Items should not have level restrictions

I feel it's not immersive that I can't wear a helmet because my level isn't high enough. It makes no sense, same with armor. It goes to the body, what else do you need to know?

That being said, I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills. Maybe a helmet is too heavy, same with armor. Think of it as D&D/Pathfinder where you need a minimum in Strength to wear some armor.

It'd make more sense to have items are locked behind stats than in levels, and the minimum at certain levels so it doesn't lock players out from using them any equipment, weapons, etc. It'd be more immersive and it'd make more sense that you can't use this sword because your strength isn't enough, you can't truly use a rapier because you lack the agility. And instead of just unable to equip them, they just don't benefit you, they either do less damage or you move very slow.

EDIT: Like what is a level? It doesn't make sense. So having a better lore friendly why we can't make use of weapons and gear. It would make more sense to have something like tuning to essence within armor and weapons. Like what we can tolerate or not, it means we can't wear them as it could damage us or we can't just make the most out of it.

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Wandering Mist

ViBunja wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

As I said in my recent video on this topic, the ideas put forth in the OP are interesting but would require Intrepid to completely change how players get stronger. I personally feel it's not worth the time and effort to redesign the entire progression system just because having gear bound to character levels breaks the immersion.

There will always be a disconnect between immersion and gameplay, this is expected of any game. There have been a couple of games like Red Dead Redemption 2 that have tried to add in more immersion to the game, but then you take a huge hit in terms of gameplay.

Or like how latisullivan said, Lineage did this, WoW had a similar system when it came to weapons which I had fun, it was a mastery system where you have to practice until you could use weapons and every time you level up you had to increase your mastery or else you will be missing often. It's not something new, if anything is more old school for MMO's.

Alright, let's talk about WoW's old weapon mastery system. Personally I hated it, and it's one of those things where immersion gets in the way of gameplay. Yes it makes sense that if you've only used a sword and shield, and you suddenly pick up a 2-handed axe, you'll be less good with the axe.

That said, it felt really REALLY bad to get a new weapon in the middle of a dungeon that you then couldn't use until you had grinded against low level mobs for hours first. Getting a new weapon should be an exciting and cool experience, not a "well shit, can't use this yet" type of deal.

And don't even get me started on the Kael'thas fight which forced the tanks to have to skill up their dagger skill in order to use the legendary dagger to use in that one single fight. Seriously, who thought that was a good idea????

Anyway, I'm glad they got rid of the weapon mastery mechanic in WoW.

It was one of the reasons why I started to dislike WoW. I liked that old mastery system. It was immersive, it was fun and I believe most people who played back then responded negatively at the changes, it was the casuals who wanted that change. I like getting rewarded for my efforts. It's one of the reasons why WoW started going down to the shit hole, because it had rewards through putting effort.

Not entirely true, when I was handed a 9 mm and learned how to use it was fun, but when my dad let me shoot his 45, it felt weird and I had to practice, it was a huge difference. I find it exciting to learn something new I don't know and master it. This was part of the old magic from MMO's. Picking something and being a master at that at the get go is not only not immersive, but not rewarding at all.

As someone said, "you can't just be deserving, you have to be worthy". This is something MMO's lack nowadays, we get things too easy, things get replaced too easy. The game needs to slow down again, the game needs to give us something, but we need to be worthy to use it.

I did think it was a good idea to always master all weapons you could us, it was not that hard to do, it was time consuming, but what were you supposed to do with your free time?

So here we get into the issue of player mastery vs character mastery. Let's take your gun example. You're right that there is a learning curve when switching to a different weapon because they are physically different. Even if the 2 guns are similar they behave differently and have nuances to them that set them apart.

But that's not how things work in WoW. For the most part there is no physical difference between a 1-handed sword and a 1-handed axe. In fact, assuming both weapons have the same stats, they act exactly the same. Sure your character might not have the skill of the axe, but you, the player do.

Imagine if the .45 felt and fired identical to the 9mm, but for some unknown reason you were less accurate with the .45 just because you hadn't fired that gun as much. Would that feel right to you?

I agree that more games should make you work at things more, but you do this through player mastery, NOT character mastery. If I'm playing Dark Souls and my character has a greatsword, then I pick up a set of twin-blades, I will not be as good at using the twin-blades purely because they are very different to use compared to the greatsword. It will take me time to learn the range and attack speed of these weapons, which is all down to player mastery.

TLDR: WoW's weapon mastery system was all about character mastery (which is very artificial) when it should instead be about player mastery.

Dygz

ViBunja wrote: »

They did said they want the game to be realistic, they could probably even add age to our characters.

