Blazing the Way - Mage Alpha One Preview

✨ Are you ready to rain raw destruction on your foes? 🔥

Meet the Mage and find out more about their might from level 1-10 in our Alpha One Preview: https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2020-12-23-blazing-the-way-mage-alpha-one-preview

https://youtu.be/lQo1WK0HkcI

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Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

Two, you are saying that people should not comment on things just because they are not finished. (No feedback during development)

I'm SPECIFICALLY not saying that.

I am saying sure, share your opinions, just be aware that what we see now is a work in progress.

More to the point, I seem to be defending the fact that passing on actual information is an ok thing to do, which is a situation I find to be both odd and infuriating.

There is very rarely a time to criticize someone for saying something that is objectively true, and those rare times absolutely do not happen on a forum about an MMO.

Literally my first post in this thread.

Noaani wrote: »

Telling Intrepid that you think that the thing that they have no intention of keeping is not what you would consider to be good enough is fine.

Again, what the fuck is your problem?

ariatras

Just curious, what exactly makes you think anyone is unaware that this is not what it will look like in the final product? @Noaani ?

It didn't read like that to me. I have criticised the animations several times. In full knowledge that it is hardly the final product. But this -is- the time to give feedback. So they can adjust in a desirable direction.

Repeating "It's just alpha, it's not the final product" doesn't help anyone, least of all Intrepid.

Noaani

ariatras wrote: »

Just curious, what exactly makes you think anyone is unaware that this is not what it will look like in the final product?

Nothing.

But as I have said, I am making sure these comments are here for people that are reading, not posting.

Even if literally everyone knows this actual objective fact, there is still no harm in restating it. I mean, with how many of these threads are out there, people can't exactly complain about repeating the same thing to those of us saying the animations aren't in their final form unless they are also saying the same thing to the people starting up these threads.

rikardp98

Noaani wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Two, you are saying that people should not comment on things just because they are not finished. (No feedback during development)

I'm SPECIFICALLY not saying that.

I am saying sure, share your opinions, just be aware that what we see now is a work in progress.

More to the point, I seem to be defending the fact that passing on actual information is an ok thing to do, which is a situation I find to be both odd and infuriating.

There is very rarely a time to criticize someone for saying something that is objectively true, and those rare times absolutely do not happen on a forum about an MMO.

Literally my first post in this thread.

Noaani wrote: »

Telling Intrepid that you think that the thing that they have no intention of keeping is not what you would consider to be good enough is fine.

Again, what the fuck is your problem?

My problem is that it seems you don't want people to criticise intrepid, even though it needs to be pointed out to them. If no one says it and we just let them blindly continue, then how would they know when something may be a little off?

When you work on something everyday for several months and even years, it can be hard to spot things that is bad. That is why they have alphas and betas, so people can test and look at the game and comment, praise and give them valuable criticism.

Yes it's a fact that the game is not done yet, but that is why we should give them the feedback now and not after the game is finished.

Back to my essay example. First draft of an essay is sent to a person for reading, that person will then comment and give valuable feedback. Even on the small things that will to a 99% chance get changed. But the person want the essay to be as good as it can be, so he or she criticise it knowing it will be changed and hopefully better.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

My problem is that it seems you don't want people to criticise intrepid, even though it needs to be pointed out to them. If no one says it and we just let them blindly continue, then how would they know when something may be a little off?

Again, for the THIRD time in a row, I specifically said it is fine - good even - to say what you think about the animations.

Quote me where I said otherwise.

What I have been saying is that while it is fine to say you think the animations need work, do so knowing that Intrepid know this (there is a reason they are hiring animation staff), and also do so knowing that others like myself will follow those comments up with the objective fact that Intrepid have no intention of using the animations as they are now, so that others coming to the thread later on can see that this is the case as they may not be aware of it.

I have also interspersed the above with the occasional analogy or other way to try and help people what is going on - though I probably could have said exactly what I think is going on - which is that the animations as we see them now were not made by the actual animation team, as they have not yet been hired. Rather, the animations as we see them were likely thrown together in order to test the character models (a situation that calls for a large range of movement), and were also likely made by someone familiar with character animation, but not fully proficient in it (likely Bacon, as he is a bit of a jack-of-all-trades).

Assuming this is true, every aspect of the animations we have seen so far will be thrown out when the animation team gets up and running.

Tying that to your essay analogy, you are commenting on the content of the essay when really all you have in front of you is a test page that was printed off while the printer was being set up, and the student hasn't even been enrolled in the paper yet. As I've said though, if you want to complain about that, have at it - just be aware of the parameters around the thing you are complaining about, and be aware that I will remind you of them.

rikardp98

"The issue then is - if you have nothing to compare those animations to, why is the assumption being made that they are not good enough?"

