I would argue it's not that there are fewer women playing games but that there are more male developers than female developers, and a whole lot of those developers were raised on the comic book style of drawing their characters. I saw an article or video a long time ago about it. It was a book that almost everyone who learned to do art in those circles had learned from at some point. I think it might have been this one: https://ratcreature.livejournal.com/175099.html Or one similar at least.
I agree with the last part though I just don't think hypersexualization fits the theme of the game at all.
As far as the comic book thing goes, I can't ever follow along with the "Oversexualized/unachievable" argument to design of characters in comics. Theyre meant to be unachievable and as a result desirable. The idea of the "realistic/everyday average looing" heroes is just narcissist's self inserting themselves as their own characters usually. Super is Super... not a typical or even optimal human being.
I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, and if so sorry. But super isn't just super in comic books. The male superheroes are not drawn in a sexual way. They are generally not sexy at all to women reading the comics. They are drawn to show big muscles and powerful poses.They don't have the full lips and eyes or facial expressions that the women are drawn with. The women are mostly drawn in sexualized poses with one purpose in mind: To show as much tits and ass as possible, to titillate all the teenage boys they believe will read the comics.
You don't think Hypersexualization of males is that present in games or media?
Khal Drogo would like a word. Every chance they get, they will show you a guy's chest if it's shredded. Sometimes the guy don't even have to be in that great of shape... look at twilight. XD
How many action movies end with the guy being covered in sweat and their cloths shredded. There are plenty of armor sets in MMORPGs that show off dudes abs and glam muscles. Just because the guys are not posing like girls does not mean they are not sexualized.
This thread is moving fast! I missed this one.
@Vhaeyne that is not hypersexualization, or even necessarily sexy. The action guy showing off abs and shredded clothes and all sweaty and such is NOT sexy unless they deliberately pose him that way. You are confusing male power fantasy with what is actually sexy to people who are turned on by men.
Jason Momoa is a very sexy man to a lot of people. Sometimes very sexy people can make non-sexual things sexy, but that is the exception that proves the rule more than anything else.
I would argue it's not that there are fewer women playing games but that there are more male developers than female developers, and a whole lot of those developers were raised on the comic book style of drawing their characters. I saw an article or video a long time ago about it. It was a book that almost everyone who learned to do art in those circles had learned from at some point. I think it might have been this one: https://ratcreature.livejournal.com/175099.html Or one similar at least.
I agree with the last part though I just don't think hypersexualization fits the theme of the game at all.
As far as the comic book thing goes, I can't ever follow along with the "Oversexualized/unachievable" argument to design of characters in comics. Theyre meant to be unachievable and as a result desirable. The idea of the "realistic/everyday average looing" heroes is just narcissist's self inserting themselves as their own characters usually. Super is Super... not a typical or even optimal human being.
I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, and if so sorry. But super isn't just super in comic books. The male superheroes are not drawn in a sexual way. They are generally not sexy at all to women reading the comics. They are drawn to show big muscles and powerful poses.They don't have the full lips and eyes or facial expressions that the women are drawn with. The women are mostly drawn in sexualized poses with one purpose in mind: To show as much tits and ass as possible, to titillate all the teenage boys they believe will read the comics.
Anyway, I'm getting somewhat off topic now
I just asked a friend if she gets any sexy time vibes from any comics and she said, AND I QUOTE! "I want Gambit to -expletive- my -expletive- like he doesn't even care if I die." LMAO
There are plenty of women (and even dudes) who are totally into the super muscular/powerful build of the typical comic book art. Nothing wrong with it. Both males and females in comics are unachievable in reality. As they are meant to be.
You have me at a disadvantage here. I don't know what people who are attracted to men find sexy. I know I feel more sexy when I have abs. Other than that, I just know when a male looks healthy or not. I mean, I have had girls tell me Pinhead is attractive... which is just confusing.
I read that article and they kind of show how I feel on the subject. I think the writer and the artists for the comic decide if they want their use of the character to be sexy.
They show examples of that in the article, but then at the end come to the conclusion that superheros look the way they look to show power? I think it's solely what the writer wants.
Ideally, as it relates to MMORPGs. People would be able to choose if they want their character to be "Sexy" or not. WOW added that out of shape human race a while back. It's not very popular, but it's cool to see the option.