What is the dev quote that states the devs want the game to be "realistic"?
The devs could add aging to our characters, but it's highly unlikely. We would have heard about that already.

ViBunja wrote: »

So I doubt age and levels could be linked together. It's more like Wisdom and Intelligence, the reason we learn is not because of what we experience and know, but rather of what we could comprehend. Like you said, 40 years old selling hot dogs or being 25 years old as a chef. Not because you have the knowledge doesn't mean you comprehend it, knowledge is only useful once we comprehend it and not always because one live longer means one experience more things or comprehended more things. And that's it, I didn't thought about it, but the skill I was missing is comprehension. If we comprehend the arts of using armor, because there is a difference taking damage and knowing how to take damage.

There could be a game like that, but that's not Ashes.
What you describe in this post sounds closer to Chronicles of Elyria.

Dygz

ViBunja wrote: »

I mean, you are actually agreeing with my statement that there needs to be restrictions to items, but you clearly said I don't want them. So I can safely assumed you didn't read what I wrote and it's not because you don't agree with what I stated, but you don't agree with me that you didn't read my text.

I mean, I actually disagree with your statements and suggestions, so I can safely assume you did not read what I wrote.

Mistrix

This is MMORGP, items should have restriction by lvl. What will happen in 1 month?
People will get max lvl 80, and then buy 80 lvl items and send/trade to their alt lvl 1? and what will happen? 1000-5000 damage sword on lvl 1 warrior instead of 3-7? No. This is garbage idea. It would make sense in RGP or solo lore game idk.

Ramirez

That just work in full loot pvp/sandbox games without progress lvl like albion, eve and MO, you need ways to constantly lose your gear and aoc don´t work like that , is more themepark

ViBunja

Dygz wrote: »

What is the dev quote that states the devs want the game to be "realistic"?

We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there. – Jeffrey Bard

Dygz wrote: »

There could be a game like that, but that's not Ashes.
What you describe in this post sounds closer to Chronicles of Elyria.

It could be Ashes, but you can't say it isn't Ashes.

Dygz wrote: »

I mean, I actually disagree with your statements and suggestions, so I can safely assume you did not read what I wrote.

You agree we want restrictions on items, but you claim I don't?

Jiraiya

ViBunja wrote: »

I feel it's not immersive that I can't wear a helmet because my level isn't high enough. It makes no sense, same with armor. It goes to the body, what else do you need to know?

That being said, I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills. Maybe a helmet is too heavy, same with armor. Think of it as D&D/Pathfinder where you need a minimum in Strength to wear some armor.

It'd make more sense to have items are locked behind stats than in levels, and the minimum at certain levels so it doesn't lock players out from using them any equipment, weapons, etc. It'd be more immersive and it'd make more sense that you can't use this sword because your strength isn't enough, you can't truly use a rapier because you lack the agility. And instead of just unable to equip them, they just don't benefit you, they either do less damage or you move very slow.

EDIT: Like what is a level? It doesn't make sense. So having a better lore friendly why we can't make use of weapons and gear. It would make more sense to have something like tuning to essence within armor and weapons. Like what we can tolerate or not, it means we can't wear them as it could damage us or we can't just make the most out of it.

I understand what you are saying. But item's should 100% have level requirements, in my opinion. What make's it not feel immersive because you don't have the level required to wear a helmet/armor? It's a cool idea about items being restricted to "stats" but stats come with levels. I get what you're saying about how it would be cool if you needed the agility to wield a rapier or the strength to wield a sword but at the end of the day - those are still "levels" in their own sense. We are just changing the terminology if we are moving it to stat requirements. Example - this rapier can only be wielded if you have 80 in your agility stat. You can only get your agility stat to 80 once you hit 70 Strength and 70 Stamina. You can't technically wield the rapier until you "level" your character up.

My other thought, where is the prestige in high lvl PVE item's and drops if there aren't any level requirements for people that have leveled their characters up?

Onto your last question - "Like what is a level". Here is the link to the wiki on it: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling. There are many links on this page that go into more detail on how leveling works and it's many characteristics. I hope this helped

Jirue

Nagash wrote: »

but the problem rises with how else are you meant to get these skills/stats without levelling up?

Side thought came to my mind when reading this. I'm not suggesting at all that this should be the way AoC should be designed, but you could have systems other than leveling that award stat points.

Completing certain quests or conditions (kill X number of rabbits to get a title which gives more dexterity, one-shot a certain boss, ect.), eating different foods (either one time award, deteriorates over time, or diminishing return for eating the same food), gaining more strength points as you use melee attacks or chop down trees, ect. Just a random thought on alternative ways a game could let you gain stats without a leveling system. Tie the stat gains to actions and achievements instead of a experience system (which is really just a "middle man" system to doing actions to get progress anyways, mostly just serves as a way to decouple actions & progress so progress is not linked to a specific action and a control dial for player progression speed).