"Right now, people are looking at a sketch of animations and complaining that they are not up to the standard of a finished piece of art.

Of course they aren't."

"While I agree with your general sentiment, I do have to say that at this point in development, that is exactly how they should look."
(From another post about animation).

From what you have written, i get the impression that your only argument that the animations (the style and general direction of the animation) is not perfect is that it's still i alpha. Which is not an argument.

We all know it's in alpha, but that doesn't mean that the general direction if the animation is already laid out on paper. Animators doesn't animate out of their ass, they have guidelines that they follow. And from what I have read, people are worried that these guidelines may be flawed.

So, instead of saying, well animation is good enough and we shouldn't complain since the game is still in alpha, you should add your subjective opinions about the animations add what you would like to see changed or not changed. You should not be here to defend intrepid, but rather to criticise and praise them for what they are doing and showing us.

rikardp98

And what @maouw did was perfect. Instead of starting a new discussion, he linked a previous post and talked about topic in great detail.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

From what you have written, i get the impression that your only argument that the animations (the style and general direction of the animation) is not perfect is that it's still i alpha. Which is not an argument.

If I were to make an argument, that argument would be that Intrepid don't have their animation team on staff yet, so literally nothing we are looking at in terms of animations have any chance of being in the finished game.

I am specifically not pushing that point because that literally kills the possibility of discussion.

While animators do indeed follow guidelines - as is the case for any developer on a project - they only follow those guidelines when they are hired. That step has not yet happened, so the guidelines are likely not even written up yet, let alone being followed.

Also, all three of the quotes of mine above are me framing the point. Not one of them is saying that the person shouldn't share their opinions, just that they should be aware of some of the details about the thing they are sharing an opinion on.

In order, the first quote was pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished animations to finished animations (or unfinished anything to finished anything).

The second was again pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished to finished - this time in the context of an analogy.

The third is again saying that the animations should not look finished at this point in development.

---

What it seems to me is that you aren't actually reading full posts, just select excerpts from them - and are then deciding to form an opinion on them. You seem to think I am saying people shouldn't be sharing their opinion on the animations, despite me saying repeatedly that they should, they just need to be aware of where the game is in development.

rikardp98

Noaani wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

From what you have written, i get the impression that your only argument that the animations (the style and general direction of the animation) is not perfect is that it's still i alpha. Which is not an argument.

If I were to make an argument, that argument would be that Intrepid don't have their animation team on staff yet, so literally nothing we are looking at in terms of animations have any chance of being in the finished game.

I am specifically not pushing that point because that literally kills the possibility of discussion.

While animators do indeed follow guidelines - as is the case for any developer on a project - they only follow those guidelines when they are hired. That step has not yet happened, so the guidelines are likely not even written up yet, let alone being followed.

Also, all three of the quotes of mine above are me framing the point. Not one of them is saying that the person shouldn't share their opinions, just that they should be aware of some of the details about the thing they are sharing an opinion on.

In order, the first quote was pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished animations to finished animations (or unfinished anything to finished anything).

The second was again pointing out that it isn't fair to compare unfinished to finished - this time in the context of an analogy.

The third is again saying that the animations should not look finished at this point in development.

---

What it seems to me is that you aren't actually reading full posts, just select excerpts from them - and are then deciding to form an opinion on them. You seem to think I am saying people shouldn't be sharing their opinion on the animations, despite me saying repeatedly that they should, they just need to be aware of where the game is in development.

I won't disagree with the fact that I sometimes read half of a post or read it "sloppy". But I also think that just saying that criticism is okay but then continue to say that everything is fine since it's in alpha just seems weird to me. It's in alpha since it's not fine/done, even though the developers know it's not done we should still in a respectful manner comment on it and give the feedback.

"that argument would be that Intrepid don't have their animation team on staff yet, so literally nothing we are looking at in terms of animations have any chance of being in the finished game."

This is not an subjective opinion about the animation, it's an objective opinion that everyone agree with.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

But I also think that just saying that criticism is okay but then continue to say that everything is fine since it's in alpha just seems weird to me.

Not as odd as the "I know it's alpha, stop reminding me, I just want to complain about something" that is basically what a good number of posters in these threads want them to be.

Fact is, the game is in alpha, the animations as we see them now are not going to end up in the game, give your feedback as to why you don't like them, know for a fact they will be changed and move on.

rikardp98

Noaani wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

But I also think that just saying that criticism is okay but then continue to say that everything is fine since it's in alpha just seems weird to me.

Not as odd as the "I know it's alpha, stop reminding me, I just want to complain about something" that is basically what a good number of posters in these threads want them to be.

Fact is, the game is in alpha, the animations as we see them now are not going to end up in the game, give your feedback as to why you don't like them, know for a fact they will be changed and move on.