What I don't really care for is people saying they want an environment where there can be zero sexualization period because: "they don't like it".
I mean, are we too assume there are no Succubi or Incubi in Ashes? Demons are just going to not exploit man's greatest weakness?
I just realized that I missed out on all the cool cosmetics...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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What are people arguing about? The game will have revealing outfits. People (myself included) posted pictures. How tasteful you consider them to be is a matter of opinion, but you’ll be able to show some skin.
You have me at a disadvantage here. I don't know what people who are attracted to men find sexy. I know I feel more sexy when I have abs. Other than that, I just know when a male looks healthy or not. I mean, I have had girls tell me Pinhead is attractive... which is just confusing.
I understand. I used to think like you because, well, that's pretty much what we are raised to believe by the movies and a lot of other entertainment. Big, muscly and powerful action guy kicks ass and saves the day, and often gets to bang the hot chick young enough to be his daughter. See that often enough at a young age and the fiction becomes "truth". I mean, movies certainly don't lie do they? It's all designed to appeal to men and that power fantasy, including that sweaty, shredded look with the strategically placed wounds so the blood looks badass.
I would argue it's not that there are fewer women playing games but that there are more male developers than female developers, and a whole lot of those developers were raised on the comic book style of drawing their characters. I saw an article or video a long time ago about it. It was a book that almost everyone who learned to do art in those circles had learned from at some point. I think it might have been this one: https://ratcreature.livejournal.com/175099.html Or one similar at least.
I agree with the last part though I just don't think hypersexualization fits the theme of the game at all.
As far as the comic book thing goes, I can't ever follow along with the "Oversexualized/unachievable" argument to design of characters in comics. Theyre meant to be unachievable and as a result desirable. The idea of the "realistic/everyday average looing" heroes is just narcissist's self inserting themselves as their own characters usually. Super is Super... not a typical or even optimal human being.
I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, and if so sorry. But super isn't just super in comic books. The male superheroes are not drawn in a sexual way. They are generally not sexy at all to women reading the comics. They are drawn to show big muscles and powerful poses.They don't have the full lips and eyes or facial expressions that the women are drawn with. The women are mostly drawn in sexualized poses with one purpose in mind: To show as much tits and ass as possible, to titillate all the teenage boys they believe will read the comics.
Anyway, I'm getting somewhat off topic now
I just asked a friend if she gets any sexy time vibes from any comics and she said, AND I QUOTE! "I want Gambit to -expletive- my -expletive- like he doesn't even care if I die." LMAO
There are plenty of women (and even dudes) who are totally into the super muscular/powerful build of the typical comic book art. Nothing wrong with it. Both males and females in comics are unachievable in reality. As they are meant to be.
Funny enough, if you check my quora link in the post above yours and expand the top answer, Gambit is featured! You have to scroll down a bit. Check it out
What are people arguing about? The game will have revealing outfits. People (myself included) posted pictures. How tasteful you consider them to be is a matter of opinion, but you’ll be able to show some skin.
About all kinds of things! And yeah there will be skin showing for some outfits. I think we're partly arguing about how prevalent it should be?
“A little more skin” is just asking for more visible boob and legs on pixel women, let’s not pretend this is about the health of game 🙄
We all know sex sales.
What "sex sells" usually means in the vast, vast majority of games (and outside of games) is the hypersexualisation/objectification of young women's bodies. The males get the power fantasy treatment, not the sexualization treatment. Most guys I've talked to about it don't know the difference at first.
I have never seen an MMORPG featuring hypersexualization where the male characters are even remotely sexualized to the extent the female ones are. It's not just outfits showing skin, it's animations, emotes and poses too.
Now, I have certainly not played all MMORPGs out there, and I am sure there might be some featuring sexualized male outfits/poses. Maybe some of the women here have seen an MMORPG where it's somewhat equal?
Anyone familiar with the Hawkeye Initiative? It's a satirical site that showcases the often ridiculous, but also extremely ubiquitous hypersexualization of women in comics. Much of it applies to games and other media as well though. It's been so normalized that most people probably don't even see it for what it is. There is a wiki page as well.
