY is going to just give gear away in AOC. TBH the need/greed system doesn't actually make any sense in AOC, because everyone is going to be rolling need on everything all the time unless they are guided or have some other relationship going on.
What is crazy about WOWs personal loot system is that it picks a random player per drop and gives them a random class/spec appropriate piece of gear. In the context of AOC that would be just silly. Anyone can use any weapon and any armor in AOC. So the whole per spec thing goes out the window. WOW also drops way more gear that AOC is said to, and its completed gear. In AOC there is a much higher chance of recipes and materials dropping than completed items. So basically, If AOC was to have personal loot, you would be getting hit with the full loot table. This is basically the same as everyone rolling need all the time anyway. The game is just doing it for you at all times. Most people are not going to want to use this system because their is a chance of one person getting a lot more loot for the same amount of effort with there lucky NEED rolls going off all the time on everything that drops.
My speculation for how AOC looting will be:
Round Robin will be for sure the preferred system of pick up groups in AOC. Free for all will be useful for farming statics and guilds. Master looter will be useful for raids. The bidding system is a amazing idea, but it is only potentially going to be in the game.
There is plenty of evidence to back up all of my AOC specific points on these pages:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear_binding
If you don't like anything I said, that is fine. I would like for you to at least read the Wiki pages above, and think about them critically. You could argue that personal loot works in WOW. I would disagree, but your argument would make some sense in the context of WOW. AOC is going to be a way more economy based game than WOW, and missing out on any drops is going to be a big deal. Serious players would never use random personal loot as an option. If it was mandatory, serious players would be less likely to even play the game.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
The solution is not to group with people that use master loot. There will always be more than just one type of loot rules, so play with people using the rules you prefer.
@daveywavey
you get multiple ones to choose from.
FFA
N/G
Master
Round Robin and
Bidding
Master loot is just one option the group leader can choose from. Its a necessary one but mostly used in guild raids to prevent ninja looting.
Well yeah, I get that. But, I'm just wondering what makes some people think that they deserve to decide what drops other players get. Just seems a little.... arrogant?
I played years of Guild Wars and ESO, and never once felt the need to tell someone what drops they were allowed to have.
I should have specified. When I refer to the Master Loot system I was hoping to see it implemented in guild raids/events. That way you at least know who you're going in with (your guildmates) and not some strangers. I do see your point, so maybe Ashes could implement more than one loot system. A Master Loot system for guild raids/events and a Personal Random for everything else.
What do you mean? That's the standard in competitive raiding environments. Raid Lead/Loot Council decides which Member could utilize the item best within the group/raid. That's the people who get the item, to push the raid forward.
Like i said, it is mostly used in people that know each other. In pre-formed statics.
Master Loot is never really used in a group of pugs. Judging it by the argument of why you would run it in a pug is not very useful as it is not a system designed to be used within pugs in the first place.
Why not do a combination of a few.
Personal loot, but give people the option to either Need/Greed it, or put it up for auction.
???
I’ve used Need/Greed and FFXIV and it never felt rewarding. Even Needing felt like a gamble.
Of all the non-personal loot options, only Highest Bid really feels like it gives everyone in the raid something for their time. I’d never join a group using Master Loot, or Free For All simply because both have little to no safeguards. Round Robin isn’t amazing but I wouldn’t avoid a group because of it.
I’m of the opinion no player should ever leave a successful raid without either new gear, more materials, or more gold. If I’m spending gold on potions, on food, on enchants, then I had better get some form of return from the game itself. DKP is not a substitute.
Yeah, and it was even better before they made all the dropped gear Bound. If someone needed something that you got, you could hand it over, even if it was a guildie asking in chat three weeks later. The idea of "personal loot" being unsociable is ridiculous.
I wasn't judging it on its use in a pug, I was asking why people feel they deserve to dictate what drops other players get. If you need an item to make your character better, why should you give it up? What would have been yours in a personal loot system can now be given away to somebody else who now gets to progress where you would otherwise have done.
I get that guild/raid leaders like using it, but that's likely cos it's they that have given themselves the power of being the "master". I've always been willing to share any unneeded drops with my raid group, even the occasional times I've been in a pug, and it's always been reciprocated. Maybe I've just played with friendlier people!
In all the raid guilds I have been in master loot works fine.
The master looter (usually raid leader) has people roll for the piece and hads it out. It keeps people honest and prevents ninja loot crap. Plus on the up side of that helps to keep track of the stuff so you can pass it out evenly based on what people need based on what is best for the whole team.
This is a very narrow self centered view. A rising tide lifts all ships. If it helps me a little but you a little more it makes more sense to let you have it to make the group better. By you being able to do your part better the group as a whole is better.
This is a very large part of why I hate GW2 so much. Personal loot and the complete lack of group play. Nobody is dependent on anyone else. MMO's should be a team sport not one player does everything all the time mage/tank Superman style(except for the little green rocks).
Fortunately almost all gear will be crafted so most of what will be handled by this system will be crafting materials. That makes it easier still.
To me,if there is loot I want, it is guild or friends. If I am out to meet new people, it is content that has no real worth to me.
As such, I see master looter as essential, and don't much care about other methods - the game obviously needs to ha eothermethods, I just don't much care what they are.
It's all gonna be money, and it all adds up man. I am gonna be Scrooge McDuck.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I'd much rather loot was based on an impartial system process, than on another player I may not have even met IRL and whose guild/raid friends of four or five years are also in the raid with me.
Round Robin Brah.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
In a pick up scenario, nothing. People that think this have mental issues.
Totally different situation in guild/friend settings though - if you don't think your friends and/or guildmates are able to make a good decision in this regard, gett better friends.
