maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Dygz

Zythtyz wrote: »

The Raid isn't the Raid Leader. The Raid isn't the Guild Leader. The Raid isn't the Top DPSer. The Raid isn't the Top Healer. The Raid isn't anyone person. The Raid is everyone, working together, putting their skillsets to use for the greater good. When you break everything down into raw numbers, you take away from what truly matters, from the reason we all started playing games in the first place. The reason we all joined Guilds to begin with. It is to be part of something bigger, to accomplish something truly great. Something we could never have done on our own.

Yeah...but... only when you have combat trackers to find the slackers and kick them.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Zythtyz wrote: »

The Raid isn't the Raid Leader. The Raid isn't the Guild Leader. The Raid isn't the Top DPSer. The Raid isn't the Top Healer. The Raid isn't anyone person. The Raid is everyone, working together, putting their skillsets to use for the greater good. When you break everything down into raw numbers, you take away from what truly matters, from the reason we all started playing games in the first place. The reason we all joined Guilds to begin with. It is to be part of something bigger, to accomplish something truly great. Something we could never have done on our own.

Yeah...but... only when you have combat trackers to find the slackers and kick them.

Again, this is not how raid guilds work. Raid guilds are far more selective in who they let in to the guild, so poor performance during a raid is likely due to some issue that needs to be resolved, rather than booting a player out.

It is how pick up raids work on games where you can instantly sub in another player, but even pick up raids in games where you cant just sub another player in will work with what they have rather than boot people out.

The only people that get booted out mid raid from a raid run by a competent leader are people the raid is better off replacing with an empty spot.

If you have been booted from raids often, and those raids have gone on to success, the raid leader looked at something you were doing and decided the raid was better off with one less person than with having you there. It isnt just a case of poor performance, as someone doing half the DPS they would be expected to do is still doing more DPS than an empty spot.

It is literally a case of you doing something harmful to the raid (whether mechanically or due to your personality- which is where my money would be) and the raid leader not thinking your input is worth it.

As to those raids without a competent leader, being booted from then is a good thing, not a bad thing. If you are doing as you know you should and are booted from a raid - in a game with trackers and without an easy means to sub in a replacement, you can be rest assured that the raid in question will not be successful and so all that has happened is you have saved some time and some repair costs.

Really, people that dont want to be booted from a raid should be asking for the family summons to be taken out of the game, as that is the singular mechanic that will allow a raid leader to sub in a new player. Being able to sub in a new player means they can boot players that are just underperforming as opposed to only booting players that are destructive to the raid which is the case without the family summons.

akabear

Lost me in this thread is it about raiding or trackers?

Why the heavy focus on raiding & associated stats by a select few?

Is it that your focus to play AoC as if playing WoW and use trackers to get to end game faster and spend all time raiding only?

I only see raiding as an occasional time absorber as hopefully many other things to do.

Marcet

Stop talking about needing to find the slackers, how about you make a guild with enough trust so you dont need to care about that? Why do you want to mechanize things instead of letting it be an adventure like old mmo's?

If the best raid is going to be the one with less "slackers", then the meta will be having trustable companions in that raid, not swapping everyone for others in a go just because gear, and actually building confidence and relationships with your close people. Wich is superb gameplay, and it's what this game is all about.

@Zythtyz Is completely right, and you guys need to let go of mechanizing gameplay in an RPG!

Saedu

Dygz wrote: »

Well, it's an RPG - so RP isn't really a waste.
It's not a Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game.

Massive Multiplayer Online Raid Playing Game....

Yup that fits.

Saedu

Saedu wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Well, it's an RPG - so RP isn't really a waste.
It's not a Massively Multiplayer Raiding Game.

Massive Multiplayer Online Raid Playing Game....

Yup that fits.

Or how about

Massive Multiplayer Raiding and PvP Game...

Even better

akabear

@Zythtyz you have described my sentiment with what I wish I had the skill to write. (humbly bows)

Nice work!

halbarz

I have used DPS meters in the past and honestly do not want to see them in Ashes. I agree that the tool itself is not toxic but it's the people using it that are. But one feeds into the others, having this tool in the wrong hands creates toxicity within the overall community, guilds, etc.

Claiming that this will be used to help other players, is like saying guns are used to protect people ... until shots are fired. It all depends on who is using it. So why not just remove it? Those that want to help others can still do so, and those that want to be toxic have one tool less to abuse.

People saying that you cannot complete an encounter without data from such tools but brag that they are in a top raiding guild is rather funny ... it's an MMO, work together, think of strategies and build trust within your group to collaborate. You do not need meters, etc but people to complete raids, bosses, etc.

DPS meters also have a direct impact on the accessibility to the game for players that join in X amount of years. This due to the fear of being kicked in groups because they are new, certain requirements said by players, and the overall community being more focused on some digits than actually communicating.