To get get back on topic, this game doesn't need sex to sell it. In fact, I would argue it cheapens the whole thing if they add too many sexy outfits/poses, to the detriment of the game overall. And whatever they do decide to add, I hope they make sure to make it equal.
I cant even just count on both of my hands how many women I know who have played witcher who have told me how much they loveeeee this scene. Sex sells all around my friend, male or female.
Of course it does. It kind of proves my point too. My point is that scenes like the above are pretty friggin' rare. And going with the witcher, how many scenes of scantily clad/nude women aren't there compared to those with Geralt or men in general? It's a lot more. It's not equal in that game either.
I think that mostly goes along with the fact that male players are much more common than female. That being said I I still don't see the problem. Hell if there was a game with nothing but dong accentuating outfits for rugged men to appeal to women, thats just as ok to me as that hypersexualized anime bullcrap thats out there. What it really comes down to is the goal of the developers. As I said earlier, if it fits the world that is being built, then do it. If it doesnt fit, don't include it.
What kind of old ass foggy believes this load of horse apples still?
Women make up at least 45% of the market. This old ass 'not that common' bullocks has been dead since the early 2000's. I would hardly call 40-45% of your player base 'much less common'.
We are not as noticeable because we learn to keep our heads down around player bases with largely misogynistic behavior.
I just realized that I missed out on all the cool cosmetics...
Right. To me these are very balanced and sexualized only somewhat (since obviously no one is leaving their abdomen exposed like that if they seriously value their life in combat.)
One thing that is clear to me from the above conversation. No matter what, a design choice in a game will get political, because someone will go 'wait a minute that decision didn't fit my world view! They should change their decisions to better meet my needs because my wallet matters.'
Like Vhaeyne said games with "sexier" and more revealing outfits are more popular among women.
Bikinis, sunglasses, sunhats, surfingboards, high heels etc are to much though.
Like Vhaeyne said games with "sexier" and more revealing outfits are more popular among women.
Bikinis, sunglasses, sunhats, surfingboards, high heels etc are to much though.
Like Vhaeyne said games with "sexier" and more revealing outfits are more popular among women.
Bikinis, sunglasses, sunhats, surfingboards, high heels etc are to much though.
Are they though? from what we have established already there will be cosmetics like the nikua that wear grass skirts into battle.
Perhaps we are being too one-track with the discussion. What if there were casual glamours you could apply to yourself while inside of towns, apartments, and in the area of freeholds? Basically a buff that is removed if you leave the designated areas. This would allow players to create casual wear for themselves that could be more, lets say modern or revealing, while keeping it separate from the open world. As for what would be chosen as "casual clothing" That would be up to the design team and loremasters to decide what fits the world.
Like Vhaeyne said games with "sexier" and more revealing outfits are more popular among women.
Bikinis, sunglasses, sunhats, surfingboards, high heels etc are to much though.
Are they though? from what we have established already there will be cosmetics like the nikua that wear grass skirts into battle.
Perhaps we are being too one-track with the discussion. What if there were casual glamours you could apply to yourself while inside of towns, apartments, and in the area of freeholds? Basically a buff that is removed if you leave the designated areas. This would allow players to create casual wear for themselves that could be more, lets say modern or revealing, while keeping it separate from the open world. As for what would be chosen as "casual clothing" That would be up to the design team and loremasters to decide what fits the world.
Are they though? from what we have established already there will be cosmetics like the nikua that wear grass skirts into battle.
Perhaps we are being too one-track with the discussion. What if there were casual glamours you could apply to yourself while inside of towns, apartments, and in the area of freeholds? Basically a buff that is removed if you leave the designated areas. This would allow players to create casual wear for themselves that could be more, lets say modern or revealing, while keeping it separate from the open world. As for what would be chosen as "casual clothing" That would be up to the design team and loremasters to decide what fits the world.
I guess more tribal version of bras etc would be ok, like made of tree leaves.
But maybe that should be limited to the NPCs of those areas, like jungle or tribes close to the ocean.
“A little more skin” is just asking for more visible boob and legs on pixel women, let’s not pretend this is about the health of game 🙄
We all know sex sales.
What "sex sells" usually means in the vast, vast majority of games (and outside of games) is the hypersexualisation/objectification of young women's bodies. The males get the power fantasy treatment, not the sexualization treatment. Most guys I've talked to about it don't know the difference at first.
