maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

So when a boss needs to be killed inside a certain time period and that is the only requirement then the boss is complex and not simple?

That sounds like a boss designed specifically for combat trackers.

On the total polar opposite - if you dont have tools to verify the effectivity of builds then you go with those builds that got proven inside an actual raid. This makes going outside of the meta incredibly harder.

Nope. It makes it more likely the FOTM meta is bullshit that can be disregarded. Especially in Ashes class design.

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

So when a boss needs to be killed inside a certain time period and that is the only requirement then the boss is complex and not simple?

That sounds like a boss designed specifically for combat trackers.

Really? To me that sounds like the definition of old school MMO raid encounters

On the total polar opposite - if you dont have tools to verify the effectivity of builds then you go with those builds that got proven inside an actual raid. This makes going outside of the meta incredibly harder.

Nope. It makes it more likely the FOTM meta is bullshit that can be disregarded. Especially in Ashes class design.

Throwing more variables into the table just means more confusion so ppl will cling harder to the meta instead breaking off of it

You know when you watch a youtube video where a guy showcases a build that kills the same mob you are killing in half the time then most people just say fk it and respec

akabear

The last discussion on this topic had a straw poll that included 140 odd player feedback, which is far more representative of general player sentiment than limited number of the prolific writers in these forums comments might suggest

The result was something like

56% no, they do not want combat trackers in game
20% undecided
Of the remaining half wanted one and the other half wanted a limited one.

So it appears in the forums there is a vocal minority that are not representative of the majority.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Players absolutely will have a combat tracker, and so will complete the games initial content in that same amount of time.

For me this is reason enough to no have a Combat Tracker. Even if the game ships with one, I am 100% sure it won't be enough.
People will want more, and will still have another combat tracker outside of the game.

So having or not having a DPS meter ensures the same result, might as well make it harder like Steven wants.

If you have combat trackers, and the developers know this, they can design the content with that in mind.

Assuming the combat tracker offers up all needed information, there is nothing left to be gained by having an additional combat tracker.

I definitely believe he meant that players would start making play assist addons that play in part instead of you

The development of something like this does not rely on anything at all to do with a combat tracker.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Players absolutely will have a combat tracker, and so will complete the games initial content in that same amount of time.

For me this is reason enough to no have a Combat Tracker. Even if the game ships with one, I am 100% sure it won't be enough.
People will want more, and will still have another combat tracker outside of the game.

So having or not having a DPS meter ensures the same result, might as well make it harder like Steven wants.

If you have combat trackers, and the developers know this, they can design the content with that in mind.

Assuming the combat tracker offers up all needed information, there is nothing left to be gained by having an additional combat tracker.

And do you know what information is this? Is there a blue print IS can follow to make sure everyone is happy? I mean, people can't even agree on what a Combat Tracker is.

It is every ability used by players and the target, and the results of said ability use.

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

The last discussion on this topic had a straw poll that included 140 odd player feedback, which is far more representative of general player sentiment than limited number of the prolific writers in these forums comments might suggest

The result was something like
56% no, they do not want combat trackers in game

20% undecided

Of the remaining half wanted one and the other half wanted a limited one.

So it appears in the forums there is a vocal minority that are not representative of the majority.

Player run polls are never of any value.

In order to get an accurate result, you would also need to include how much money Intrepid would need to spend to do a half decent job at trying to keep trackers out of the game on an ongoing basis, and exactly what content it is that this money would be used on instead.

As such, a poll about combat trackers should be "would you rather have combat trackers and xyz content, or fewer people using combat trackers and no xyz content", as that really is what it boils down to.

Tragnar

akabear wrote: »

The last discussion on this topic had a straw poll that included 140 odd player feedback, which is far more representative of general player sentiment than limited number of the prolific writers in these forums comments might suggest

The result was something like
56% no, they do not want combat trackers in game

20% undecided

Of the remaining half wanted one and the other half wanted a limited one.

So it appears in the forums there is a vocal minority that are not representative of the majority.

