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Dev Discussion #39 - Griefing

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  • Stretch wrote: »
    It depends on the type of griefing. If its a player camping a quest or trade route to get some easy kills/loot, I think that is OK as its a player problem with a player solution being to kill the person doing it / rallying people to help you out. However sometimes there are griefing issues that requires CM/GM intervention.
    2 Examples I can think of are:
    In Alpha 1, there were people killing other players during a loading screen when they teleported to the other islands. So the player would just load in dead. This is using a non-mechanic (the loading screen) to grief players. I think Lt.Toast ended up sorting that in the end and this wouldn't be a problem during release as there wouldn't be loading screens if you are sailing between continents.

    Another example I can think of is in Archeage. A background to their mechanics for anyone who hasn't played are: You craft a trade pack in one zone and you deliver it to another zone for gold. How much gold you get depends on the pack you craft + the demand for that pack. The demand for the pack is based on how many other players are delivering that pack. There is a bit more too it but for this example that is the quick version of it.
    So I remember players were blocking the only road that lead into the city where you deliver the pack so no one could use it to bring their packs in. Which caused the demand to go up. This would be fine itself as the solution would be to destroy the blockade however it was in a peace zone so you couldn't break the blockade. This is an example of where 2 in game mechanics (supply/demand of tradepacks & peace zones) don’t compliment each other and would require GM intervention to destroy the blockade.

    My summary is: in-game griefing is OK as long as player problems have player solutions.

    The next point to talk about is: Griefing / Harassment in chat.
    I’m sure most (if not all) of the people reading this has experienced some form of harassment. It varies from game to game and usually is a lot worse if you are female but regardless, if you’ve ganked people in Gw2’s WvW or flanked some enemies in Planetside 2 or just straight up played WoW’s arenas, I’m sure you’ve received chat harassment. At the end of the day it’s a good rule of thumb to just laugh, screencap it to share with friends and block/report the player doing it, however it doesn’t really help foster a quality non-toxic community If the player in question isn’t punished.

    I loved League of Legend's Tribunal system and think a similar system should be implemented.
    So players who are in good standing could sign up and review cases of reported chat harassment. It would show relevant logs so there can be clear context given and then they would have the option to either Punish, Pardon or Skip. X-amount of players would vote and if the majority say “Punish” then the case would be forwarded to a GM to be reviewed and the GM would have the final say on what ends up happening. I think this would help filter out proper reports vs reporting for disliking someone or people trying to dodge the chat filters by misspelling hate terms, racial slurs, overall toxic behavior vs “this player killed me so my guild will report him” etc.

    I don’t think there should be compensation in game for being apart of it. Maybe a forum badge or statistics like “Players Punished” (if you guessed right) and “Longest Tribunal Streak” which would be how many punish, pardon, skip cases you chose correctly in a row etc.

    Sorry I don't agree with this and think its a stupid idea. Human review is important but any system like Dota or league with systems that give players bad standing is just really stupid in a mmo. We all already saw that with new world, those systems do not work. You need to be an adult when you are playing a mmo and be mindful of the people you play with rather than askign for police on a mmo or automatic ban system.