I have never seen an MMORPG featuring hypersexualization where the male characters are even remotely sexualized to the extent the female ones are. It's not just outfits showing skin, it's animations, emotes and poses too.
Now, I have certainly not played all MMORPGs out there, and I am sure there might be some featuring sexualized male outfits/poses. Maybe some of the women here have seen an MMORPG where it's somewhat equal?
Anyone familiar with the Hawkeye Initiative? It's a satirical site that showcases the often ridiculous, but also extremely ubiquitous hypersexualization of women in comics. Much of it applies to games and other media as well though. It's been so normalized that most people probably don't even see it for what it is. There is a wiki page as well.
To get get back on topic, this game doesn't need sex to sell it. In fact, I would argue it cheapens the whole thing if they add too many sexy outfits/poses, to the detriment of the game overall. And whatever they do decide to add, I hope they make sure to make it equal.
I cant even just count on both of my hands how many women I know who have played witcher who have told me how much they loveeeee this scene. Sex sells all around my friend, male or female.
Of course it does. It kind of proves my point too. My point is that scenes like the above are pretty friggin' rare. And going with the witcher, how many scenes of scantily clad/nude women aren't there compared to those with Geralt or men in general? It's a lot more. It's not equal in that game either.
I think that mostly goes along with the fact that male players are much more common than female. That being said I I still don't see the problem. Hell if there was a game with nothing but dong accentuating outfits for rugged men to appeal to women, thats just as ok to me as that hypersexualized anime bullcrap thats out there. What it really comes down to is the goal of the developers. As I said earlier, if it fits the world that is being built, then do it. If it doesnt fit, don't include it.
What kind of old ass foggy believes this load of horse apples still?
Women make up at least 45% of the market. This old ass 'not that common' bullocks has been dead since the early 2000's. I would hardly call 40-45% of your player base 'much less common'.
We are not as noticeable because we learn to keep our heads down around player bases with largely misogynistic behavior.
This is kind of misleading.
Women make up 45% of the gaming market, but they make up 70% of the market for match 3 games, 70% of the market for sim farm/sim life games, yet around than 5% of the market for driving games and FPS.
Just saying women make up 45% of the gaming market is disingenuous. While it is technically true, it is a piece of information that is only of value if you are talking about the games industy as a whole.
If you are talking about a specific genre, you should only use the metrics from that genre.
Fantasy MMO as a genre is about 35%. MMO's over all are around 25%. Sci-fi MMO's (not that we are talking about them here) are around 15%.
So, in terms of discussions with this game, or this genre, the only figure that is appropriate to use for percentage of women playing is 35%.
While that isn't the "not that common" that you were replying to, it also isn't the 45% you are claiming.
All I was trying to say is that "if" intrepid puts out a skin like the early ones I linked(Which are not that sexy, but I do like that gladiator aesthetic.).
"If" intrepid is noticing that showing more skin is an increase in sales. I don't think it's bad for them to capitalize on that fact and give the people that buy these things what they want.
It pains me to say this because I hate the December cosmetic so damn much. If they notice that this Santa outfit(calling it as I see it) sales more than normal. Then maybe they should consider trying an Easter or St. Patrick's skin in the coming months.
I don't want that, about as much as some of you don't want to see more skin in the game. Not shaming other people for liking what they like is probably better for the game. Especially if that thing is generating sales. Broke ass MMOs go P2W then die.
I am still going to meme on Sufferton, but if they did something else like it, and it sold well, that would be good for all of us. Chain mail bikinis might be good for all of us too...
All I was trying to say is that "if" intrepid puts out a skin like the early ones I linked(Which are not that sexy, but I do like that gladiator aesthetic.).
"If" intrepid is noticing that showing more skin is an increase in sales. I don't think it's bad for them to capitalize on that fact and give the people that buy these things what they want.
It pains me to say this because I hate the December cosmetic so damn much. If they notice that this Santa outfit(calling it as I see it) sales more than normal. Then maybe they should consider trying an Easter or St. Patrick's skin in the coming months.
I don't want that, about as much as some of you don't want to see more skin in the game. Not shaming other people for liking what they like is probably better for the game. Especially if that thing is generating sales. Broke ass MMOs go P2W then die.