Benefits of such a system is that progress is based on engaging with the worlds different systems, gives good incentives to engage with gathering/crafting systems, and creates a nice flow of discovery and progress through performing common actions. Down side is this would be terribly hard to balance if stat's are heavily influential on combat performance (could be mitigated some by having performance more from gear than stats) and easily grindy/exploitable without time deterrents/caps on certain actions (like having a satiety system to limit the amount of food you could eat over a period of time).

Dygz

ViBunja wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

What is the dev quote that states the devs want the game to be "realistic"?

"We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there."
– Jeffrey Bard

Q: Will you go for bikini plate armor for females?
A: We're going for kind of a more realistic look; not necessarily realistic setting, but we want our characters to have weight and kind of feel like they're there.
That is not the same thing as "We want the game to be realistic."
The devil is in the details. Context is king.

ViBunja wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

There could be a game like that, but that's not Ashes.
What you describe in this post sounds closer to Chronicles of Elyria.

It could be Ashes, but you can't say it isn't Ashes.

I can say it isn't Ashes. I did say it isn't Ashes.
It's technically not impossible it could be Ashes, but the likelihood is less than 5%.

ViBunja wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I mean, I actually disagree with your statements and suggestions, so I can safely assume you did not read what I wrote.

You agree we want restrictions on items, but you claim I don't?

I claimed you don't want level restrictions.
And I claimed the skill restrictions you suggested aren't worth the time and effort it would take the devs to code.
I'm not even sure you want levels, since you stated, "What even is a level? It doesn't make sense."
Level restrictions do not conflict with Ashes lore.

ViBunja

Jirue wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

but the problem rises with how else are you meant to get these skills/stats without levelling up?

Side thought came to my mind when reading this. I'm not suggesting at all that this should be the way AoC should be designed, but you could have systems other than leveling that award stat points.

Completing certain quests or conditions (kill X number of rabbits to get a title which gives more dexterity, one-shot a certain boss, ect.), eating different foods (either one time award, deteriorates over time, or diminishing return for eating the same food), gaining more strength points as you use melee attacks or chop down trees, ect. Just a random thought on alternative ways a game could let you gain stats without a leveling system. Tie the stat gains to actions and achievements instead of a experience system (which is really just a "middle man" system to doing actions to get progress anyways, mostly just serves as a way to decouple actions & progress so progress is not linked to a specific action and a control dial for player progression speed).

Benefits of such a system is that progress is based on engaging with the worlds different systems, gives good incentives to engage with gathering/crafting systems, and creates a nice flow of discovery and progress through performing common actions. Down side is this would be terribly hard to balance if stat's are heavily influential on combat performance (could be mitigated some by having performance more from gear than stats) and easily grindy/exploitable without time deterrents/caps on certain actions (like having a satiety system to limit the amount of food you could eat over a period of time).

I totally for about certain quests called class quests which are linked to levels, they could include class levels that teaches you how to use armor and weapons, then proficiency in using them, as well as something similar like tuning to items which would be more lore friendly, of course not to tune to every single weapon/armor, but learning how to tun to certain level weapons and I'd say have them within a range. Not for every single level.

Bahlder

Similar to trying to reinvent the holy trinity of Tank-DPS-Healer - No.

AntVictus

ViBunja wrote: »

AntVictus wrote: »

No. This whole pov wasn't even thought out, and it's very obvious this was done by a knee jerk "I don't like leveling" discussion that you had with friends or something. So again, no.

Wow, it's almost like you only read the title and not the short text I posted. I'm not against levels, I'm pro levels, just against the immersion of having items restrictions because of levels. Like saying, you can't hold this hammer because your level is too low, but not against the idea of wearing the hammer, but you don't deal the better damage than items on your levels.

Oh no I read it, which is exactly why i responded the way I did. Damn near everything you post in here or in the discord is just some opinionated bullshit half of the time, with no real statistics or facts placed behind it. And every time someone hits you with a truth statement FROM THE WIKI, you slink off and hide or try and twist the wording. Fact of the matter is, you don't have near the info needed or even a basic understanding of anything entailed in the game. You just keep spouting nonsense that some 14 year old yob would say. You just don't like leveling, your "immersion" is a scapegoat.

So again, no.
Edit: Also, read the wiki. Lex and the others work hard to make sure it's uptodate. So do yourself a favor and read it.