    YOU need to put the effort into getting to know your community and make friends that you enjoy playing with. If you are getting pvp'd in a pvp game that is not worth reporting unless they are abusing a bug or huge exploit. If you are being targeted by a entire guild for no reason and can not escape from them no matter what than you can contact a gm. Too many people do things piss off people and don't realize consequences happen which can revolve around pvp.
  • Only way i'd somewhat agree with that "player reputation" BS. Is the person that gets reported can counter report you and if it shows that you were apart of things in any way like pving them and got mad for whatever reason and wanted to use other methods. You get severely punished for trying to do a false report. They would have to look at a lot of the details and the report player can also provide their proof if needed. So that way unless they are 100% innocent and being truly harassed in the worst way they will never think of hitting the report button else they are the ones that get the worst experience for a false report.
  • DarknezzzDarknezzz Member
    edited January 2022
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    I agree 100% needs to have a good balance of pvp, not where everyone is attacking senselessly every second, but not where you don't see any pvp outside of guild decs and wars.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Kind of a loaded question as non-consentional pvp where the victim was not taunting or stealing your mobs or anything wrong would be griefing. But this would also cover most of open world pvp. As consentional pvp usually happens in arenas, bgs, duals, gvg, sieges, basically anything except random open world pvp.
  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member
    edited January 2022
    If Dev Discussion #38 was Holidays, then this thread should be Dev Discussion #39 shouldn't it? Yes, I am available for Alpha 1 testing. I am surprised Noaani didn't beat me to this post.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    As a open world pvp Lover I understand what you say,but no so many people like this,being in a bad day,you try to relax and someone kill you for no reason and if that happens several times can make you quit the game,and these game visión clearly Is not a full pvp game but a game for everyone. It's true that corrupción punish a lot and I okay with that,you become basically a killer in the world,but what devs needs to give reason to players to become a killer,basically risk-reward,these reason could be having good farming points for XP and for resources, dungeons that áre easy to contest,zones that gives different perks besides castles, like a zone that enhance a profession or gives the holder some combat/económical perks(could be a tower that enhance your magical Powers e.g). If you have a Lot of objectives in the game that involve pvp less people Will kill people for Zero reasons and big punishment.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    As a open world pvp Lover I understand what you say,but no so many people like this,being in a bad day,you try to relax and someone kill you for no reason and if that happens several times can make you quit the game,and these game visión clearly Is not a full pvp game but a game for everyone. It's true that corrupción punish a lot and I okay with that,you become basically a killer in the world,but what devs needs to give reason to players to become a killer,basically risk-reward,these reason could be having good farming points for XP and for resources, dungeons that áre easy to contest,zones that gives different perks besides castles, like a zone that enhance a profession or gives the holder some combat/económical perks(could be a tower that enhance your magical Powers e.g). If you have a Lot of objectives in the game that involve pvp less people Will kill people for Zero reasons and big punishment.

    They have literarily said the game isn't for everyone. It is a pvp game, yes someone can camp you but if thy are doing that like 7 times there are major consequences and active in game bounty hunters.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Darknezzz wrote: »
    I've been a world pvp player for like 11 years (in Perfect World and WoW), or at least i used to be, until blizzard completely eliminated this feature.
    I think a lot of things about this topic, some of them are definitely unpopular opinions, but, in the end of the day i guess it all comes down to:

    U should balance corruption, period. Corruption has to be strong enough to minimize no sense free griefing, but not too strong as to kill world pvp. I know there will have a lot of contents ''corruption free'', but i guess world pvp has to occur also outside those contents, in dispute for farm spots for example.

    I'm just sick of games balanced to please carebears, and i want to play again a MMO where the open world pvp is a strong feature. If u dont wanna be disturbed when u are doing anything, pls go to FFXIV, WoW or any other MMO that allows you turn off the pvp, but don't try to impose this game vision in Ashes, because this game CLEARLY is not being made for players like u. Please, i dont wanna sound rude.

    And please, dont tell me :''u can kill anybody, just go ahead and deal with the consequences''. In a game when u have a 400% penalty in your first kill u DONT WANT to kill anybody.

    "Dude, the person will fight back your agression, they need it to reduce their own death penalty'' No, if the corruption is this punitive, nobody will fight back any shit, because the attacker will NEVER take the risk to receive a 400% penalty. The players will know that the attacker wont finish the kill, and then u have a game with no world pvp besides the events.

    Balance corruption, but be careful on this, that's all.

    And come on... we problably wont see the most gamebreaker kind of griefing: Kill someone over and over again to the point of not letting her play the game, because when u die u will spawn far away.

    As a open world pvp Lover I understand what you say,but no so many people like this,being in a bad day,you try to relax and someone kill you for no reason and if that happens several times can make you quit the game,and these game visión clearly Is not a full pvp game but a game for everyone. It's true that corrupción punish a lot and I okay with that,you become basically a killer in the world,but what devs needs to give reason to players to become a killer,basically risk-reward,these reason could be having good farming points for XP and for resources, dungeons that áre easy to contest,zones that gives different perks besides castles, like a zone that enhance a profession or gives the holder some combat/económical perks(could be a tower that enhance your magical Powers e.g). If you have a Lot of objectives in the game that involve pvp less people Will kill people for Zero reasons and big punishment.