I am still going to meme on Sufferton, but if they did something else like it, and it sold well, that would be good for all of us. Chain mail bikinis might be good for all of us too...
Bewbs and Peen are one thing, but I draw the line at that cutsie bullcrap lmao
Bewbs and Peen are one thing, but I draw the line at that cutsie bullcrap lmao
Has anyone asked for peen?
I mean, jumping around as a male in first person playing Conan Exiles to do the "helicopter" for the lols is one thing... I just have not seen anyone ask for it.
Unless you count the time that I pointed out that an enforced nudity server is a sure fire way to prevent stream sniping on twitch. XD
First of all while you make a mildly valid and even possibly relevant criticism, I was responding to Dolyem's very general, unspecified by genre claim of 'men are much more common than women in the video game market' with data I had a fairly good amount of confidence in as there were multiple independent sources backing up the figures I stated. The 45% stands in that context.
Since my fellow arguer is both a cheap (first hit on google) and lazy (cant be assed to link the citation from the wiki article of said first result) debater who cannot cite their own sources while making possibly valid criticisms. Here is the only actual study cited in the Wikipedia article with regards to genre population.
This one study got spread around in multiple places and reported on by other news outlets. There is a lot of research relative to general gender ratios in gaming. Significantly less in regards to genres specifically. I personally find some of their methods for compiling this study debatable. I will not call it a bad study, but one that needs a few more friends (other independent studies with more rigorous sampling methods) for anyone to call the data conclusive fact.
In either case even if you want to make the argument that women are a lot more of a minority in games. If you take a look at that very study as 100% fact. It begs the question, why is the ratio so low for mmo's when they are very much social driven games and that is the main driver for gaming for women, according to that study?
To me that's definitely a sign of untapped potential. I won't pretend I know why, but possible surrounding social factors and perception issues caused by the way the industry currently operates certainly are obvious places to investigate and consider.
Bewbs and Peen are one thing, but I draw the line at that cutsie bullcrap lmao
Has anyone asked for peen?
I mean, jumping around as a male in first person playing Conan Exiles to do the "helicopter" for the lols is one thing... I just have not seen anyone ask for it.
Unless you count the time that I pointed out that an enforced nudity server is a sure fire way to prevent stream sniping on twitch. XD
Thats...actually hilarious and a pretty solid prevention to having a streamer server honestly
All I was trying to say is that "if" intrepid puts out a skin like the early ones I linked(Which are not that sexy, but I do like that gladiator aesthetic.).
"If" intrepid is noticing that showing more skin is an increase in sales. I don't think it's bad for them to capitalize on that fact and give the people that buy these things what they want.
It pains me to say this because I hate the December cosmetic so damn much. If they notice that this Santa outfit(calling it as I see it) sales more than normal. Then maybe they should consider trying an Easter or St. Patrick's skin in the coming months.
I don't want that, about as much as some of you don't want to see more skin in the game. Not shaming other people for liking what they like is probably better for the game. Especially if that thing is generating sales. Broke ass MMOs go P2W then die.
I am still going to meme on Sufferton, but if they did something else like it, and it sold well, that would be good for all of us. Chain mail bikinis might be good for all of us too...
Sure, I can jive with that reasoning. But it's much harder to see suppressed demand and suppressed subscriptions as a result of creating a cultural environment that feels more and more traditionally like a boys club.
Again I am not saying that is what is currently happening. But the more chain mail bikinis one adds to the collection relative to other things, the more a cultural theme begins to emerge. It can be off putting for some people after a certain point.
And therefore again, it pays to keep a more balanced approach in the long run to shape exactly what you want your consumer culture to look like even if it means certain cosmetics sell less.
Sure, I can jive with that reasoning. But it's much harder to see suppressed demand and suppressed subscriptions as a result of creating a cultural environment that feels more and more traditionally like a boys club.
Again I am not saying that is what is currently happening. But the more chain mail bikinis one adds to the collection relative to other things, the more a cultural theme begins to emerge. It can be off putting for some people after a certain point.
And therefore again, it pays to keep a more balanced approach in the long run to shape exactly what you want your consumer culture to look like even if it means certain cosmetics sell less.
