McMackMuck wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » @McMackMuck @halbarz what is your previous experience with macros in games? For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable). No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands. I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays). I don't feel the need to go into this in depth. The developers present a game to the community. The interface is the keyboard and mouse. We are all equally limited by our ability to use the same interface [Disabled caveats mentioned previously]. Interfering with the operation of the UI unbalances this fairness. Macros (outside the functionality that the game already provides) only exist as a method of making something easier for the player. It doesn't matter how innocuous that little macro advantage seems, it is still an advantage. The extent of that unfair advantage is then no longer controlled by the devs, but by third party macro writing abilities, those who are more inclined towards real world programming skills or who know people that will write macros for them. There is then an escalation of macro writing which leaves a percentage of the community dis-enfranchised. Over time this leaves only the highly proficient macro users to compete at the highest level and everyone else resenting them as cheats or "only winning because of their macros". Players quit. Well done, macros have just killed the game! It is better to nip this macro use and escalation in the bud than to wait until the game dies to realize that macros are a problem. IMO.
rikardp98 wrote: » @McMackMuck @halbarz what is your previous experience with macros in games? For me it's mostly wow classic where macros is mostly (to me, and how I have seen them used) off-gcd ability into one GCD ability, out of combat macros like gear changing macro, and targeting macros (where the "focus" commands is questionable). No delays or wait commands to cast multiple spells, and from my experience no huge game changing commands. I don't like the argument "I don't want them", please give me some examples (non-scribt like macro, no wait or delays).
rikardp98 wrote: » halbarz wrote: » I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW. Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction No one said that ashes should be the next wow. I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought.
halbarz wrote: » I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW. Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction
vmangman wrote: » My guy, I understand that you didn't understand at first just how much of an advantage macros were in WoW. But then I explained to you that macros are incredibly powerful in WoW and absolutely give and advantage to those who use them well. Yet you are still here blabbering about how WoW had a decent macro system. Stop it. Just because you didn't know how to use macros to their full potential in WoW it doesn't mean that they weren't incredibly powerful. Stop claiming that macros were fine in WoW. If AoC follows the same macro system as WoW (their full potential and not the joke version that you used), macros will be essential for players who want to be competitive and that would be horrible.
vmangman wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » halbarz wrote: » I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW. Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction No one said that ashes should be the next wow. I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought. My guy, I understand that you didn't understand at first just how much of an advantage macros were in WoW. But then I explained to you that macros are incredibly powerful in WoW and absolutely give and advantage to those who use them well. Yet you are still here blabbering about how WoW had a decent macro system. Stop it. Just because you didn't know how to use macros to their full potential in WoW it doesn't mean that they weren't incredibly powerful. Stop claiming that macros were fine in WoW. If AoC follows the same macro system as WoW (their full potential and not the joke version that you used), macros will be essential for players who want to be competitive and that would be horrible.
halbarz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » halbarz wrote: » I think we can all agree that all this WoW talk is making us sick, nobody (I hope) wants Ashes to be another WoW. Let's eat ice cream and prevent @Vhaeyne prediction No one said that ashes should be the next wow. I only gave that example since WoW had a decent macro system that worked pretty well in that game. Now, it may or may not work in ashes, buy I just wanted to have a discussion about it and see what other people thought. Sorry I think you understood me wrong hihi, didn't mean that you said it should be the next WoW. Was more a general statement. It is good to have these discussions especially in a respectful way like this thread.
consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros.
Leiloni wrote: » consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros. That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on.
rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros. That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on. I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes.
rikardp98 wrote: » I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD
Leiloni wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros. That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on. I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes. I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's.
rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros. That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on. I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes. I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD
rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros. That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on. I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes. I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's. That's true, but in WoW classic I'm not 100% sure Focus target frame exist. Some add-ons probably have this. Now I'm quit curtain Ashes will have this (boss frame), so you are correct that, my use of the mouseover macro won't be necessary. I personally like the physical feedback when clicking the target I want to heal, so I'm 100% sure that's the player I will heal. So no complaints from me there.
Leiloni wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » consultant wrote: » Think a limited macro systiem for targeting would be pretty cool. Like for healers target tank, use said ability, target last target. The in game macros in WoW can be used to partially automate game play. (sequence macros. That's totally unnecessary and I would file that under healer skill. Ability to navigate the UI and party/raid window along with effective keybinding in a quick, accurate, and efficient manner is key to a successful healer. Now it's also not necessarily difficult, but there's no need to macro it and it could give the person macroing an unfair advantage over those who don't (and make things somewhat automated). Gear swaps, chat spam for crafting/guilds, sure those have valid reasons to want macros. But clicking a target, using your keybind, and going back to your last target? Come on. I use the mouseover macro and if I don't mouseover anyone I heal the targets target (the tank). I started using this macro a few months back, and i quite like it. I use it so I can always target the boss and follow it's health, cast bar and debuffs. I don't use it because I find it quicker or easier, and I find in quite unreliable and start clicking my target sometimes. I also can not find a good reason to use the "target to last target" useful. Maybe i understand the "targets last target" wrong xD That's what a Focus target is for. Focus target the boss and you will be able to see it's health, what it's casting, who it's targeting, and easily re-target it when necessary. It creates a separate/secondary, permanent target frame for whoever your focus target is, that exists separately from your current target (i.e. whatever player/mob you manually target). No need to create macros for something that's a basic UI element present in most modern MMO's. That's true, but in WoW classic I'm not 100% sure Focus target frame exist. Some add-ons probably have this. Now I'm quit curtain Ashes will have this (boss frame), so you are correct that, my use of the mouseover macro won't be necessary. I personally like the physical feedback when clicking the target I want to heal, so I'm 100% sure that's the player I will heal. So no complaints from me there. Yea that was the problem is that Classic didn't have a focus target IIRC, but that's also a game made like 15 years ago.
