Artificial Scarcity and Emotional Manipulation

Maezriel wrote: »

If I say Netflix and Chill to my wife there's no implication that I want to watch anything...however if I say it to my little brother my pants are staying on as is the TV.

I'm glad you understand the notion that conjoining words can alter their meaning, and yes, sometimes that meaning is subsubjective.

However, there is no meaning of the term "emotional manipulation" that is anything other than a description of a form of abuse. That is the singular meaning those two words have when joined in that manner.

You may well have been involved in emotional advertising while working in that field, but that was not emotional manipulation.

Likewise, you can talk about trying to illicit a specific emotional response, or about manipulating emotions. These things are not the same thing as emotional manipulation, because as I have said many times, those two words have a very specific and very narrow meaning when joined in that way, and that meaning is without exception a form of abuse.

While it is not my particular area of expertise, I've sat in on some fairly high level meetings involving marketing discussions over the last decade and a bit. I've heard discussion about emotional advertising a lot. I have never once heard anyone utter the words "emotional manipulation" in that order, however.

I am fairly sure they would be out of a job if they did.

Emotional advertising is absolutely not an inherently bad thing. Emotional manipulation, however, is.

They don't need to make "increasingly better" cosmetics. Better is wholly subjective and near impossible to properly define which is actually a common topic when it comes to the lack of clarity w/ what the "better" cosmetics will be in the game.

While obviously true that better is subjective, Intrepid need to attempt to continually make better.

Every new cosmetic that goes up for sale is being sold, primarily, to people that had the opportunity to buy previous cosmetics. That new cosmetic will only sell to someone that either sees that cosmetic as being better than the one they already bought, or better than the ones they decided to not buy.

As such, it is in Intrepids best interests to always make better cosmetics, even if that is a subjective term.

Maezriel

@Noaani here it is from the wiki itself

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through indirect, deceptive, or underhanded tactics. By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at another's expense, such methods could be considered exploitative and devious.

Social influence is not necessarily negative. For example, people such as friends, family and doctors, can try to persuade to change clearly unhelpful habits and behaviors. Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject it, and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

Which is derived from the Merriam Webster definition of Manipulate

Definition of manipulate
transitive verb

1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
manipulate a pencil
manipulate a machine
2a: to manage or utilize skillfully
quantify our data and manipulate it statistically
— S. L. Payne
b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
being used and manipulated by the knowing men around him
— New Republic
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose : DOCTOR
suspected that the police reports were manipulated
— Evelyn G. Cruickshanks

I've sat in college lectures on exactly this topic I've talked w/ people where we used the terms interchangeably. You might not agree w/ it, but I'm using this term correctly.

Maezriel wrote: »

Noaani here it is from the wiki itself

That entry differentiates between psychological manipulation and emotional manipulation, yet is only discussing physchological.

Again, it is not what we are talking about, just as emotional advertising as a term is not what we are talking about.

Maezriel

@Noaani it's nothing personal but I'm going to be dropping the conversation here b/c I'm not going to keep arguing semantics. We've both said our piece on it and the intended meaning of the thread has been made more than clear multiple times. Regardless of how precisely it's labeled the store does elicit a FOMO response in many players which is what OP was talking about when he started this thread.

Maezriel wrote: »

Regardless of how precisely it's labeled the store does elicit a FOMO response in many players which is what OP was talking about when he started this thread.

If so, as pointed out within the first few posts, this is a "them" problem, not an Intrepid problem.

Since we have discerned that his is a common advertising/marketing tactic, these people can not simply expect literally every company in the world to alter their marketing and sales plans just for them. Rather, these people need to work on what it is that makes them - and only them - feel this unjustified, illogical need.

mcstackerson

Nerror wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

As Noaani has pointed out, intrepid isn't selling anything you need. These aren't essential items, even in the context of the game. At the end of the day, you want this for selfish reasons and are using "emotional manipulation" to try to get them to give you what you want. You aren't just giving a subjective opinion on how you would prefer the shop to be implemented, you are accusing them of doing something negative ("emotioanl manipulation") and saying they should change because they are doing this negative thing.

I mean, yes, in a way.. I am not sure what your point is here, other than trying to ascribe motives to me and make me look bad? You wrote that for selfish reasons too. Ultimately everything we do is for selfish reasons. Helping others is partly a selfish act, because it makes us either feel good, or it helps us in a different way down the line.