There is a lot of research relative to general gender ratios in gaming. Significantly less in regards to genres specifically.
This is true.
Unfortunate, but true.
There is almost no non-academic value in looking at anything at all from an over all computer game perspective. We are not executives at Activision, Ubisoft or EA (we all still have souls, you see). The only actual useful data is genre specific - or even game specific.
I am not about to call the data from that specific study conclusive fact. Unless every single person playing games is counted, I wouldn't call any figures conclusive fact. However, it is data that has more validity to it right now, today, in discussing Ashes, than saying women make up 45% of all gamers.
Yeah. more studies in that area would be great. Good luck getting funding right now on any social study that is using a binary gender paradigm though.
So, since it is the only data we have, and there is no real hope of getting more relevant data in the near future, it is the best and only data we have, and so we need to accept it as such - faults and all.
For now.
As a somewhat logically minded person, I assume you agree with all of the above.
In either case even if you want to make the argument that women are a lot more of a minority in games. If you take a look at that very study as 100% fact. It begs the question, why is the ratio so low for mmo's when they are very much social driven games and that is the main driver for gaming for women, according to that study?
This is a valid discussion point.
Perhaps the first thing to note is that at least if you go by the data we have, fantasy MMO's have the highest proportion of female players of any online genre.
While nothing conclusive can be taken from this, one very real possibility could be that as a generalization, females are less likely to play online games as males are, but the social aspects of fantasy MMO's attracts those that do play online games to the genre.
It may well be that to attract more female gamers to MMOs like Ashes, work needs to be done to attract women to online gaming in general first, and from there many will opt to play fantasy MMO's as the most appealing genre of online game.
Off-putting to certain people is not reason enough to restrict anything. Plenty of us have made our views on Suffertron clear, yet I don't think it's going to keep us from playing.
I would wager that even if they released a different cute stuffed animal mount every month for the life of the game. Such cosmetics would not ruin the game, so long as the game play is actually good. The same could be said for cosmetics that show skin.
I think you would just see a lot more use of the "/spit" emote...
I don't want to see them restrict themselves to make a few loud voices happy. That is where we come back to the SJW problem that started this thread. If they hear a lot of yelling on Twitter about how the cosmetics show too much skin, yet they sold more that month than any other... I think they should listen to the sales. Just how I feel.
Wildstar is dead. Darkfall is dead. If it meant I had to deal with naked dudes running around on "My little Pony" mounts to play those games again. I would deal with it.
Comments
The point is the regarding what type of player community Intrepid Studios would strive for-- which has been discussed previously in this thread.
Ideally, they want everyone they can get in the game to be happy. Not just the specific people you like happy.
We have players who like slutmogs, players who don't mind them, and players who prefer not to see them...
This is not a zero-sum game. If modest cloths sold like hot cakes, I would want them to make more of that.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, and if so sorry.
Anyway, I'm getting somewhat off topic now
This thread is moving fast! I missed this one.
@Vhaeyne that is not hypersexualization, or even necessarily sexy. The action guy showing off abs and shredded clothes and all sweaty and such is NOT sexy unless they deliberately pose him that way. You are confusing male power fantasy with what is actually sexy to people who are turned on by men.
Jason Momoa is a very sexy man to a lot of people. Sometimes very sexy people can make non-sexual things sexy, but that is the exception that proves the rule more than anything else.
I did a google and found this one for you to browse through: https://www.quora.com/Are-male-superheroes-not-sexualized-or-are-they-just-sexualized-differently-than-female-superheroes
I just asked a friend if she gets any sexy time vibes from any comics and she said, AND I QUOTE! "I want Gambit to -expletive- my -expletive- like he doesn't even care if I die." LMAO
There are plenty of women (and even dudes) who are totally into the super muscular/powerful build of the typical comic book art. Nothing wrong with it. Both males and females in comics are unachievable in reality. As they are meant to be.
Aren't we all sinners?
You have me at a disadvantage here. I don't know what people who are attracted to men find sexy. I know I feel more sexy when I have abs. Other than that, I just know when a male looks healthy or not. I mean, I have had girls tell me Pinhead is attractive... which is just confusing.
I read that article and they kind of show how I feel on the subject. I think the writer and the artists for the comic decide if they want their use of the character to be sexy.