Merek wrote: » Threads like this and the DPS thread make me realize a large portion of the MMO community don't want innovation, they just want the next slice of the same pie.
daveywavey wrote: » Macros are cheating, plain and simple.
VmanGman wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » vmangman wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Tyranthraxus wrote: » Warth wrote: » there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes. That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video. Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components. I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros. I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal. However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out. When I say macro I mean very simple commands like /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell" Or /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation /Startattack /Cast Maul Or /Pull 7 Or /Equip The end of dreams /Equip Therazanes Touch Simple macros and not scripts. The problem with what your suggesting is that someone who uses those macros has a slight edge over someone who doesn't. I am then forced to learn and use those macros as well. I am trying to play a character in a fantasy world... I don't want to have to worry about setting up macros and scripts. Non of the macros I have given as an example give me an advantage over other players. They are just time saving macros that makes my life little easier. Like the equipment macro, I can press a button outside if combat to equip different gear instead of opening my back and putting it on (not in combat). The mouse over macro is personal taste, some like to press the raid frames, some like to press F# keys, and some like to use mouse over macro so I don't have to click and then heal (not an advantage). The start attack macro is so I don't have to right click the mob to make sure Im attacking the target. Macros I'm wanting and like so the kind that saves you some time and makes you press less button (mostly outside if combat). I don't want scripts that makes you do a full rotation by pressing one button. Since when is saving time in combat not an advantage? Macros like canceling auras and switching out your weapons mid combat absolutely gives you an advantage. I think that these macros are an advantage partially due to poor game design, but you can't say that speeding up processes for you is not an advantage... that's literally the whole advantage. And if I don't have a cancel aura macro, or focus target casting macros, or weapon switching macros then I am slower and therefore worse than someone who uses those macros.
rikardp98 wrote: » vmangman wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Tyranthraxus wrote: » Warth wrote: » there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes. That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video. Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components. I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros. I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal. However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out. When I say macro I mean very simple commands like /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell" Or /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation /Startattack /Cast Maul Or /Pull 7 Or /Equip The end of dreams /Equip Therazanes Touch Simple macros and not scripts. The problem with what your suggesting is that someone who uses those macros has a slight edge over someone who doesn't. I am then forced to learn and use those macros as well. I am trying to play a character in a fantasy world... I don't want to have to worry about setting up macros and scripts. Non of the macros I have given as an example give me an advantage over other players. They are just time saving macros that makes my life little easier. Like the equipment macro, I can press a button outside if combat to equip different gear instead of opening my back and putting it on (not in combat). The mouse over macro is personal taste, some like to press the raid frames, some like to press F# keys, and some like to use mouse over macro so I don't have to click and then heal (not an advantage). The start attack macro is so I don't have to right click the mob to make sure Im attacking the target. Macros I'm wanting and like so the kind that saves you some time and makes you press less button (mostly outside if combat). I don't want scripts that makes you do a full rotation by pressing one button.
vmangman wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Tyranthraxus wrote: » Warth wrote: » there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes. That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video. Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components. I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros. I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal. However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out. When I say macro I mean very simple commands like /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell" Or /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation /Startattack /Cast Maul Or /Pull 7 Or /Equip The end of dreams /Equip Therazanes Touch Simple macros and not scripts. The problem with what your suggesting is that someone who uses those macros has a slight edge over someone who doesn't. I am then forced to learn and use those macros as well. I am trying to play a character in a fantasy world... I don't want to have to worry about setting up macros and scripts.
rikardp98 wrote: » Tyranthraxus wrote: » Warth wrote: » there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes. That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video. Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components. I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros. I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal. However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out. When I say macro I mean very simple commands like /Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell" Or /Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation /Startattack /Cast Maul Or /Pull 7 Or /Equip The end of dreams /Equip Therazanes Touch Simple macros and not scripts.
Tyranthraxus wrote: » Warth wrote: » there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes. That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video. Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components. I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.
Warth wrote: » there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes. That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago
Lycancoffee wrote: » Macros and mods don’t belong in competitive games. Consoles consider macro controllers “cheating”. It’s too bad it is so hard to reduce macroing for PC.