    They have literarily said the game isn't for everyone. It is a pvp game, yes someone can camp you but if thy are doing that like 7 times there are major consequences and active in game bounty hunters.

    Just don't fight back poof they are red
  • And another complete unpopular opinion: I dont think u should get red in your first kill in someone with the same level as u. I guess u should kill some players around your level to be corrupted. obviously this should not apply when u kill a low level.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    It's not griefing to me, no matter the intent of the other player, if it's intended gameplay from the developers. Even repetitively killing an enemy newbie in a guild war is not griefing, for example, if the devs are ok with it. The key word here is "intended" though. Sometimes game systems aren't completely thought through, and actions that aren't exploits or cheats can still be bad for the game and toxic in nature. It's up to the developers to address that asap and make a statement telling players not to do it, and of course patch it.

    Any exploitation of bugs should be harshly punished and can be considered griefing in some cases, or just cheating in others.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Only way i'd somewhat agree with that "player reputation" BS. Is the person that gets reported can counter report you and if it shows that you were apart of things in any way like pving them and got mad for whatever reason and wanted to use other methods. You get severely punished for trying to do a false report. They would have to look at a lot of the details and the report player can also provide their proof if needed. So that way unless they are 100% innocent and being truly harassed in the worst way they will never think of hitting the report button else they are the ones that get the worst experience for a false report.

    Automated systems don't work, so unless you want a GM to read through 20,000 petitions, it's hard to say who is or isn't innocent. If someone is harassing you in chat, that what ignore is for. World of Warcraft had a report system for chat that would silence the person and it got abused all the time. Didn't work as intended.
  • I would say that griefing is not simply killing a player who simply doesn't want to PVP. It would also be griefing if you stole a resource of mine. Now to clarify, each game had its own etiquette. In World of Warcraft, if I was mining a node, all the ore in the node was mine. It was deemed rude if you mined at the same time as me. Now, after it respawned, that was fine, but if the node had 3 ore and you took 1 ore so I only got 2 ore that could be viewed as griefing.

    In Everquest, it could be a challenge to get experience for your character and finding monsters appropriate for your level so groups would camp areas waiting for the mobs to respawn. If a group claimed an area as "camped" for those who remember that term, killing a mob was deemed rude and could get you killed by the group.

    Griefing is a matter of perspective. I can see killing a player half your level as griefing. I could also argue that on a PVP server, before Blizzard got rid of them, that killing Horde players was my patriot duty as an Alliance member. In Eve Online there was safe space and no law space. You could say in safe space and play the game never having to PVP and Corcord would come destroy the person who attacked you. If you chose to go to the lawless space, you made that choice. They incentivized players to go to those regions and fight over resources because the best materials were in that area of the game. AOC could also do that by putting high end materials in certain regions of the game and common materials in other regions.
  • Darknezzz wrote: »
    And another complete unpopular opinion: I dont think u should get red in your first kill in someone with the same level as u. I guess u should kill some players around your level to be corrupted. obviously this should not apply when u kill a low level.

    i 9001% AGREE WITH THIS.
  • Boanergese wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Only way i'd somewhat agree with that "player reputation" BS. Is the person that gets reported can counter report you and if it shows that you were apart of things in any way like pving them and got mad for whatever reason and wanted to use other methods. You get severely punished for trying to do a false report. They would have to look at a lot of the details and the report player can also provide their proof if needed. So that way unless they are 100% innocent and being truly harassed in the worst way they will never think of hitting the report button else they are the ones that get the worst experience for a false report.

    Automated systems don't work, so unless you want a GM to read through 20,000 petitions, it's hard to say who is or isn't innocent. If someone is harassing you in chat, that what ignore is for. World of Warcraft had a report system for chat that would silence the person and it got abused all the time. Didn't work as intended.