They show examples of that in the article, but then at the end come to the conclusion that superheros look the way they look to show power? I think it's solely what the writer wants.
Ideally, as it relates to MMORPGs. People would be able to choose if they want their character to be "Sexy" or not. WOW added that out of shape human race a while back. It's not very popular, but it's cool to see the option.
What I don't really care for is people saying they want an environment where there can be zero sexualization period because: "they don't like it".
I mean, are we too assume there are no Succubi or Incubi in Ashes? Demons are just going to not exploit man's greatest weakness?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I just realized that I missed out on all the cool cosmetics...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I understand. I used to think like you because, well, that's pretty much what we are raised to believe by the movies and a lot of other entertainment. Big, muscly and powerful action guy kicks ass and saves the day, and often gets to bang the hot chick young enough to be his daughter. See that often enough at a young age and the fiction becomes "truth". I mean, movies certainly don't lie do they?
Funny enough, if you check my quora link in the post above yours and expand the top answer, Gambit is featured! You have to scroll down a bit. Check it out
About all kinds of things! And yeah there will be skin showing for some outfits. I think we're partly arguing about how prevalent it should be?
What kind of old ass foggy believes this load of horse apples still?
https://ukiepedia.ukie.org.uk/index.php/Player_Diversity_&_Demographics
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/
Women make up at least 45% of the market. This old ass 'not that common' bullocks has been dead since the early 2000's. I would hardly call 40-45% of your player base 'much less common'.
We are not as noticeable because we learn to keep our heads down around player bases with largely misogynistic behavior.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Right. To me these are very balanced and sexualized only somewhat (since obviously no one is leaving their abdomen exposed like that if they seriously value their life in combat.)
One thing that is clear to me from the above conversation. No matter what, a design choice in a game will get political, because someone will go 'wait a minute that decision didn't fit my world view! They should change their decisions to better meet my needs because my wallet matters.'
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Bikinis, sunglasses, sunhats, surfingboards, high heels etc are to much though.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
Citation needed.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Are they though? from what we have established already there will be cosmetics like the nikua that wear grass skirts into battle.
Perhaps we are being too one-track with the discussion. What if there were casual glamours you could apply to yourself while inside of towns, apartments, and in the area of freeholds? Basically a buff that is removed if you leave the designated areas. This would allow players to create casual wear for themselves that could be more, lets say modern or revealing, while keeping it separate from the open world. As for what would be chosen as "casual clothing" That would be up to the design team and loremasters to decide what fits the world.
I really like this idea a lot.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
I guess more tribal version of bras etc would be ok, like made of tree leaves.
But maybe that should be limited to the NPCs of those areas, like jungle or tribes close to the ocean.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
This is kind of misleading.
Women make up 45% of the gaming market, but they make up 70% of the market for match 3 games, 70% of the market for sim farm/sim life games, yet around than 5% of the market for driving games and FPS.
Just saying women make up 45% of the gaming market is disingenuous. While it is technically true, it is a piece of information that is only of value if you are talking about the games industy as a whole.
If you are talking about a specific genre, you should only use the metrics from that genre.
Fantasy MMO as a genre is about 35%. MMO's over all are around 25%. Sci-fi MMO's (not that we are talking about them here) are around 15%.
So, in terms of discussions with this game, or this genre, the only figure that is appropriate to use for percentage of women playing is 35%.
While that isn't the "not that common" that you were replying to, it also isn't the 45% you are claiming.
All I was trying to say is that "if" intrepid puts out a skin like the early ones I linked(Which are not that sexy, but I do like that gladiator aesthetic.).
"If" intrepid is noticing that showing more skin is an increase in sales. I don't think it's bad for them to capitalize on that fact and give the people that buy these things what they want.
It pains me to say this because I hate the December cosmetic so damn much. If they notice that this Santa outfit(calling it as I see it) sales more than normal. Then maybe they should consider trying an Easter or St. Patrick's skin in the coming months.
I don't want that, about as much as some of you don't want to see more skin in the game. Not shaming other people for liking what they like is probably better for the game. Especially if that thing is generating sales. Broke ass MMOs go P2W then die.
