Mandrake wrote: » Ahh yes, combat trackers, otherwise how would control freaks gatekeep other people and e-peen losers get their self-validation? Thank god they don't want them in this game.
Mandrake wrote: » Thank god they don't want trackers in this game and I hope they never do.
Noaani wrote: » Mandrake wrote: » Thank god they don't want trackers in this game and I hope they never do. "They" don't have the choice. I do. Vhaeyne does. Other players do. Even if we didn't have combat trackers, people would still tell you what builds are acceptable, and that your build is shit - the difference is that with a combat tracker, they are likely to be right.
Vhaeyne wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mandrake wrote: » Thank god they don't want trackers in this game and I hope they never do. "They" don't have the choice. I do. Vhaeyne does. Other players do. Even if we didn't have combat trackers, people would still tell you what builds are acceptable, and that your build is shit - the difference is that with a combat tracker, they are likely to be right. Not going to lie. If they are able to do a total prevention of parsers I will at a minimum be theory crafting a lot in the ranger family of classes. Ill use spreadsheets or write my own sim tool if I have to. If the game is worth my time, I am going to put my time into it. I am not going to be playing ranger shooting from the hip.
Vhaeyne wrote: » Mandrake wrote: » Ahh yes, combat trackers, otherwise how would control freaks gatekeep other people and e-peen losers get their self-validation? Thank god they don't want them in this game. You parse low then?
Mandrake wrote: » And there it is, lmao. The typical passive-agressive, condescending strawman BS from generic parsers! Just as the thread title. Anyone who's not obssessed with this crap is automatically a "slacker". LOL.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game. Sure, for some people. Many people enjoy that kind of thing. The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them. As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you). What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play? If you are opting to play at the top end, with 39 other players depending on you, then you should be both willing and happy to do what you can do to pull your weight. What is more fair, one person playing not their favorite subclass, but participating in the content they most enjoy, or 40 people failing at content because one player refuses to pull their weight?In my raids, if you need to change spec/class so that we can kill content, I expect you to. If you do not, you can find another guild/raid. If we do not need tou to change in order to kill the content, why would we ask you to change? I am not a casual player, I am not worried about myself, so this is not me arguing that you are hurting my play experience. I am worried about casuals who just enjoy taking part in the full game, who will get booted from everything they join... This can kill a casual player population in a game like this. And a loss of casual players, would not work well with the node system and how it works. Now the argument here against what I said is.. do not use them if you don't want to. Problem is, even the casual guilds who say they will not use them, will in fact, eventually use them if it is provided in game. Next thing you know, if you are not meta, you are not playing in end game activities. If a casual guild does not have easy access to one (provided in game), they will not use one. And they could play this game ignorant of what a calculator tells them to do and just have fun. Either way, the simple fact is this... there will be DPS meters for this game official or not. If you choose to use one, in whatever form it comes in... I say go for it. I know I will be if I can find one. But to the casual players, it is not fair if one is forced on them.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game. Sure, for some people. Many people enjoy that kind of thing. The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them. As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you). What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play? If you are opting to play at the top end, with 39 other players depending on you, then you should be both willing and happy to do what you can do to pull your weight. What is more fair, one person playing not their favorite subclass, but participating in the content they most enjoy, or 40 people failing at content because one player refuses to pull their weight?In my raids, if you need to change spec/class so that we can kill content, I expect you to. If you do not, you can find another guild/raid. If we do not need tou to change in order to kill the content, why would we ask you to change?
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game. Sure, for some people. Many people enjoy that kind of thing. The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them. As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you). What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play?
Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game. Sure, for some people. Many people enjoy that kind of thing. The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them. As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you).
maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game.
Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system.
maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar.
Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing.
maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts.
Noaani wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Sounds like you haven't played against a rank 1 team in highly competitive 10v10 PvP Indeed I haven't. While I do enjoy open world PvP, arenas have never been my thing - or any ranked PvP for that matter. It may well be that there is a desire to look at a combat tracker in such a situation, I am not qualified to argue the point either way.
Saedu wrote: » Sounds like you haven't played against a rank 1 team in highly competitive 10v10 PvP
Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game. Sure, for some people. Many people enjoy that kind of thing. The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them. As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you). What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play? If you are opting to play at the top end, with 39 other players depending on you, then you should be both willing and happy to do what you can do to pull your weight. What is more fair, one person playing not their favorite subclass, but participating in the content they most enjoy, or 40 people failing at content because one player refuses to pull their weight?In my raids, if you need to change spec/class so that we can kill content, I expect you to. If you do not, you can find another guild/raid. If we do not need tou to change in order to kill the content, why would we ask you to change? I am not a casual player, I am not worried about myself, so this is not me arguing that you are hurting my play experience. I am worried about casuals who just enjoy taking part in the full game, who will get booted from everything they join... This can kill a casual player population in a game like this. And a loss of casual players, would not work well with the node system and how it works. Now the argument here against what I said is.. do not use them if you don't want to. Problem is, even the casual guilds who say they will not use them, will in fact, eventually use them if it is provided in game. Next thing you know, if you are not meta, you are not playing in end game activities. If a casual guild does not have easy access to one (provided in game), they will not use one. And they could play this game ignorant of what a calculator tells them to do and just have fun. Either way, the simple fact is this... there will be DPS meters for this game official or not. If you choose to use one, in whatever form it comes in... I say go for it. I know I will be if I can find one. But to the casual players, it is not fair if one is forced on them. WoW has them and WoW has more casuals than any other MMO. Seems this argument is inaccurate based on the available data.
Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » Noaani wrote: » maouw wrote: » - In gaming, you can still beat a boss without a DPS meter and that in itself is a test of sorts. Not if said boss is tuned to not allow for underperformance at all, and such encounters do indeed exist. Without a combat tracker, you dont even know what underperforming is - you have no way of knowing. This is a stretch Noaani - in most games you can tell when you are under-performing, even in games like Monster Hunter where the boss has no HP bar. All you know in games like this is if you are doing well enough for other players to be happy with you. If the developers of any game where players are not using a combat tracker decided they wanted to push an encounter to the limit of what is possible with their combat system, players will state the encounter is impossible. So, developers don't do that. They develop to displayed player ability, not to potential ability of the classes/combat system. I don't deny that. I'm saying you're engineering the fun out of the game. Sure, for some people. Many people enjoy that kind of thing. The good thing about a raid though, you only need two or three people to actually use them. As long as the rest of the raid are willing to make improvements to their performance as needed, then all is good (you should not be playing cooperatively with others if you are not willing to improve when an improvement is presented to you). What if that improvement was to change your secondary archetype and weapon used, but you really enjoy the one you are playing now? Why should the way you enjoy playing determine if you can actually play? If you are opting to play at the top end, with 39 other players depending on you, then you should be both willing and happy to do what you can do to pull your weight. What is more fair, one person playing not their favorite subclass, but participating in the content they most enjoy, or 40 people failing at content because one player refuses to pull their weight?In my raids, if you need to change spec/class so that we can kill content, I expect you to. If you do not, you can find another guild/raid. If we do not need tou to change in order to kill the content, why would we ask you to change? I am not a casual player, I am not worried about myself, so this is not me arguing that you are hurting my play experience. I am worried about casuals who just enjoy taking part in the full game, who will get booted from everything they join... This can kill a casual player population in a game like this. And a loss of casual players, would not work well with the node system and how it works. Now the argument here against what I said is.. do not use them if you don't want to. Problem is, even the casual guilds who say they will not use them, will in fact, eventually use them if it is provided in game. Next thing you know, if you are not meta, you are not playing in end game activities. If a casual guild does not have easy access to one (provided in game), they will not use one. And they could play this game ignorant of what a calculator tells them to do and just have fun. Either way, the simple fact is this... there will be DPS meters for this game official or not. If you choose to use one, in whatever form it comes in... I say go for it. I know I will be if I can find one. But to the casual players, it is not fair if one is forced on them. WoW has them and WoW has more casuals than any other MMO. Seems this argument is inaccurate based on the available data. Having only invested maybe 40 minutes of my life to WoW, I cannot speak about the game at all... but I can ask questions. Did WoW have DPS meters at launch? Or did they come years after the game was launched?
Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics...
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... Most players in WoW didnt have any MMO experience.
Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too".
Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right?
Nagash wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... Most players in WoW didnt have any MMO experience. There fixed it
Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do.
Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do. The game referenced doesn't matter in this point. The point is you can't assume all thr mechanics in a game will follow real like mechanics... especially when talking about a class that throws fireballs!!! You may disagree with having combat trackers in a game, but there are still pros/cons either way and one pro is that a combat tracker can eliminate the risk of false assumptions like this.
Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Saedu wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » No offense here... but bringing fire builds to a fire dungeon is a bad idea, and is usually known by any player with a tad bit of history in MMO mechanics... or life for that mater. Fighting Fire with Fire in a MMO is not a thing usually. DPS meters should not be needed for common sense, and sounds like your guild leader might have been ignorant in that fact. Cannot hate the person, maybe they just did not know or care. Either way... ignorance in common MMO mechanics is a common thing, and usually gets figured out quickly without a DPS meter. In the end, I get it... they help fine tune builds or find builds that out perform other builds. But the last thing you want is a game with 64 classes that only utilizes 12 of them, at least I do. Lyrics from a band I love say this.. "Don’t let their school make a fool of you. Because the teachers may be fools too". We had a hunch it was suboptimal, but not right away. We had no idea how bad it was without combat trackers. Also, this is not necessarily common sense. Blizzard moved away from this design due to the inherent imbalances it introduced to certain class specs. (They chose to reduce immersion in order to better balance gameplay). For example, when they released Firelands (which ironically enough has the same end boss as the first raid coming back) there was no reduced damage for fire damage. I'm not saying Blizzards decision to do this was right or wrong, but it was in alignment with the vision of their game and it shows you cannot always make assumptions like this. Developers will choose to sacrifice immersion/realism if it aligns better to the vision if their game. I guess this is just more justification for needing combat trackers right? Nope lol... Combat trackers based on WoW's use of it does not justify it in any other game. Lineage 2, where this game draws a ton of its core game play from, did not use them, and we did just fine. Trial and error was enough to figure out what to do, and what not to do. The game referenced doesn't matter in this point. The point is you can't assume all thr mechanics in a game will follow real like mechanics... especially when talking about a class that throws fireballs!!! You may disagree with having combat trackers in a game, but there are still pros/cons either way and one pro is that a combat tracker can eliminate the risk of false assumptions like this. Playing the game with trial and error can do the same. Just takes a little bit longer, but sooner or later players will figure it out.