Noaani

ViBunja wrote: »

I feel it's not immersive that I can't wear a helmet because my level isn't high enough. It makes no sense, same with armor. It goes to the body, what else do you need to know?

Going all the way back to the very first sentience of the OP of this somewhat silly thread, this seems to be the issue.

The issue isn't with levels, it isn't with game design, it is with the OP not having an internal explination for why this kind of thing may happen.

Basically, the issue here is inside the OP's head.

So, @ViBunja

My suggestion to you is to look at every single item in every single game that has a level restriction as bing kind of like Infinity Stones in the MCU. While characters of higher power can wield them just fine, if you are not of sufficient power and attempt to do so, you are not in for a good time.

Assume this is a piece of information our characters innately have, and the game is communicating it to us players via the minimum level on the item.

Problem solved.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

My suggestion to you is to look at every single item in every single game that has a level restriction as bing kind of like Infinity Stones in the MCU. While characters of higher power can wield them just fine, if you are not of sufficient power and attempt to do so, you are not in for a good time.

To which VIbungja will reply... Why can I only hold one infinity stone, but Thanos gets to hold all of them? Thanos being purple ruins my immersion... ect...

valantir

Some games like ESO have the gear drops automatically sync with your player's level. It also has personal loot, meaning that each person in a party/raid gets drops from killing monsters. The downside with this design is that if players in a group are at different levels then the corresponding gear may be above or below your characters level. But I imagine one of the appeals of AoC is grouping together with higher levels players to kill higher level monsters who drop gear that you couldn't have feasibly gotten if you tried to solo them or were only grouped with lowbies.

Wargasm999

I understand what you are getting at. Could use a Ultima Online type system. Where anyone can equip any weps and armor. But how much you actually hit or how much damage you actually do or how much you block/absorb will be based on your level or skill level. So if theyre using a traditional level system a lvl 10 with a spear would do less damage and miss more than a lvl 20 with the same spear. Could also use stat requirements. Certain minimum str for certain armor or a certain amount of dex for a certain wep. But honestly im fine with whatever way they go. Ive played it all from the most hardcore to the most carebear. Its all fun to me.

Cat Quiver

ViBunja wrote: »

I'd have to say you are in the wrong game if you don't want a immersive simulator because AoC aims more towards that

Kek, sounds like you're in the wrong hobby

Do we need a bathroom time too? A "im gonna piss my pants" debuff?

Hemlocked

Unless you manually assign stat increases when you level up, what difference does it actually make? Other than weird situations where unequiping one piece of gear means another automatically falls off because it brings you below the minimum stat requirements (a la original MapleStory). The immersion argument also makes no sense because levels are already in the game. You'd have to go full Dark Souls style where your "level" is actually just a representation of how many stats you've allocated - anything else doesn't really make sense.

Marzzo

I dont want lvl 50 players boosting lvl 1-20 players so they have full lvl 50 gear.

Eathan

Alright, so tbh I've only read the initial statement of this post because it's far too long and as I read the first few after the initial statement I could tell most comments weren't going anywhere. So, I'm kind of partial to this idea, yes obviously there needs to be some kind of level cap or stats excluded from players that aren't of a certain level because this could lead to alts, bots etc. With that said, I'm not sure what the use of equipping a weapon is if you are penalized for the stats it provides. I like some points that have been made for no level req, but honestly all the things proposed to combat the cons this could lead do would take quite an extensive amount of dev work, which in a game that isn't even complete could pose a huge problem. Level req for gear is the easiest and more effective ways of preventing bots and leeches. The question "What is a level anyway?" was proposed and it's merely a concrete way of showing off one's initial experience, and by that I mean they have in some way or form done some kind of adventuring/questing/training. Obviously there is a difference between a freshly maxed character and one who is complete end game, but my point is that in a game you wish to be immersive it does indeed make sense to have certain items require a certain level. The idea that you needed a certain agility level to wield a rapier or something is a bit shallow, because in nearly all mmo's with an agility/dex stat you allocate points based off of your character level. So, you train - gain knowledge - choose how you wish to allocate - and then benefit from the experience you have learned. It's easy to say you should just be able to wield a rapier because what would physically stop you from holding a weapon, and sure it would be more immersive to be able to wield it but not to it's fullest potential, but I think that is asking for a bit much. The game has far more issues it needs to worry about, and I am not even speaking about the ones leading to the production of the game. There are bigger concerns in the community dev time should be used on. For example this is the first high anticipated mmo in the last 20 years to have 64 classes, imagine the balancing issues that we are gonna have when most games can't even manage 4-8. Now this may seem a bit off topic, but I'm only strengthening my point. We have FAR more things to worry about than level req items.

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