I am still going to meme on Sufferton, but if they did something else like it, and it sold well, that would be good for all of us. Chain mail bikinis might be good for all of us too...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Bewbs and Peen are one thing, but I draw the line at that cutsie bullcrap lmao
Has anyone asked for peen?
I mean, jumping around as a male in first person playing Conan Exiles to do the "helicopter" for the lols is one thing... I just have not seen anyone ask for it.
Unless you count the time that I pointed out that an enforced nudity server is a sure fire way to prevent stream sniping on twitch. XD
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Since my fellow arguer is both a cheap (first hit on google) and lazy (cant be assed to link the citation from the wiki article of said first result) debater who cannot cite their own sources while making possibly valid criticisms. Here is the only actual study cited in the Wikipedia article with regards to genre population.
https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/
This one study got spread around in multiple places and reported on by other news outlets. There is a lot of research relative to general gender ratios in gaming. Significantly less in regards to genres specifically. I personally find some of their methods for compiling this study debatable. I will not call it a bad study, but one that needs a few more friends (other independent studies with more rigorous sampling methods) for anyone to call the data conclusive fact.
In either case even if you want to make the argument that women are a lot more of a minority in games. If you take a look at that very study as 100% fact. It begs the question, why is the ratio so low for mmo's when they are very much social driven games and that is the main driver for gaming for women, according to that study?
To me that's definitely a sign of untapped potential. I won't pretend I know why, but possible surrounding social factors and perception issues caused by the way the industry currently operates certainly are obvious places to investigate and consider.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Thats...actually hilarious and a pretty solid prevention to having a streamer server honestly
Sure, I can jive with that reasoning. But it's much harder to see suppressed demand and suppressed subscriptions as a result of creating a cultural environment that feels more and more traditionally like a boys club.
Again I am not saying that is what is currently happening. But the more chain mail bikinis one adds to the collection relative to other things, the more a cultural theme begins to emerge. It can be off putting for some people after a certain point.
And therefore again, it pays to keep a more balanced approach in the long run to shape exactly what you want your consumer culture to look like even if it means certain cosmetics sell less.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
I'd totes rock the chainmail codpiece
This is true.
Unfortunate, but true.
There is almost no non-academic value in looking at anything at all from an over all computer game perspective. We are not executives at Activision, Ubisoft or EA (we all still have souls, you see). The only actual useful data is genre specific - or even game specific.
I am not about to call the data from that specific study conclusive fact. Unless every single person playing games is counted, I wouldn't call any figures conclusive fact. However, it is data that has more validity to it right now, today, in discussing Ashes, than saying women make up 45% of all gamers.
Yeah. more studies in that area would be great. Good luck getting funding right now on any social study that is using a binary gender paradigm though.
So, since it is the only data we have, and there is no real hope of getting more relevant data in the near future, it is the best and only data we have, and so we need to accept it as such - faults and all.
For now.
As a somewhat logically minded person, I assume you agree with all of the above. This is a valid discussion point.
Perhaps the first thing to note is that at least if you go by the data we have, fantasy MMO's have the highest proportion of female players of any online genre.
While nothing conclusive can be taken from this, one very real possibility could be that as a generalization, females are less likely to play online games as males are, but the social aspects of fantasy MMO's attracts those that do play online games to the genre.
It may well be that to attract more female gamers to MMOs like Ashes, work needs to be done to attract women to online gaming in general first, and from there many will opt to play fantasy MMO's as the most appealing genre of online game.
Off-putting to certain people is not reason enough to restrict anything. Plenty of us have made our views on Suffertron clear, yet I don't think it's going to keep us from playing.
I would wager that even if they released a different cute stuffed animal mount every month for the life of the game. Such cosmetics would not ruin the game, so long as the game play is actually good. The same could be said for cosmetics that show skin.
I think you would just see a lot more use of the "/spit" emote...
I don't want to see them restrict themselves to make a few loud voices happy. That is where we come back to the SJW problem that started this thread. If they hear a lot of yelling on Twitter about how the cosmetics show too much skin, yet they sold more that month than any other... I think they should listen to the sales. Just how I feel.
Wildstar is dead. Darkfall is dead. If it meant I had to deal with naked dudes running around on "My little Pony" mounts to play those games again. I would deal with it.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.