The problem with impartial loot systems is that they do one of two things. Either all players end up with lower quality loot, or quality loot enters the game too fast.
In a top end PvE situation, a raid of 40 people should expect to get about 2 items per hour - basically 1 item for 20 player-hours worth of effort. No impartial system can deal with this, and so what has to happen if you are trying to force an impartial system on players without flooding the game with top end loot is that developers break the loot down in to smaller and smaller chuncks so that all 40 of those people can get something every 15 - 20 minutes.
What I will say is that since a raid should only expect to see one quality item every 20 player-hours or so, if you are joining a pickup raid, just straight up don't expect to get anything. The odds are not in your favor.
There is a system why 98+% of the competitive Raiding community. I can see that you have never participated in such an environment, so the thought process might be somewhat alien to you. When WoW got rid of master loot in favor of personal loot, these guilds and communities even required an Add-On, that shows all the tradable personal loot every single member gets. These members were required to hand them over to the loot council, so it can be redistributed to the raid members utilizing them best. The members, where the Delta between the old piece of gear and the new piece of gear is the highest. People failing to accept that won't even make it into these groups, as that kind of group thinking is a baseline requirement.
Just a quick example:
Its not about controlling the others. Its about determining what's best for the group as a whole. Which is the a baseline necessity to be competitive in the long run.
Applied to an Ashes example:
You and your raid drop a unique legendary scepter, which might be the only copy of it on the entire server, outright the BIS Item for every healer on the entire server and worth a literal swimming pool full of gold. Considering everybody has equally participated in killing the boss, everybody should have the same chance of obtaining this Top-Tier Item? That might be fair, but it is also crippling your progression as a raid/team/guild.
If you had the choice of giving it to:
Player A (Rogue):
Player B (Cleric):
Player C (Cleric):
Out of pure "fairness", everybody should have equal chances of rolling on it as everybody contributed to the kill.That's crippling to the progress of the guild as a whole though. For any competitive environment, the only choice is to give it to Player B, as that's what's best for the collective. Everybody that can't accept that won't even find a space in these environments, as willing to accept that collective group thinking is one of the baseline requirements to join these communities.
Master Loot helps enforcing exactly that. That's why everybody in a competitive environment likes that tool. To them, it's as necessary as other loot options are for you because otherwise, this game would just devolve into ninja looting galore.
WOW was like this last couple of expansions. Everyone gets a trophy. I skipped this one completely and so far have seen no excuse to play the current expansion.
Indeed.
This kind of thing takes games from being all about improving your guild and guild members, to being all about me and what I can get.
It is almost as negative a system for MMO's in general as LFG is.
When a player spends an hour+ completing a raid, it is unacceptable that they may receive nothing for their time. I was of the mind that you disagreed with a game wasting players' time.
Y'all ain't spent 30+ hours a week proging a single boss just to see the loot go to the worst player?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Reasoning: I am in favor of a hand-to-hand exchange of loot. Dice rolls are fine in this case, because you are competing with another member of your party who may deserve that gear as much as you do. I prefer Master Loot and the DKP system the most because the Raid Leader (or Loot Council) has the power to look at player participation over a period of time based on accrued points each player has collected, and give that piece of gear to the rightful player who deserves it the most (thus, that player spends a good amount of points and will need to accrue more). I personally think DKP is the best system based off past experience.
If the only reason you despise Master Loot is due to bad experiences with ninja leaders / inner-circle bias, then you are not grouping with the right people. You need to know who you are playing the game with in order to trust them. How about join a guild that treats everyone equally? It's on you to find the right people.
Personal Loot is a machine. There's nothing 'MMORPG' about it. You may as well be playing Call of Duty solo and opening loot boxes. I agree with the guy that called WoW a Co-Op RPG, as they have practically abolished every hand-to-hand exchange of loot (and community) from the game (aside from trading, but who cares?).
Lastly, to anyone who strongly favors Personal Loot, ask yourself these questions:
@Vhaeyne
I think they don't understand, that personal loot isn't gonna increase the amount of loot that drops overall.
Whether its just personal loot or master loot, you'll still just drop let's say 9 items from the 3 bosses.
The difference is, that with master loot the guild/raidgroup can decide together who will receive those items. Personal loot, you also have that option (as long as the items are tradeable, but you can't enforce a raid-wide ruleset regarding distribution, as every member has the chance to simply pocket the item that was found in "his" lootbag.
So everyone needs a trophy?
MMORPG's are supposed to be a team sport not a solo experience for that I can go play 2077 or some other solo game.
Hellfar is right with his questions.
Yes, everyone who puts the time in, deserve something of use, whether that be gold, materials, or, however unlikely, a piece of gear. “Participation trophy” implies people who lost get rewarded, but a group that successfully clears a raid did not lose. They were successful as a group, they should all be rewarded for their success. Are the medals given out to the players of a winning team participation trophies? No, obviously not. The very same logic applies here.
The group got rewarded for their success. That makes it easier for the group to complete the content again or even harder content. I have been passed over for loot and didn't care as the group got better. Gold is a side reward as it usually is low but could be more here. Getting materials is what we will most likely see here based on what they have said so far.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables
Using WoW again the loot is so common now that most people get stuff every fight and that then makes the content even less relevant faster. This is part of why they see so many spikes up and down in player count. Every one logs in and get the new gear first 2-3 times through and logs out till next raid comes out.
The thing with raiding is - you are not progressing yourself, you are progressing your guild.
A raid that is being successful on content that is appropriate to their point in progression should obtain several items an hour, on average 2 - 3.
Any one of those items that goes to a member of the raid and makes them better is a reward for every player in the raid - as that player being better means the raid is better.
It is the fact that some people look at rewards from raids as being for the individual rather than for the raid that is the issue.