Character creation diversity

Hey this game looks amazing for alpha stage! I am personally very interested in seeing this game succeed and from all the footage I watched there was one thing that was really lacking and that was lack of diverse looking characters primarily when it came to seeing different races. Many people I think take a lot of joy in making very different looking characters and in games like WoW and Everquest 2 one of the things that was super appealing was just having so many options to choose from in terms of race and customizing your character to be as unique as possible

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Dygz

Mordimer wrote: »

So you are claiming that Mother Nature is racist?
Nope, that's the way things are.

Mother nature did not create "race", people did.
You mistakenly believe that skin color always determined "race".
You could learn about when race became a thing and when and why skin color became a factor of what determines "race". You could learn about when the Irish and Italians were not accepted as white in the US.
I find it interesting that I'm the one with the unhealthy obsession, but you can't seem to move on and return to the original topic.

RocketFarmer

I think the RPG genre in general has misused “race” when I think they mean species.

Human is the species, and within that are many separate races and cultures.

The two human “races” in AoC are really macro cultures having a collection of many different races. Unless they wanted to more or less declare these as two separate human species on the own - like Cro Magnon (early modern human) vs Neanderthal. But I assume AoC is following the cultural angle here, which is very common for fantasy RPGs.

The two representative human cultures to first step through the gate are modeled after European and Middle-eastern cultures (or more likely Islamic culture from the 10th and 11th century). From a historical perspective during this time period those were the dominant Cultures for the geography from a European-centric perspective. Within those real life cultures there are many different cultures based on a variety of factors that is represented by behavior, art, customs, etc. Perhaps additional human cultures step through the gate in the future.

Like a lot of fantasy RPGs, they use other cultures as the model or influence for the other “races”, like Elves, Dwarves and Orcs. I happen to think this is kind of lazy in that an Elven Native American does not really represent a Human Native American. But I understand that to create the depth and breadth of Human variation and also have these unique species with their own variation, while retaining some degree of familiarity to make it worth playing from the perspective of a human player, is a huge time investment. In addition, a lot of traditional fantasy races are really just representations of aspects of human behavior, ideals and values for which we can identify.

A player should be able to select as broad of a range of skin tones and other features to create whatever they like with the only restriction being those placed by the creative direction and intended “realism” for the game.

The fact that all player character “races” can start at any available starting location, which apparently may be representative of a number of different cultures, means by design the players are not limited in their selection based on these superficial features. In other words, there is no expectation to have a racially “pure” node. In fact, the game is being set up to be just the opposite. And in the grand scheme of things there are other, more significant sources of player conflict in the game such that if some group of players wanted to make skin tone a discriminating feature, then they are in for a hard time because the rest of the players simply don’t care or will just put them on their KoS list because they will simply be viewed as annoying.

As for the Mother Nature comment, and sticking to the game, how much evolution is involved when player characters are stepping through a gate from a completely separate world to restore an ancient, lost world? I would say zero. Race distribution in Verra is simply a bag of jelly beans spilled out over the map. What players do after that, that is to be determined.

Mordimer

JustVine wrote: »

"Mordimer wrote: »

So you are claiming that Mother Nature is racist?
Nope, that's the way things are. Every region on the planet has its representatives based on best adaptation to climate, environment, etc... that's Mother's Nature system - and believe me, it has nothing with racism. You have an unhealthy obsession with the topic despite the fact that MOST of the planet Earth don't give a shit and don't have problems with "systemic racism". If the lore says black race is black - then it's black... simple. If it's green, then it's green. But you say that you're going to point that orcs can't be orange and don't have tails... and the reason is "systemic racism"? Wtf...

Either do some reading of the things I linked https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/308797/#Comment_308797 and make a seperate thread in response or respect the man and:

Dygz wrote: »

At any rate...
We should probably move away from the derail and return to the original topic.

I don't need to read, I travelled a lot in the Middle East. A mix of locals, Slavs, Greeks, British, etc... common sense. It still has nothing to do with "systematic racism" because of lore-wise ideas for races there. Especially AoC starts as a new world, many years after the cataclysm - so all races rather stay in their communities and become unique for their home regions. Just as an example - there is a reason why Maori people (or any other civilization which haven't had contact with others) look unique. Looking unique has nothing with racism.