I would say it's more odd to not give feedback on something they have kind alpha. Yes it will be changed, but how it changes is up to de developers, but the developers can be influenced by the community and our feedback that we give.

I agree with you that just saying "the animations are bad" isn't good feedback, but I also think that saying that it's good enough for alpha is also not good feedback

Songcaller

I love the fact that feedback gets sloshed with tons of argumentative posts which waters down the feedback and probably causes the feedback to be lost in a rush of posts. I've given detailed feedback elsewhere and sometimes I paraphrase the feedback into bitesize chunks. I still believe the animations across the board have too many lifts, too static, too long winded and too flamboyant with no sense or purpose. I'm not against Animation Locks per say, but, the Animation Locks need not be 2 or 3 seconds for each move.

A caster will be massacred by a melee (Q Spam) in the current disposition. It is important to create balance between Melee and Ranged but locking Ranged into Long Animations isn't the way to go.

Edit: In some MMOs stuns last 3 seconds. I don't feel a massive urge to use skills equal to a stun. Can't cancel the move, can't animation cancel, can't utilise the full roster unless you're static. It equates to too much Lineage and not enough movement/combat flow.

Noaani

rikardp98 wrote: »

I would say it's more odd to not give feedback on something they have kind alpha.

I never said that people shouldn't.

I said that WHEN they give feedback, they should do so knowing those few objective facts we have talked about, and also that WHEN these threads exist, I and some others will ensure that the threads contain posts pointing those objective facts out for people that are not following the game as closely as some of us, but are reading the threads in question.

I'm not sure how many times I can say that same thing to you. I can't understand how you can read what I have been saying - both me actually saying it and me replying to the misguided complaints about it - and you still not get it through your head that I never once said people shouldn't give their feedback.

Mushin

Bunch of English majors in here with all that writing.
Less is more

Noaani

mushin wrote: »

Bunch of English majors in here with all that writing.
Less is more

This thread doesn't have any overly long posts.

If you aren't willing to read, why are you on a forum where the primary form of communication is text?

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

My view is as follows.

The animations that are currently available are in their very early stages of development.

It is of course important to give feedback on how we would like to see the finished product.

And there is nothing wrong with questioning the basic principles of animation in the first place.

However, it's no use arguing endlessly without the views of the staff at Intrepid Studios.

In conclusion, we've already done enough to raise the issue with Intrepid Studios by posting on this forum, so we'll just have to wait a while.👍️

Mushin

Noaani wrote: »

mushin wrote: »

Bunch of English majors in here with all that writing.
Less is more

This thread doesn't have any overly long posts.

If you aren't willing to read, why are you on a forum where the primary form of communication is text?

well filling up the pages arguing without understanding each other isn't really helping is it.

Noaani

mushin wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mushin wrote: »

Bunch of English majors in here with all that writing.
Less is more

This thread doesn't have any overly long posts.

If you aren't willing to read, why are you on a forum where the primary form of communication is text?

well filling up the pages arguing without understanding each other isn't really helping is it.

I'm not sure if you understand what you're saying.

People are not understanding other people, yet you want people to write less. That makes no sense.

In order to facilitate others understanding you better, you need to offer up more information on your poit. More information means more words. If you write less words, you are offering up less information, and thus are not going to be able to resolve the misunderstanding.

maouw

@Noaani
I think the sentiment is more that a fluid debate or conversation is often full of interjection and interruption. Shorter, bite size posts with a single target allow greater room for these interjections and interruptions to occur (as opposed to a well rationalized monologue with multiple points that you take turns breaking down) and are generally more indicative of a cooperative conversation, and more welcoming to raw thoughts.

It's my observation that many people have disengaged from threads recently because the "debate" was driven toward semantics and proving egos. I encourage you to keep an eye out for this.

(where we're at right now in this thread is dangerously close to that place.)

Noaani

maouw wrote: »

It's my observation that many people have disengaged from threads recently because the "debate" was driven toward semantics and proving egos. I encourage you to keep an eye out for this.

For sure.

Thing is, if someone is going to take a thread in that direction, I'm not going to stop them.

Even in this thread, if you read it you will note that in almost every post in relation to people complaining about others pointing out that the game is still in alpha, I attempt to leave it in a way where people can simply carry on with the discussion at hand if they want to.

It isn't my fault if others aren't taking up my attempts to steer the thread back on topic.

Honestly - and this thread is proof of this in two ways - if people aren't interested in reading, they should just keep the fuck away from text based discussions. People literally have no place in such discussions if they are not willing to actually read. Give your opinion, fine. Don't get in to arguing against an opinion or a post that you haven't even read, because you just look like an actual idiot.

Again, case in point; this thread, where a specific poster is arguing against posts he hasn't even read and looks like an actual idiot because of it..

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