    That is why my post is against automatic reports banning people and putting people in the bad category automatically. Reports are important for the right reasons though.
  • My answer depends on the context of the game. In AoC, the vast majority of the game environment is pvx. I think there's a contract formed when you create a character that this is the world you're asserting yourself into, and thus take on the knowledge that you are fair game.

    So, in that context 'griefing' seems like the repeated killing of 'innocents' (greens) where they are not posing a threat to your objectives. Killing other gatherers in an area with necessary material for your crafting / guild objectives is totally understandable.

    Standing over a level 10 green as a level 50 group and repeatedly kill the green. Griefing.
    Repeatedly following that green and killing him as he's trying to escape. Griefing.
    Following that green into town and bragging about killing him in chat. Griefing.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • ignitarignitar Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Griefing is just too broad of a term. Is taking someone's ore node or killing them over and over griefing? Depends on who you ask, but I think not.

    ArcheAge - cart blocking trade routes became a thing, and while some hated it others found it extremely enjoyable. Easily patched if they felt the need.
    WoW - people dispelling world buffs, again easily patched if they wanted.
    WoW - people entering your raid instance in order to prevent you from entering yourselves. Definitely griefing.
    Also scammers, are they griefing? Is someone who slanders you over text to others griefing?


    Really it just comes down to what the developers allow. Spawn camping lowbies? This can be addressed with game design, or rules that a GM must then use valuable time on to enforce. If you want to sit on a trade route line with a whole guild camping and controlling the area some may see that was griefing, others as content. There is a fine line between griefing and emergent play and I urge caution when branding something to be griefing.
  • ElwendryllElwendryll Member
    edited January 2022
    So, first, what's the definition of griefing? To me, it's any action that is intended to prevent someone from enjoying the game.

    Many actions will elicit negative emotions for the recipient/victim, it's a pvp game after all. I think the important factor is the effort vs reward.

    Examples I consider okay :
    • Two people have a history and "dislike" each other (it can just be a RP rivalry without actual hard feelings), they attempt to kill each other whenever they meet in open-world, even if there is no loot, and then they resume whatever they were doing. The reward is satisfaction, and entertaining the "rivalry", it benefits the RP.
    • You are attempting to go to a specific, very valuable farming spot, but someone is already there, they kill you whenever you try to contest the spot. You give up after a couple deaths, they keep farming uncontested, for now.

    Examples I consider NOT okay:
    • Someone offended you a while ago, you kill them on sight, and you figure out their respawn location, you kill them repeatedly everytime they try to get out, they eventually log off, you spent 20 minutes doing that, and didn't get any meaningful reward for it, but it was worth it, right? That'll teach them.
    • That guy is still on the same farming spot, you have no chance to beat them, you know it, but you keep going back again and again, you welcome the exp debt, because you know they're increasing their corruption. They eventually just go away, leaving you the spot, you're actually worse off than when you started, but it was worth it, right?

    I think a key aspect of griefing is that it's often a lose/lose situation, one person will go out of their way to "hurt" someone, wasting their own time to make sure someone isn't having fun. If something is unfair, making the experience bad for someone, I don't think we can call it griefing if there is a clear benefit for the perpetrator. To be called griefing and be considered "unacceptable", an action's main purpose must be "harming" someone else, and/or it must imply a significant effort for no meaningful "reward". Griefing is targeted at the player and not the character they play, it's the human being that you're trying to harm.

  • Hmmm. I should add, thinking about what @Elwendryll articulated, that griefing excludes any action taken against a red toon.

    Kill them repeatedly and relentlessly on sight to your heart’s content.