Forum posters are not a good representation of the actual playerbase. I know this might hurt, but it is true - a lot of ppl here on forums are hurt from playing other MMOs and most of them had only negative experiences with meters. That's like taking polls in the reclamation department in a store

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

Really? To me that sounds like the definition of old school MMO raid encounters

If all you have to do is kill within a time frame - no need for trial and error.

Throwing more variables into the table just means more confusion so ppl will cling harder to the meta instead breaking off of it.

You know when you watch a youtube video where a guy showcases a build that kills the same mob you are killing in half the time then most people just say fk it and respec

No combat tracker makes finding a must have meta more difficult...and more difficult to prove the assertion that the FOTM is the most viable truly comports with reality.
A guy showcasing a build that kills the same mob in half the time doesn't mean you have to respec exactly the same. I don't agree that that one strategy necessarily is the best or even the FOTM - it's just one strategy that is better than yours was.

If people are relying on YouTube - we definitely don't need combat trackers.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

No combat tracker makes finding a must have meta more difficult.

The "must have" aspect of a meta - other than at the very top end of the game where you have no experience and thus are in no position to talk - is a function of player desire, not of statistical necessity.

Basically, players will have a meta, a combat tracker means that meta is more likely to be good.

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Really? To me that sounds like the definition of old school MMO raid encounters

If all you have to do is kill within a time frame - no need for trial and error.

Yes - and that is what oldschool MMO encounters were about. The only trial and error was about learning to play the game by yourself - you dont have that today - you get free education on how to play any popular game for free

Throwing more variables into the table just means more confusion so ppl will cling harder to the meta instead breaking off of it.

You know when you watch a youtube video where a guy showcases a build that kills the same mob you are killing in half the time then most people just say fk it and respec

No combat tracker makes finding a meta more difficult.
And more difficult to prove the FOTM being the most viable comports with reality.
A guy showcasing a build that kills the same mob in half the time doesn't mean you have to respec exactly the same. And, if people are relying on YouTube - we definitely don't need combat trackers.

meta is found almost instantly - the problem is that without meters improving, enriching, revolutionizing the meta is much harder.

And with the hypothetical that no meter exists for ashes once it is live ;-) then ppl will use any common method to measure a kill speed for something that has the most amount of health and the builds will be compared in that way - if it comes to this primitive stage

And you can bet that the drive to find the best builds will be big, because who doesnt want to clickbait the shit out of youtube to show that their raid cleartime is just running straight ahead with 30s pauses to demolish the boss.

if the meta build is "only" 5% stronger than average build then the whole 40man raid is as strong as the "average" 42man raid

however i've never seen top meta build in any hyperoptimised build mmo be below 20% stronger than the average ones - this alone brings a full 40man raid of top meta specs on par with a 48man average raid

and you can bet that with the amount of additional customization through a ton of augments that were spoken about so heavily will in my opinion be way bigger than the 20%

I would bet real money that 40man raid of top players with top meta builds will be way stronger than 100 average players that raid

Ironhammer

At this point it's pretty commonly accepted that meters have a negative impact on enjoying the game, personally it's not really the toxcity the concerns me, I'm a competitive player and I don't mind that but it's inarguable that DPS meters have caused peoples minds to stop focusing on enjoying the game and focus purely on min/maxing performance. I'm not really of the mind set that E-sportsification is the way to take MMORPGs.

When ever I play an MMO where damage logs are present I know I find myself way more concerned with maximizing my rotation than actually enjoying the company of the people i'm with or atmosphere and mechanics of the dungeon, it turns it into a rat race and I think toxcity is the least of the problems damage logs create really.

Tragnar

Why are damage numbers being shown at all then? Meters only do things faster, but are not required for precise evaluation of builds

Noaani

Ironhammer wrote: »

At this point it's pretty commonly accepted that meters have a negative impact on enjoying the game

No it isn't.

You need look no further than this thread to see many people wanting them.

Ironhammer

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

At this point it's pretty commonly accepted that meters have a negative impact on enjoying the game

No it isn't.

You need look no further than this thread to see many people wanting them.

"many people" There aren't even that many people in this threads entirety, this is but a small echo chamber with some reflection of a larger population.