My motive for criticizing Intrepid for the FOMO tactics in the cash shop is that it will hurt the game long term in terms of player retention and quite possibly new player aquisition as well, unless they tone the FOMO tactics way down. There are other studies that back that up as well.

I don't care much for the past cosmetics really, but I sure as shit care about the contents and longevity of this game, because that directly affects my future fun. So selfish? Yeah, I really want this game to succeed for my own sake as well. There are ways to fundraise without using fear as a driver.

There is nothing wrong with being selfish. As i said, saying you want something and you would prefer something changed is fine to me. That's what you should be doing on these forums. My issue is you are using selfishness as a justification for using "emotional manipulation" as a way to get what you want.

If you read that study, can you tell me the part of the study that applied more to this. From what i read, it sounded like the studies boiled down to them telling a group of people all the cool shit they could be doing while having them do something else and asking how it effected their enjoyment of what they did. To me, while we call it the same thing and i'm sure there are some similar emotions, that's pretty different from missing out on getting a product.

When it comes to FOMO, we can agree that it is a component of any limited time offer, can we not? Are all limited time offers where the limitation is not created by actual supply bad? Doesn't context need to be taken into consideration?

I'm not sure if you play wow but there are various things that can only be earned over either a pvp season or an expansion. Since they are only available for a limited time, there is a FOMO component to them. Is that bad? Is that hurting wow's subscriber base?

What about limited time sales? even if you can still get the product after the sale, there is still a FOMO component to that. Is that bad?

So, this whole topic was an interesting read, and honestly I agree with OP. They are directly using FOMO to get people to buy these cosmetics. The same way I disagree with loot boxes I disagree with FOMO. Meanwhile we have people in this topic trying to define things to each other in extremely logical ways yet this is a post that was originally brought up because using FOMO as a sales tactic is direct emotional manipulation. The idea of selling products for a limited time, especially cosmetics, which realistically could be brought back with the click of a button, is manipulating people into purchasing the cosmetics by making them fear that they will never be available again. How exactly does that NOT make this emotional manipulation?? I'll never know.

I'll give my own personal frustration with this type of marketing. I've been following this game a while, not terribly closely, and especially I backed off quite a bit after the APOC fiasco (I understand why APOC existed in the first place, no need to explain). Now, I love wolves, have ever since I was a child. So after coming back to following the game more closely I was furious when I discovered that I missed the Rime and Regal cosmetic month. Especially given that they refuse to bring back the cosmetics in general. You cannot tell me that there will be another Wolf-drawn sleigh. If there is people will be livid that there "oh so special limited time -insert sound of disgust- cosmetic" has been nearly replicated with slight changes. I on the other hand will be quite happy I get another chance at it. If I can find a way to nearly duplicate the wolf-drawn sleigh with in game items, people will be equally pissed.

Here is how I see these particular cosmetics, because of the above: There will never ever be another wolf-drawn sleigh. There will never be another wolf pup non-combat pet. There will never be another reindeer mount. Hell I'd be surprised if we saw another wolf-drawn ANYTHING.

Now, so far, I'm extremely excited for this game, and was planning on dropping money for the alpha 1 access just to get a feel for the game and give my feedback. However, what has primarily stopped me is this horrible marketing. I've personally come to terms with the idea of pre-order garbage, but this is taking it too far. This isn't just pre-order. This is pre-order cosmetics that we can't even use yet that will also never be available again.

This is a detriment to the game in my honest opinion. Here's why:

Game comes out
People who haven't heard of the game at all because they live under a rock or generally don't follow games that aren't remotely close to release
These people love this game
These people see awesome cosmetics that other people have and want to buy them or acquire them in some way
They find out they can't because they were only available 2 year ago before the game was even in Alpha
They complain
Intrepid has 2 options release the cosmetics again to make a large portion of the player base happy but upset the long term supporters, or not release the cosmetics again
Both options suck and both options have the potential to make players leave the game

If I had that wolf-drawn sleigh, personally, I don't care if it's special or no one else can buy it again, I just want it for my own personal use. The fact of the matter is, this is a very very manipulative way of marketing and as many have already stated seems rather unnecessary for a game that is already fully funded by Steven. Based on what I've seen, Steven is trying to not have to put forth the money that he already committed by making money while the game is in development.