    This is the way.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • OsFurOsFur Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    players are toxic.
    they confuse pvp with nuisance.
    corruption will not solve the problem.
    the pvp player is a frustrated fool in his life who gets his pleasure by preventing others from progressing.
    he only likes the unequal fight.
    the only solution is the tag that we would be free to activate or not during the leveling period, and that would automatically activate at the maximum level
    𝐎𝐬𝐬𝐚 𝐭𝐮𝐚 𝐬𝐮𝐛 𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐛𝐮𝐬 𝐦𝐞𝐢𝐬 𝐜𝐫𝐞𝐩𝐢𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐭
  • OzijakOzijak Member
    edited January 2022
    I spend my RL life living as an upstanding citizen. But in games, I like to unleash my frustrations from the retail world hahaha & am gank happy. I am all for ganking and glad there is a mechanic for it in the game and the griefing nature of ganking, being camped repeatedly, I feel the corruption system will deal with quite well.

    There are other ways to grief too, not just killing people. Imo, it is when any system is abused and taken too far to prevent or severely hamper someone from enjoying and playing the game, their way. Some examples I can forsee in Ashes:
    1. Repeatedly targeting the same people in freehold/node/caravan raids, taking a percentage of their gathered or refined materials, eventually leaving them with very very little and wasting hours of their time to point they no longer want to play. Perhaps you can put on quickly rising diminishing returns on this if you keep doing it to the same player/group.
    2. Bodyblocking, if groups get together they could prevent people from getting past areas, particularly in open world dungeons etc. A solution to this New World did well was putting away your weapon let you phase through people.

    I feel there are likely going to be numerous ways to grief we haven't seen or thought of yet in Ashes as its still in development, and the best way to manage it is active GMs. This was mentioned as a goal in an early interview I watched and I really hope is still the goal. Perhaps even recruit them from the player base, set strict rules and harshly punish anyone who exploits their powers and reward them for helping others and help making the game a better place.

    Then if the issue is bigger then what a GM can handle they can pass it up the chain and it can be hotfixed or addressed in the next patch depending on the urgency.

    One thing I am concerned about griefing the game and its players are people using exploits to get economic/item advantages. New World was ruined by this and I really hope the back end system lets the Ashes team track things very easily, if someone suddenly gets a lot of gold it gets flagged to look at, item duplications, there are so many.

    I think active GMs with alerts from out of the ordinary gameplay patterns, as well as people creating tickets for help.
  • AetiusAetius Member
    edited January 2022
    I am making this comment prior to reading any other comment on these forums, Reddit, or Discord, in order to minimize their influence on my brief thoughts.

    I very much enjoy the thought of the current system in theory. I would like PvP to be a present risk and opportunity throughout the world, save for some few sanctuary locations and protected pockets available at key locations; perhaps city temples, one's own freehold outside of war-time, a noob-spawn location, etc.

    I would consider "griefing" to be repeatedly killing a player or otherwise continuously or significantly hindering their progress and presence. I do not suggest that griefing should be eliminated, and I do not consider standard sporadic PvP to be griefing. The current system of punishment for the non-consensual slaying of non-combatant players appears, on paper, to be sufficient. If a player is personally motivated, to such an intense degree, to kill another player that they willingly accept incurring increasing penalties while putting themselves at risk and placing a target on their back, this should be reasonably permitted.

    Players should not be able to simply tick a toggle to entirely evade all PvP content and risk. They should be able to seek aid from others, rely on a bounty system, relocate, and make an effort to avoid hostile oafs when a situation presents itself. Let the world live. Sharding/phasing is not a tolerable solution as is evidenced by games such as WoW.

    Where would I draw the line? I would not appreciate if there were a quick or easy way to remove corruption from oneself or a friend, effectually permitting beast-brained savages to run rampant, annihilating lowbies or travelling in unopposed hordes to commit regional genocide on a regular basis. This should not be an efficient method for such aggressors to farm anything, and it should result in undesirable corruption consequences.

    In contrast to the above, I would advocate for shorter-term negative impacts for a measly murder or two of one's unsavoury adversaries when spotted in the field. As I understand it, this is how the current concept is designed.