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

Why are damage numbers being shown at all then? Meters only do things faster, but are not required for precise evaluation of builds

There will be a combat log for individual players. I don't know that they've said it will be visible during combat.

Noaani

Ironhammer wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

At this point it's pretty commonly accepted that meters have a negative impact on enjoying the game

No it isn't.

You need look no further than this thread to see many people wanting them.

"many people" There aren't even that many people in this threads entirety, this is but a small echo chamber with some reflection of a larger population.

Sure thing, bud.

Either way, your statement that it is commonly accepted that combat trackers have a negative impact on enjoying the game is false.

Some people may have that opinion, but it is not commonly accepted.

Ironhammer

Do we even know if rotations are going to be that complex? I'm not sure how many skills we're up to last I checked it was 12? I think. Idk if this will need to be worried about to the extent it is in instanced PvE driven MMORPGS. May need to be worrying more about another group jumping you than your performance in the dungeon

Noaani

Ironhammer wrote: »

Do we even know if rotations are going to be that complex?

Games with rotations are games for children.

Yes, that means WoW.

Ironhammer

Noaani wrote: »

Ironhammer wrote: »

Do we even know if rotations are going to be that complex?

Games with rotations are games for children.

Yes, that means WoW.

hey finally something we agree on. Well except for the fact that statistics show WoW is for old people lmfao.

Plutar

It is truly great to see the passion people have for this upcoming, and in my humble opinion Highly Anticipated, MMORPG.

I have been following the dps/CombatTracker thread(s) for sometime now, and feel a crucial aspect is being overlooked by some, and perhaps unknown to others. While users, such as Noaani, have alluded to this with notions of faster progression, and knowledge of player(s) and target(s) ability usage, I thought it would be beneficial to clearly state what advantages this provides to those using such trackers, and how this can detract from the overall experience for all players, not just those utilizing these tools.

Knowledge of Boss Abilities/Mechanics:
With a CombatTracker, in one pull of a boss you can learn all of the abilities used in that phase, the damage of the abilities used, the intervals in which these abilities are used, phase-shift thresholds, etc. All of this without having to actually pay attention or coordinate your raid. You simply survive for long enough, export the data, and determine when defensive cooldowns need to be used for the raid, when the burst damage periods are best utilized, how many healers you numerically need to survive, and thus how many DPS you can stack to potentially negate an entire phase of the encounter.

Without the Tracker, your raid is reliant upon individuals coming together and describing what was seen, what seemed to do the most damage to them, how others avoided it, creating a rough strategy and iterating pull after pull until either you nail it, or notice a mechanic that was wreaking havoc and adjust from there.

So, what gives, why would anyone want to spend MORE time on a game they play for FUN, right?
Well, I'll answer anyway!

The Raid isn't the Raid Leader. The Raid isn't the Guild Leader. The Raid isn't the Top DPSer. The Raid isn't the Top Healer. The Raid isn't anyone person. The Raid is everyone, working together, putting their skillsets to use for the greater good. When you break everything down into raw numbers, you take away from what truly matters, from the reason we all started playing games in the first place. The reason we all joined Guilds to begin with. It is to be part of something bigger, to accomplish something truly great. Something we could never have done on our own.

When you have one or two people telling everyone exactly what they have to do at every point in a fight, down to the exact build they need to be, the exact armor they must be wearing, to the mount they have to ride in on, this is not a Guild. This is not a Raid. This is exploitation of peoples time and interest to further ones own goals thinly veiled as leadership. The Top Guild on any AoC server should be the Guild that is best able to work with itself, and others, to overcome the insurmountable. Not some spreadsheet-jockey that sucks the soul out of the encounter.

This is an MMORPG, Emphasis on the first 3 Letters: MMO. When you actually have people collaborating, playing together, devising new strategies, rather than just reading what's best from some bored data analyst, you've made a truly wonderful game worth promoting and protecting, even against those who have brazenly said they would use tools to gain an advantage even if AoC made it against TOS. If you're one of those people, you might not think much of it, but you could be party to why many have left the genre to begin with. It's all about WE, not ME.

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