Furthermore, I feel that the devs are backing themselves into a corner with cosmetics like this. As they have stated that there will never be variant of these cosmetics available via store or in game acquisition. So there will never be another wolf pup non-combat pet at all. There will also never be another Reindeer. Because there is no way of making these not just variants.

I feel that what will ultimately happen here is them explaining their way out of this with loop-hole BS, and I'm ultimately just waiting for that day at this point. The other option is a dead game, imo.

@Heruwolf

Heruwolf wrote: »

If I can find a way to nearly duplicate the wolf-drawn sleigh with in game items, people will be equally pissed.

No they won't.

There is almost no doubt that there will be wolf or wolflike mounts available in game - not even cosmetics, but actual wolf mounts. There is an entire profession dedicated to breeding different types of animals, and I would have to think that wolves would have been the second animal in the developers list of things to include, right after horses.

With this assumption, you can then have wolves pulling literally any caravan type you like, you are in no way limited to it being a sleigh (though you could make it a sleigh if you wanted). You can also have a wolf as your mount, and probably even a wolf as your packmule.

This seems much better to me than being limited to a single look cosmetic for your entire caravan.

@Noaani While I agree with you the problem is, is that they have directly stated that there will not be any variants of the cosmetics available. I take that as no to all of the possibilities. Perhaps that's the wrong point of view as of this moment, but from what I remember of the last 2 live stream Q&A's they specifically took the time to "correct" peoples understanding of cosmetics. I'm searching for where they mentioned this, but perhaps it's moot.

Heruwolf wrote: »

Intrepid has 2 options release the cosmetics again to make a large portion of the player base happy but upset the long term supporters, or not release the cosmetics again

Not gonna happen. To do so would damage their reputation, and all of the good will they have earned thus far.
It could possibly lead to legal action. Intrepid would be crazy to reverse course on this at this point, or any point in the future.

I have only been here for half a year, but as far as I can tell. This topic has come up multiple times in the last few years, and Intrepid has not seemed to consider changing course. Which is the correct action.

Cosmetics are not going to ruin the game. This is not Baribes dress up game. All of the kicking and screaming in this thread, or the next one like it a week from now is not going to change that.

@Vhaeyne While I would love to agree with you, FFXIV, known as one of the most successful MMO's there is, there is an on-running joke within that game that "Fashion is the end-game." So, because of exactly that, I cannot agree with you. There will be plenty of people who are rather upset at the way that this game is currently marketing its cosmetics.

Now let me explain, I would have no issues with this at all if the game was out and there was just a store button in game that I could click each month to see the new cosmetics, but as of this moment, I can't even use these cosmetics. It's possible that I'll never get to use these cosmetics regardless of purchase. I'm not saying that they should go back on their word and re-release cosmetics onto the store. I'm saying that I feel they have and will continue to back themselves into a corner because of what they have said on stream about not being able to acquire variants of the cosmetics by any means.

Heruwolf wrote: »

I take that as no to all of the possibilities. .

Well that would be foolish of Intrepid if that is what they did.

That would mean they couldn't have in game horse mounts, as they have released horse mounts on the shop.

What Intrepid said is that you won't find recolors of purchased cosmetics in the game as something players can find - but you may find parts of purchased cosmetics. As an example, the shoulder piece of a purchased cosmetic may be used in game as an items specific look - even though the shoulder portion of the cosmetic can't be used by itself.

They have never said there won't be cosmetics in the same general class as what has been released on the store, simply that they won't recolor or re-material those models.

The quote you want it here...

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends, a quick clarification on the shop cosmetics.

There will not be recolors or material swaps on the monthly cosmetics as a means to populate additional achievements in game by player characters. There will however be variants of the cosmetics for NPC populations including quest-givers, guards, merchants and creatures. Additionally, from an armor standpoint, we cut armor sets up into many different pieces. These pieces can sometimes be used as part of other sets, that may include helmets, wrists, gloves etc. So while you will not see an achievable white version of the corvid castigator set in the game for example, you may see its shoulder piece used in another set, or its leggings, or wrist piece used in another set (not every piece as to form the whole set, but perhaps a couple pieces). This would be difficult to notice at first glance, due to the material, texture and color variation used, but this modular approach to content creation makes achieving a wide variety of looks achievable for an MMORPG of our size.