    EDIT:
    •On a related note, non-combatants should be able to accidentally strike their attacker a few times or inflict a small portion of overall damage to the attacker's health before their state converts to combatant. Having a combatant run into your AoE directed at some rodent shouldn't change this.
    •There is also a possible issue of combatants getting themselves to very low health, jumping into your attack, converting your status to combatant, and giving their buds the green light to murder you without risk.
    •More than exact enemy player health uncertainty, there should be a system guard in place to prevent aggressors from reducing you to very low health and having a mob finish you off, keeping the aggressor clear of corruption.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    For me, griefing only exists where the victim is powerless to retaliate.
    As long as the community has access to tools to exact justice, I think it's best to allow communities to establish their own standards.
    This allows the community the freedom to establish a spectrum of standards - maybe these standards could be governed by each node?

    Of course, give GM's the ability to step in to pause/suspend any big situation that gets out of hand (i.e. if players start exploiting loopholes, etc.) for situations where the in-game systems cannot handle (yet).

    I struggle the most on this topic when it comes to Trash Talking - for some people, it's fun to try to get under other people's skin and undermine their mental state (try to make people crack). For others this is a really negative behaviour that doesn't contribute to their play at all. There is no rule you can enforce that will please both parties - this is why I suggest giving tools for subcommunities to establish their own standards.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    CROW3 wrote: »
    My answer depends on the context of the game. In AoC, the vast majority of the game environment is pvx. I think there's a contract formed when you create a character that this is the world you're asserting yourself into, and thus take on the knowledge that you are fair game.

    So, in that context 'griefing' seems like the repeated killing of 'innocents' (greens) where they are not posing a threat to your objectives. Killing other gatherers in an area with necessary material for your crafting / guild objectives is totally understandable.
    That's not really the way social contracts work.
    I'd give a couple very easy irl examples, but the mods always get mad when I do that.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    My answer depends on the context of the game. In AoC, the vast majority of the game environment is pvx. I think there's a contract formed when you create a character that this is the world you're asserting yourself into, and thus take on the knowledge that you are fair game.

    So, in that context 'griefing' seems like the repeated killing of 'innocents' (greens) where they are not posing a threat to your objectives. Killing other gatherers in an area with necessary material for your crafting / guild objectives is totally understandable.
    That's not really the way social contracts work.
    I'd give a couple very easy irl examples, but the mods always get mad when I do that.

    Pm me we can discuss.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • on an mmo, the most painful is the leveling stage, I would like to not have this chore, start the game directly at the maximum level.
    I hate being low level, and only enjoy the game at max level.
    if on top of that i'm prevented by pvp players i get angry and leave the game.
    I would love the idea of a tag or some other form of protection, which would allow me to level my character quietly.
    Novus ordo seclorum
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    Body-blocking doors and NPCs in a regular non-combatant setting I consider griefing actually. I suppose there could be some fringe cases where it serves a gameplay purpose. I think the game will be better if you allow people to pass through each other in building areas in nodes. Basically remove collision detection when within the footprint of a building and the player is non-combatant. It's just way to easy for people who like to grief to just stand there and play innocent while griefing for the luls.
    Dygz wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    My answer depends on the context of the game. In AoC, the vast majority of the game environment is pvx. I think there's a contract formed when you create a character that this is the world you're asserting yourself into, and thus take on the knowledge that you are fair game.

    So, in that context 'griefing' seems like the repeated killing of 'innocents' (greens) where they are not posing a threat to your objectives. Killing other gatherers in an area with necessary material for your crafting / guild objectives is totally understandable.
    That's not really the way social contracts work.
    I'd give a couple very easy irl examples, but the mods always get mad when I do that.

    If one of your examples is about sex, then it's not comparable at all :wink:

    I am with @CROW3 on this one. There is always an option to play another game where the intended gameplay doesn't include being ganked at random.
  • Superplus wrote: »
    on an mmo, the most painful is the leveling stage, I would like to not have this chore, start the game directly at the maximum level.
    I hate being low level, and only enjoy the game at max level.
    if on top of that i'm prevented by pvp players i get angry and leave the game.
    I would love the idea of a tag or some other form of protection, which would allow me to level my character quietly.

    Can't tell if joking or serious... I hope it's a joke.
    sJ4g8FI.png
  • Griefing = Anyone using Stuffertons or that fricking Corgi.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
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