Also comparing this game to WoW 24/7 isn't helping either, it should be clear by now that Ashes has a very different approach to how players interact with each other, the world and it's content.

Apologies for the rusty English

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

I only see raiding as an occasional time absorber as hopefully many other things to do.

Cool, you're welcome to see raiding like that.

Here is a basic overview of my position as a top end raider in all but one game I have played.

Steven has said he wants a competitive raid scene in the game, and wants content that is so hard that only a single digit percentage of the population are able to defeat it.

This is great from my perspective, as that is what most games with a good raiding scene have.

Now, if a game aspires to have a competitive raiding scene, one of the things it needs is competitive raiders.

This isnt hard, as there are many of us that have not had a game to play for a long while. All a game needs to do to attract these players to the game is to have content that is enjoyable to them.

The issue there is, content that is enjoyable to these players is - by necessity - complex content. It is the kind of content that truly does need combat trackers.

The kind of people I am talking about here (people like me) would not consider simple content that is tuned to be difficult as enjoyable. There is no sense of pride in killing simple content.

So basically, intrepid want a top end raiding scene, which requires top end raiders who require complex content, which requires a combat tracker.

That is why discussions on combat trackers will always revolve around raid content.

As a final point, while trackers are useful and good to have at all levels of the game, and in all aspects (ACT is even useful for harvesting in many games), there has never been any content outside of top end raid content that has actually *required* a tracker.

Noaani

halbarz wrote: »

I have used DPS meters in the past and honestly do not want to see them in Ashes. I agree that the tool itself is not toxic but it's the people using it that are. But one feeds into the others, having this tool in the wrong hands creates toxicity within the overall community, guilds, etc.

The problem with this perspective is that it is simply not supported by the fact.

WoW has a lot of combat trackers, and is toxic.
EQ2 has a lot of combat trackers, and is not toxic.
Archeage has very few combat trackers, and is toxic.

Clearly, based on the above games, combat trackers and toxicity are not directly linked.

Recluse74

You know what will not have combat trackers and will still be toxic? This forum.......

Anyone for combat trackers in AoC has basically 2 choices...

1. Find another game if it bothers you that much.
2. Use one anyway, and don't get caught.

There ... it is settled!

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

You know what will not have combat trackers and will still be toxic? This forum.......

Anyone for combat trackers in AoC has basically 2 choices...

1. Find another game if it bothers you that much.
2. Use one anyway, and don't get caught.

There ... it is settled!

Fortunately, option 2 is really easy.

In fact, it would be hard to get caught using one - you'd basically have to go out of your way.

Hemlocked

If AoC doesn't provide modding/addon support, then imo they should include optional dps meters that the entire party/raid has to opt-in to. This would allow the top hardcore raiding guilds to get the numbers they need to min-max their performance without affecting the experience of everyone else.

Noaani

Hemlocked wrote: »

If AoC doesn't provide modding/addon support, then imo they should include optional dps meters that the entire party/raid has to opt-in to. This would allow the top hardcore raiding guilds to get the numbers they need to min-max their performance without affecting the experience of everyone else.

Something akin to this has been my suggestion for about two years now.

Tragnar

Recluse74 wrote: »

You know what will not have combat trackers and will still be toxic? This forum.......

Anyone for combat trackers in AoC has basically 2 choices...

1. Find another game if it bothers you that much.
2. Use one anyway, and don't get caught.

There ... it is settled!

At the moment using a combat tracker doesn't lead to any action, because according to Steven it isn't possible to make any tracker work for ashes.

I literally view combat trackers as an alcohol - there were countries in history that tried to forbid alcohol in its entirety, but that just meant that the smuggling was booming and not that people stopped drinking it. Same thing is with Ashes and trackers, because those people that actually care to learn how to play and how to play to the best of their ability will use trackers without telling anyone that they use them.

These forum discussions about trackers are only about how to make the highest amount of people happy - those that do not want trackers and those that want them, because if intrepid would create the tracker themselves then they could quite literally limit the use of tracking to protect the people from it that dont want to interact with trackers.

If this game isnt dead on arrival and it actually has players that strive to be the best then those people will use trackers. And if intrepid goes to the lengths to prevent the use of trackers to the lengths that riot vanguard does (intrusive anticheat for competitive fps) then those players will just use screen capture with pen and paper.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

These forum discussions about trackers are only about how to make the highest amount of people happy

This is a point that I think is lost on many people.

Those that have been around for a while in these discussions know that the suggestion I have been making for years isn't the answer I want, it is the answer I feel is best for everyone. Many others agree with this general approach.

Tragnar wrote: »

those players will just use screen capture with pen and paper.

Almost.

Screen capture => second computer running combat tracker.

So, if Intrepid opt for the most invasive of "anti cheat" protections (the kind that will see 10%+ of potential customers refuse to even install the game), all they will see on someone running a combat tracker is the exact same they will see on a streamer, or a wannabe content creator.