With that being said however, the intent behind my approach to these cosmetics, as well as the cosmetics that will be achievable in the game, is to provide a richer experience of visual diversity than we are typically accustomed to in the MMORPGs we have played in the past. There will be legendary cosmetics that are ONLY achievable in game and players can know wont be offered in some cosmetic shop in the future undermining their accomplishment. As well as for the more casual players time exclusive purchasable cosmetics from the marketplace, that players who purchase these can rest assured they won't be available again in some sale by the company in the future.

It's important to remember, Ashes is a NO-BOX COST subscription only game, with an optional cosmetic marketplace. This achieves a few things from a monetization model. Having a lower barrier to entry for players to try the game when they don't have to fork out $60 for the box price is good, our box price is 0$. This also places an emphasis on the game's retention and our continual updates and content creation to keep players playing and staying subscribed (a put your money where your mouth is sort of philosophy for us as a company). It also means players don't have to spend $60 everytime there is an expansion.

Is there an answer that satisfies everyone? Nope. And that's ok. We are open and transparent with our philosophies and business model. You know what you are getting with Ashes and to me, given my experiences in other games, it is a nice breath of fresh air.

Heruwolf wrote: »

@Vhaeyne While I would love to agree with you, FFXIV, known as one of the most successful MMO's there is an on-running joke within that game that "Fashion is the end-game." So, because of exactly that, I cannot agree with you. There will be plenty of people who are rather upset at the way that this game is currently marketing its cosmetics.

I actually play FFXIV from time to time. I only come back to prog new Savage, or help friends with EX. I literally do nothing else in that game. I have a keyboard macro that allows me to skip cutscenes faster, and I have zero clue what the story is about. I generally have one outfit that I have worn for years. When I get a new piece of gear, I just glamor my outfit over it. I am know a lot of people who just glamor their classes artifact set. Fashion is not a deal breaker in FFXIV for me at all. I have plenty of FFXIV friends who don't care. I think even "Mr. Happy" has never unlocked glamour on his main character last I checked? If they said they were getting rid of Savage, my sub would stop that day. In the case of FFXIV I can't agree with you.

Heruwolf wrote: »

Now let me explain, I would have no issues with this at all if the game was out and there was just a store button in game that I could click each month to see the new cosmetics, but as of this moment, I can't even use these cosmetics. It's possible that I'll never get to use these cosmetics regardless of purchase. I'm not saying that they should go back on their word and re-release cosmetics onto the store. I'm saying that I feel they have and will continue to back themselves into a corner because of what they have said on stream about not being able to acquire variants of the cosmetics by any means.

They could say: "Once we go live, the monthly supporter packs will be replaced with a system that has new cosmetics that stay in the shop for X months.". I bet that would be acceptable to most people, but right now we are living with a different system.

I pointed this out in another thread, and have had it clarified by the DEVs. The cosmetics that are in the monthly supporter packs are not great from a fashion prospective. If "Fashion is your endgame", than you want nothing to do with these cosmetics because they are not interchangeable or dyable. What you see is how you look. Best case in that you can toggle the helmet. There are a few sets like that in FFXIV, but you don't see them worn often because they are not fun.

My hope would be that once the game goes live, they put new cosmetics in the store that are interchangeable/ dyable and have a more than a month shopping window. Then these supporter cosmetics can be the extra special costumes they are intended to be.

The mounts/caravan skins on the other hand. Those are valuable. People are going to lose their mind when they realize that they can't have this beautiful beast:

@Vhaeyne You cannot tell me that cosmetics won't ruin this game, when there are literal, entire areas of the game that you will be able to design to be EXACTLY how you want them.... with cosmetics.... such as Freeholds or houses within cities, specifically. I don't believe you are looking at this game the same way that a large portion of the playerbase will be looking at it. I would honestly say that you are the odd-man out here in terms of the way people will most likely play this game. Of course we won't know until the game releases. With the way this game is theoretically designed, it's not likely that the way a game like WoW is currently played, where it's top 1% are largely seen as "the only way to play the game," is the way that this games community will evolve. You will require players who just craft, or who just tame creatures, or who just breed animals, or who just farm ore/herbs/trees/whatever and to those people cosmetics mean much, much, MUCH more to them than what I assume they mean to you.

