Ironhammer wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ironhammer wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ironhammer wrote: » Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it? No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on. Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons. You know that add ons have negative effects on the health of an MMORPG, yet you're still promoting them. Keep shilling dude, how much you getting paid? So, this is a conversation I have had numerous times on these forums. First of all, I am not asking for an add on. I am asking for a combat tracker - preferably one built in to the game. Second, not all add ons are bad. It is bad if the game opens up the API like WoW did, but that isn't going to happen in any other game. Third, I am not shilling anything. If I were shilling something, it would probably not be a piece of software that is free to use. Okay, keep shilling man.
Noaani wrote: » Ironhammer wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ironhammer wrote: » Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it? No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on. Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons. You know that add ons have negative effects on the health of an MMORPG, yet you're still promoting them. Keep shilling dude, how much you getting paid? So, this is a conversation I have had numerous times on these forums. First of all, I am not asking for an add on. I am asking for a combat tracker - preferably one built in to the game. Second, not all add ons are bad. It is bad if the game opens up the API like WoW did, but that isn't going to happen in any other game. Third, I am not shilling anything. If I were shilling something, it would probably not be a piece of software that is free to use.
Ironhammer wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ironhammer wrote: » Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it? No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on. Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons. You know that add ons have negative effects on the health of an MMORPG, yet you're still promoting them. Keep shilling dude, how much you getting paid?
Noaani wrote: » Ironhammer wrote: » Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it? No, I expect you to admit when you are clearly, blatantly and demonstrably wrong on a point you were very adamant on. Also, ACT isn't mine, I have no affiliation with it, I use their icon as my forum sig for reasons.
Ironhammer wrote: » Are you expecting me to be ashamed of it?
Ironhammer wrote: » Keep pulling shit out of your ass man.
Ironhammer wrote: » DPS meters only exist in WoW and TESO.
Noaani wrote: » this
rikardp98 wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS! If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. This is 100% accurate as a statement. The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it. Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes. I think there's a correction to be made here. Steven dislikes the idea of combat trackers, not only because he believes it breeds toxicity (which you can debate), but because it would then allow for other add-ons. Other add-ons can then be used for less than legit practices such as botting and other forms of automations. Or at the very least, that opening the door to that possibility would make it harder on the dev team to monitor and police them, if they believe it breaks terms of service, or just are "unethical" to the MMO experience. For me the difference between an addon and a combat tracker is that, an addon you use during combat to make it easier, while a combat tracker is used after the encounter to get a better understanding what actually happened.
Asgerr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS! If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. This is 100% accurate as a statement. The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it. Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes. I think there's a correction to be made here. Steven dislikes the idea of combat trackers, not only because he believes it breeds toxicity (which you can debate), but because it would then allow for other add-ons. Other add-ons can then be used for less than legit practices such as botting and other forms of automations. Or at the very least, that opening the door to that possibility would make it harder on the dev team to monitor and police them, if they believe it breaks terms of service, or just are "unethical" to the MMO experience.
Noaani wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS! If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. This is 100% accurate as a statement. The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it. Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes.
rikardp98 wrote: » PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS! If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about.
Dygz wrote: » I don't agree with your interpretation of what "Oh! We need to do exactly this." means. To me, that refers to when people says, "Your DPS is low!! It needs to be xx!" "Your healing is supposed to be at xx! Slacker!"
Asgerr wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Asgerr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » PEOPLE STILL USE TRIAL AND ERROR IN MMORPGS THAT HAVE COMBAT TRACKERS! If you think combat trackers tells you what you exactly need to do, then you don't know what you are talking about. This is 100% accurate as a statement. The part about this that has me concerned is not that Dygz believes combat trackers remove trial and error, but that Steven believes it. Such a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay does not bode well for that section of gameplay in Ashes. I think there's a correction to be made here. Steven dislikes the idea of combat trackers, not only because he believes it breeds toxicity (which you can debate), but because it would then allow for other add-ons. Other add-ons can then be used for less than legit practices such as botting and other forms of automations. Or at the very least, that opening the door to that possibility would make it harder on the dev team to monitor and police them, if they believe it breaks terms of service, or just are "unethical" to the MMO experience. For me the difference between an addon and a combat tracker is that, an addon you use during combat to make it easier, while a combat tracker is used after the encounter to get a better understanding what actually happened. Slightly incorrect I would say: The only difference is that a combat tracker is an addon. But not all addons are combat trackers. Simple as that. You can have addons who simply alter the UI, or organise information differently on screen. Of course some of those, as is the case with macros not being accepted in the game at this time, can be used for what you indicate: making a challenge, overly easier. We, however, do agree that simplifying a fight so that you can almost do things on autopilot with the aid of addons, goes against the spirit of the game. So I am in favor of having the option of combat trackers, but agree that having them via addons, can open the door to other issues. What I think would be better is having an in-game one, but then you'd need to debate Steven on the issue of toxicity.
rikardp98 wrote: » Do not change this in to a definition argument again xD 1) We need to do this, means that the whole group needs to do something 2) You need to do this, means a specific person need to do something. "Your DPS is low!! It needs ti be xx" falls under 2). The comment from Steven falls under 1). Still, my points still stands to show that the three comments from Steven is based on, as Noaani said, a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay.
Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Do not change this in to a definition argument again xD 1) We need to do this, means that the whole group needs to do something 2) You need to do this, means a specific person need to do something. "Your DPS is low!! It needs ti be xx" falls under 2). The comment from Steven falls under 1). Still, my points still stands to show that the three comments from Steven is based on, as Noaani said, a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay. I don't know what you mean by definition - it's a sentence, not a word. I don't agree with your interpretations of the sentence you quoted. That's a disagreement; not an argument.
rikardp98 wrote: » Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Do not change this in to a definition argument again xD 1) We need to do this, means that the whole group needs to do something 2) You need to do this, means a specific person need to do something. "Your DPS is low!! It needs ti be xx" falls under 2). The comment from Steven falls under 1). Still, my points still stands to show that the three comments from Steven is based on, as Noaani said, a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay. I don't know what you mean by definition - it's a sentence, not a word. I don't agree with your interpretations of the sentence you quoted. That's a disagreement; not an argument. So no comment to the statement about the combat tracker?
Dygz wrote: » What statement do you want me to comment on?
Dygz wrote: » You lost me. I have no clue what you're even talking about at this point.
rikardp98 wrote: » So no comment to the statement about the combat tracker?
rikardp98 wrote: » Still, my points still stands to show that the three comments from Steven is based on, as Noaani said, a fundamental misunderstanding of an entire section of MMO gameplay.
Dygz wrote: » [ But, you can just look at what Steven's quotes to see what his philosophy is:STEVEN: First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons. Which means he wants players to play the game the devs designed rather than finding ways to make it easier to speed through the content.
STEVEN: Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group. Back in the day, we used trial and error. Which is not as quick and efficient as relying on the mechanical bullshit of combat trackers, but brings us closer to an RP experience. That's also why he's trying to get away from using numbers to indicate the health of combat targets in UI and instead display health decay as nameplate decay. Focusing on discussing the characters' perspectives of what abilities were used - describing what the abilities that were seen or the abilities that could be used, rather than discussing DPS, brings us closer to RP.
STEVEN: From a roleplay perspective, we want people to be in-depth with their characters. I don't think Steven is talking about this in RP in the form of making up your own dialogues with NPCs.
Tragnar wrote: » Your interpretation leaves out the only important part - that is he wants to ship the game completed - so players don't need to solve game problems with addons
Back in the day encounters were stupid simple so the only true mechanic was beating a DPS check - that is just bad encounter design If you can't create interesting mechanics that have nothing to do with dps checks then i'm sorry, but you suck at design.
he wants people to create their own builds and have extremely wide variety of build options - funny thing is that combat logs actually help create wider variety of builds, because it is actually easier to experiment with the builds - if you make it harder then you just narrow the meta instead of enriching it
Recluse74 wrote: » There are two views on why combat trackers should not be allowed.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » There are two views on why combat trackers should not be allowed. These are views that have been discussed in the larger thread. I don't think they are the major factors, but they are definitely reasons. To me, the idea that a combat tracker will get players though content faster is actually a reason to have one built in to the game. Players absolutely will have a combat tracker, and so will complete the games initial content in that same amount of time. Intrepid can say they don't want combat trackers, and can even ban accounts seen to be using them, but that won't stop - or even really slow - their use. It will just mean people don't openly talk about them. If that combat tracker is built in to the game, it means the content we have at the start can be tuned for combat tracker use during beta. This is the only way to slow down the rate that players complete content - design it with combat trackers that players will be using in mind.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » There are two views on why combat trackers should not be allowed. These are views that have been discussed in the larger thread. I don't think they are the major factors, but they are definitely reasons. To me, the idea that a combat tracker will get players though content faster is actually a reason to have one built in to the game. Players absolutely will have a combat tracker, and so will complete the games initial content in that same amount of time. Intrepid can say they don't want combat trackers, and can even ban accounts seen to be using them, but that won't stop - or even really slow - their use. It will just mean people don't openly talk about them. If that combat tracker is built in to the game, it means the content we have at the start can be tuned for combat tracker use during beta. This is the only way to slow down the rate that players complete content - design it with combat trackers that players will be using in mind. Why do you even respond anymore? You just basically said the same exact thing I did.... but tried to spin it as I was wrong for what I said. I told myself I was never going to respond to you again, so now that I lied to myself, I am going to lie to you.. I hope you are successful in AoC.