Mordimer

Dygz wrote: »

Mordimer wrote: »

So you are claiming that Mother Nature is racist?
Nope, that's the way things are.

Mother nature did not create "race", people did.
You mistakenly believe that skin color always determined "race".
You could learn about when race became a thing and when and why skin color became a factor of what determines "race". You could learn about when the Irish and Italians were not accepted as white in the US.
I find it interesting that I'm the one with the unhealthy obsession, but you can't seem to move on and return to the original topic.

OK - instead of races, use the term "ethnic", it should be more proper for sensitive people. How I understand Verra is how the Earth looks like - different races are based on different cultures. If you go to Japan, you see Japanese people look like Japanese People. If you go to Ukraine, you see Ukrainians. If you go to Kongo, you see Bantu, or Maori in Polynesia, etc... I really recommend traveling and see different cultures and as someone said here "representatives" for each ethnic group.

Now... Nigerian can come to Finland and live there, but he's still an elf living in orc community

Why would you like to mix everything like it's NYC? Being unique is beautiful. If the lore says orcs are green - you have a wide choice of greens/bluish, if the lore says the ancient race of wooden elves has white skin - that's how things are.

Uniqueness in ethnics is beautiful, mixing everything to be the same is insipid and boring.

Dygz

Um. If you go to Japan, you will find dark-skinned Japanese people. Just as if you go to Britain you will see British people of Asian descent.
Being light skinned does not prevent people from becoming Bantu or Maori. Skin color is not a factor.

Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Human and Tulnar are different species. Which has nothing to do with skin color.
Kaelar and Vaelune are different cultures. Which also has nothing to do with skin color.
I think what you mean is diversity is beautiful.
I haven't said anything about mixing things to be the same.
My Baldur's Gate 3 Dwarf is not the same as my BG3 Tiefling. They are both beautiful.

The systematic racism that has traditionally been in place in RPG fantasy settings promotes the concept of skin color being a primary factor of "race". Which is problematic.
D&D 3rd Edition finally removed the rules that restricted the skin colors associated with fantasy "species".
By 2021, it's time for MMORPGs to catch up.

"Race" has nothing to do with "common sense".
My grandmother was born Colored and died white.
In the hospital as a newborn, my niece was white if my brother was not present and African American if he was present.
A friend of mine told me a couple of days ago that her father was born Caucasian and died Asian.
"Common sense" has nothing to do with skin color being a factor of "race". And for thousands of years of Human history skin color had nothing to do with ethnicity.
You could actually become educated about the history of "race" instead of trying to rely on "common sense".
"Common sense" also leads some people to believe the Earth is flat. Just as it lead people to believe that the Sun circles the Earth and that the Earth is the center of the universe.

Mordimer

And I lived in a country/culture where 99% of the population had the same skin color (maybe slightly darker in summer). Even Mongolians/Tatars who settled 800 years ago and cultivate their culture have the same skin color. I can safely say that the range of skin color representing my ethnicity should be light color only with a variety of hair colors.

The World isn't oriented around cities like NYC. Travel more.

Dygz

I'm not sure what that has to do with Verra, but... 99% seems to indicate that it's not impossible for people there to have a different skin color.

Mordimer

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not sure what that has to do with Verra, but... 99% seems to indicate that it's not impossible for people there to have a different skin color.

Yes, other 1% came from different ethnicities/cultures and decided to settle down

Dygz

Hence...my point.

Mordimer

Nope, more like my point. You can come as an orc and live among elves. But still - orcs should look like orcs, elves should look like elves. There is nothing like systemic racism in that.

Dygz

Uh. Orcs and Elves are different species. That is not the same thing as your Mongolian example which is about the skin color of Humans and how that relates to ethnic identity.
But, from what you just wrote, you don't understand what systemic racism is.
If, in your Mongolian example, less than 100% were not possible that would be indicative of systemic racism.

Anyways. We really should end the derail because it's going to take too long to educate you. And that is not what this thread is for.

Mordimer

Different species in AoC are loosely based on different cultures/ethnicities on planet Earth - so that's just analogy. I would say you should educate yourself and try to look at reality from a different than "I am always right" perspective - lack of some color on character IS NOT systemic racism but the decision of lore creators (based on correct observation of different cultures/ethnicities). Moreover, you shouldn't extrapolate problems of one country to others, more tolerant cultures... then create problems that don't exist in most places in the World, and then try to find artificial solutions.