You have to realize that if every FFXIV player was like you and your friends that game would be long since dead. It has a massive cosmetic population. The ward system had to be expanded to allow for more player housing because people like cosmetics THAT much. I truly believe you are in the minority here. Yes, I also will want to progress through dungeons and raids in AoC, but it definitely will not be the ONLY thing that I do. Nor do I think that it will be possible for an entire player base to ONLY want to do that one thing in AoC. AoC is designed around an entire community, not just your one niche way of playing the game. I also believe that a server will require all types of players, not just your type of playing. Which is fine. That means that your way of playing is perfectly valid and actively valuable to the game, but I do not think that an entire server can be run with people who have just your mind set, you'd have holes in your economy, you'd be lacking materials to build things, you'd lack crafters to repair gear, you'd lack materials on the auction house to buy for those of us who are too lazy to farm them ourselves, you'd lack master crafters to craft/repair legendary equipment, you'd lack master gatherers who can get extremely rare gatherables off of boss mobs.

Noaani wrote: »

Heruwolf wrote: »

I take that as no to all of the possibilities. .

Well that would be foolish of Intrepid if that is what they did.

That would mean they couldn't have in game horse mounts, as they have released horse mounts on the shop.

What Intrepid said is that you won't find recolors of purchased cosmetics in the game as something players can find - but you may find parts of purchased cosmetics. As an example, the shoulder piece of a purchased cosmetic may be used in game as an items specific look - even though the shoulder portion of the cosmetic can't be used by itself.

They have never said there won't be cosmetics in the same general class as what has been released on the store, simply that they won't recolor or re-material those models.

It's highly possible that I just simply took that thought and ran with it in my head. So be it. At this point I still dislike the monthly cosmetic thing for the same reasons as OP. I think it's bs artificial scarcity for the purpose of using FOMO to make money. While yes the game needs these funds, I feel they could be doing it in a much more, for lack of a better term, honorable way.

Jeetoph

I am not a collector like most of the people who feel manipulated in this thread (not judging) but even I, who consider the skins as a pre-order bonus and nothing else, have some issues with this monthly cosmetic system.

Unlike @Heruwolf I don't care for past limited skins. Yeah it sucks if there was a particular set you liked but I consider it as "I was there"-reward. In addition I read that there will be variants IG for shop cosmetics (see here)

Now my problem comes with future skins in pre-order packs. To use a similar "wolf set"-example, what if I pre-order the Beta 1 access pack now but in september the very same pack will have a set dedicated to platypus. And it happens that I really like platypuses. Why should I spend more money instead of just choosing this skin instead of the one I bought a couple of months earlier ?
I don't think any player would feel betrayed if you could just choose a skin out of any pack from the date you pre-ordered until launch.

(That said there might as well be platypus variants IG...)

Edit : Re-read Steven's comment. Cosmetic variants are for NPC only ^^'

@Heruwolf These are the sacred texts from which I was sold on AOC, and shape my expectations for the game.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars

Cosmetics is listed exactly one time on that page as a subsection under player agency.

Personally I am 100% confident. AOC would be fine with zero cosmetics. Some would say it might be better off, because cosmetics attract a "certain crowd". I am fine with cosmetics being the game, but it's not why the game was made. What is special about AOC is node warfare, and the focus on community and socialization.
Cosmetics is a single thread in that fabric that would not not destroy the whole cloth if removed.

Lastly:

Heruwolf wrote: »

I think it's bs artificial scarcity for the purpose of using FOMO to make money..

To be clear, we just discovered that the fear of missing out that you had was largely due to you not having done your research properly.

You seem like a somewhat intelligent person (as far as people on the internet go), and yet you "fell" for a FOMO that wasn't due to lack of information. It is perfectly reasonable to assume this is something that happens - people fear they are missing out on something when really there is probably going to be something they like better in the live game.

I don't personally consider this to be Intrepids fault.

Jeetoph wrote: »

I don't think any player would feel betrayed if you could just choose a skin out of any pack from the date you pre-ordered until launch.

I would feel betrayed because I want Snail Boi to be special. My FFXIV character will never have that slick back tattoo because I started playing in Heavensward. I am fine with that because all of my FC friends who have it feel special, and if I was able to get it. I would be taking something away from them. They have their tattoo, and it is special.

I don't know how many people was able to get snail- boi, but I can tell you right now. If the number of people with that mount ever goes up... I ain't gonna be happy about it.