This then gives Intrepid the option to either ban all content creators, or to admit that they can't do anything about combat trackers.

That is basically the bed Steven has made for himself.

Tragnar

Either way I think there are only 3 ways of what can happen
- game isnt popular and after initial hype the concurent player numbers drop below 4 figures so nobody really cares about trackers, because nobody is really playing the game
- game is popular and intrepid starts a war campaign against tracker users with ban waves
- (this is what i also think will actually happend) Steven gives the whole tracker topic a silent treatment without doing any actions against players to stop them from using it

halbarz

Noaani wrote: »

halbarz wrote: »

I have used DPS meters in the past and honestly do not want to see them in Ashes. I agree that the tool itself is not toxic but it's the people using it that are. But one feeds into the others, having this tool in the wrong hands creates toxicity within the overall community, guilds, etc.

The problem with this perspective is that it is simply not supported by the fact.

WoW has a lot of combat trackers, and is toxic.
EQ2 has a lot of combat trackers, and is not toxic.
Archeage has very few combat trackers, and is toxic.

Clearly, based on the above games, combat trackers and toxicity are not directly linked.

Toxicity can be caused by many things, DPS meters are one of them. As I said "having this tool in the wrong hands creates toxicity within the overall community, guilds, etc. " you cannot deny this. Archeage toxicity has very different reasons (which I am sure you are aware of) this is partially due to the game's design.

WoW is for a large part toxic due to elitism which is influenced further by the introduction of a million trackers.
But again as I said, in the wrong hands a DPS tracker can be used to create a toxic environment, impacting current and potential new players in the long run.

You claim that you want to use these trackers to help people, let's assume this is true. Then there is nothing stopping you from helping others without the use of a tracker/meter.

By having engagements and encouraging collaboration through clear communication you will defuse situations, and create a less toxic environment. This is true in your job and in a game or in any situation.
So no
need to have a tracker

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Either way I think there are only 3 ways of what can happen
- game isnt popular and after initial hype the concurent player numbers drop below 4 figures so nobody really cares about trackers, because nobody is really playing the game
- game is popular and intrepid starts a war campaign against tracker users with ban waves
- (this is what i also think will actually happend) Steven gives the whole tracker topic a silent treatment without doing any actions against players to stop them from using it

I completely agree. The eventual end of the situation will be when Intrepid realize that so many people are using them, they have no real option other than to allow them (as per GW2).

The funny thing is, we've seen this before, and it isn't what anyone wants - Intrepid, players that want combat trackers, or players that don't want combat trackers. There is an actual viable solution that is better for all three groups, and it is to the detriment of all groups that Intrepid seem uninterested in taking it.

Tragnar

halbarz wrote: »

Toxicity can be caused by many things, DPS meters are one of them. As I said "having this tool in the wrong hands creates toxicity within the overall community, guilds, etc. " you cannot deny this.

I completely deny this to be true, because toxic individuals create toxicity with any tool they are presented with. Psychopaths can use electricity to kill people, but we don't stop using electricity because of them.

If you want to fight ingame toxicity then the game should provide a basic framework for dealing and punishing toxic players by the players - removing tools from the game doesnt remove toxicity, because all that it does is to have the same amount of toxicity to be shown in different way and as long as you can have in the game human to human interaction then you will have the possibility of toxicity

WoW is for a large part toxic due to elitism which is influenced further by the introduction of a million trackers.
But again as I said, in the wrong hands a DPS tracker can be used to create a toxic environment, impacting current and potential new players in the long run.

Trackers in wow just an extremely small part of the addon scene, because the game needs to be patched with player addons in order to provide basic functionality that should have been part of the game but the devs just didnt code it, because they knew that players would do that for themselves

You claim that you want to use these trackers to help people, let's assume this is true. Then there is nothing stopping you from helping others without the use of a tracker/meter.

Helping others without a tracker is extremely troublesome, because it usually means that you need to have a screenshare and do a coaching for that guy, because players that need help in 99% of the time dont know what they actually need help with

By having engagements and encouraging collaboration through clear communication you will defuse situations, and create a less toxic environment. This is true in your job and in a game or in any situation.
So need to have a tracker

I believe you wanted to say "So no need to have a tracker" since what you wrote is in direct contradiction with the underlying message of your whole post.

While what you say is true, you can use that approach in any situation, but that doesnt mean that this approach is the best for every conflict that might happen. For example trying to talk with Flat Earth believers without the use of science is totally useless, because it just comes down to who can formulate better argument.

What you forget is that all people have their own perspectives on what happens and when you are trying to figure out what you can do better in a complex hard boss fight then you actually need cold hard facts that you can base your decisions off of.

Nobody wants the game to be designed for top players, but creating purposeful frustration from the lack of transparent information for any part of the playerbase is just straight bad

Don't transform the whole game for top players and dont kick top players in the balls for sport either

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