Dygz

Kaelar and Vaelune are not different species.

George_Black

Ima go ahead and say it myself.

Mordimer

Same as homo sapiens, Scandinavian and Maori are not different species. And guess what... I can look at them and tell you which one is which one. Why? Because they look distinguished - mostly by the skin tone. And NO, they aren't born white/black and die opposite

George_Black

Kaelar and Vaelune, in terms of real life comparisons are different ethnicities and different cultures. And now a few words because this thread has gone political. It's the easiest way to go political these days. It's the easiest way to attempt to discredit another view. It's easier to label them instead of addressing the points. Dont worry, Ill promote your points for you without having to call anyone racist or say stuff like "if games had locked colors the racists could freely express their racism".

But first let me tell you a few words.

Back in the day people used to celebrate their differences. They used to admire people that were different than them, worship their foreign gods and introduce theirs as well. Take Greeks and Egyptians for example, or Hindu and Chinese/Japanese.

Back in the day people had enemies as well. Mostly it would be their neightbouring people, with which they had land disputes or raid insidents. People didnt call them racist or intolerant. They were at war.

Racism started at the same time as globilization. People from poorer countries migrated to the countries that established economies (sometimes by stealing other peoples resources). For the first time in mankind people saw differences (that before were celebrated) as inferiority. And I would argue that this form of racism remains in global capitals. "Ah you are not X anymore, you are Y now. You behave like us now or we will laugh at you or call you nationalist if you maintain your X identity".

And fast forward to 2010, people started pretending that everything is similar. They started pretending that there are no differences to be CELEBRATED. We must all be the same, act the same, shut up and watch our netflix otherwise someone will call use racist or intolorant. No more thinking. Thinking is offensive.

So here is the real reason why Valeune and Kaelar shouldn't have ethnicity/culture features to be CELEBRATED AND ADMIRED, or other unique features that would make them look a lot more AWSOME AND INTERESTING.

It's because it's a video game, you "one-only-word I want to use to describe accuratly, but these days we have to type a pretentious paragraph, in an attempt to insult someone, while maintaining the self delusional facade that we are more mature than others (and avoid bans ofc...)".
It's a video game and people that are yellow black white red of skin color should be able to wear knight looking armors and swords, as well as ninja looking armors and swords as well as ancient looking armors and swords, having created a character that looks like themselves if they wanted too.

It's a video game and an mmo at that. That's why skin tone should not be restricted. Not because anybody is racist ffs. Could you not have said that instead of attacking a different view?
But ofc not. You see, thinking is offensive now. Going political is safe, although brainless.

JustVine

Calling something systemically rascist, isn't the same as calling a person rascist. I don't expect you to understand why. Just know that no one has called anyONE rascist today.

LoLesttK

This is the dumbest thread ever..
Devs please don't ruin the game with some SJW bs

Unkempt Foliage

I don't really want to get into an argument but just thought i would add my voice incase someone from Intrepid happens to read this thread. So this comment is more for them than anyone else as I won't be responding to anything in this thread.

A black dwarf, an Asian elf, a middle eastern human. I don't see anything wrong with any of it. The more options the better so people can really connect with their characters. The best option to me is to distinguish the different race cultures are through their cloths, their armor, and maybe hairstyles..

Their is a lot of slippery slop arguments here and as you don't go with neon orcs, I don't see anything wrong with allowing humanoids from a large variety of backgrounds .

Vhaeyne

LoLesttK wrote: »

This is the dumbest thread ever..
Devs please don't ruin the game with some SJW bs

I have to disagree. It has nothing to do with SJW nonsense in this case.

It is about allowing a respectable amount of player agency. Time and time again we sit down to create our characters only to have a limited amount of freedom based on some arbitrary lore that is rarely infallible.

Even in a game like Lord of the Rings Online. A game pulling from what is some of the most recognizable and well-known fantasy lore. Even in LOTRO you could make a black hobbit. Why? Because it allows for more player freedom, and it does not change the lore significantly or negatively. All it does is make the game more fun for more people.

To me, the only way to ruin a game is to chose lore over fun and player agency. If I just wanted pure lore, I would read a book.

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