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Discussion; secondary class doesn't matter.

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  • Noaani wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Warlocks do not Summon weapons.
    Songcallers do not Summon weapons.
    Falconers do not Summon weapons.
    These are all fairly bold statements, with absolutely no basis or foundation.

    Warlocks may indeed summon weapons, but they also may not. We do not know. What we do know is that classes with a summoner secondary may grant augmented skills that summon weapons.

    There are indeed IP's out there in which a Warlock is able to summon weapons. D&D comes to mind.

    It would be 100% within the scope of the class system for a warlock - which is a mage (elemental based magic) and a summoner secondary - to summon elemental wands, or perhaps a staff.

    Even though we have no reason to assume this will be the case, we also literally have no reason at all to assume that this would not be the case.

    As such, comments like the above are incredibly out of line.

    I was also thinking that's quite the assumption. They have talked about summoning weapons but not being able to equip said summoned weapons. So I've been thinking that maybe this is how summoner direct damage abilities will work. By "summoning" a big axe or bow for a sweeping slash or ranged shot.
    Probably more temporary than the summoned pets, but could still stuck around for a while. For example the bow is good for three shots before the ability goes on cooldown or something like that.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2
    They have said that different augment "schools" from a secondary archetype can have different effects for different primaries. So the summoning school of augments from a summoner could have a different effect on mage spells than it does for tank abilities.

    They have also stated before that some augments could completely change an activated ability, but we haven't seen this yet.

    If you're up for a read, I compiled a ton of augment/secondary info here

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51718/archetype-roles-i-swear-im-not-crazy/p1
    I haven't re-visited your link, but...
    What you wrote above is an excellent summary of the design.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okay, I understand the scope and the fact it is theory with no actual footage, skills or pets to examine.

    However,

    In my mind, the Shaman Lifesteal Pets would offer no more than the equivalent of a health pot per tick. If you must know the concept comes from my BDO Fairy.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2
    I also must state that Shaman lifestealers don't stack together and don't stack with health pots. Players under lifesteal Shaman pet regeneration can't use health pots either.

    Reference for the healing parameters: Age of Conan.

    Edit: interestingly, my mate posted a Conan gameplay video and when I searched for it both age of Conan came up and ashes of creation - it was the first time I discovered Ashes of Creation :D
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I doubt there will be a health pot restriction associated with Active Skills and augments.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I was also thinking that's quite the assumption. They have talked about summoning weapons but not being able to equip said summoned weapons. So I've been thinking that maybe this is how summoner direct damage abilities will work. By "summoning" a big axe or bow for a sweeping slash or ranged shot.
    Probably more temporary than the summoned pets, but could still stuck around for a while. For example the bow is good for three shots before the ability goes on cooldown or something like that.
    Bladecallers will Summon blades.
    Rangers already summon arrows.
    Clerics already summon whips.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2
    So far, the only constant stance you've maintained since my return is doubt. Yet you seem so certain of your shifting stances, so certain you always shift lol.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2
    It's not a shifting stance. It depends on the details.
    The Cleric's Castigate whip is not a Summons.
    But, when a Cleric casts Castigate, a whip appears.
    Of course, we have to see if Castigate retains the appearance of a whip when Summoner augments are applied.
    Most likely it will change to match the theme of a Shaman.

    What I continue to doubt is what you mean by:
    "Furthermore, even a summoner with all pets active will have summoned weapons available with the summoner augment."

  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You keep making statements about the cleric which is not a summoner. On top of that you keep referencing skills that are under combat upgrade. Neither I nor you know what has been changed since A1. Feedback and input at that time was not met with a constant moat, walls of texts and towers of ignorance by a digger.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2
    What you mean is a Cleric Primary Archetype is not a Summoner Primary Archetype.
    When a Cleric casts Castigate, a whip appears.
    When a Cleric casts Divine Censure, a spear appears.
    So, if that's what you mean by "summoning" weapons, yes, Clerics can "summon" weapons. Rangers "summon" arrows.

    A Shaman is a Cleric/Summoner.
    When a Summoner augment is applied to Castigate, the appearance of Castigate will change - most likely to be a spirit, rather than a weapon.
    When a Summoner augment is applied to Divine Censure, the appearance of Divine Censure will change - most likely to be a spirit, rather than a weapon.

    When you say Summoner, there is no way to tell whether you are referring to the Summoner Primary Archetype or the Summoner Secondary Archetype.

    Certainly, if a Summoner Primary Archetype has all of their non-augmented Summons active, if a Fighter augment is applied to a different Summoner Active Skill, we can expect blades to appear.
    We should also expect blades to appear around a Summons if a Fighter augment is applied to a Summons Active Skill.

    With Summoner/Summoner, we still have to learn whether Summoner Primary Archetype Summons weapons.
    And we still have to learn what a Conjurer Conjures.

    So...I'm waiting for you to provide the details of your concept:
    "Even a summoner with all pets active will have summoned weapons available with the summoner augment."
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm not sure why you are determined to waste my time. In fact, I could have written your response. It has been the same response since the debate began.

    You have my concepts. I do not do skill rosters. I do not see why I alone must build my personal class, am I the only Shaman?

    In all honesty, I want the concept built, tested, balanced and refined by people who either match my experience or have more experience than me.

    I also want people who have never seen the unique concept before to give feedback when if it is seen.

    Unlike you, I am not scared of change and I don't cling to the past. When Noanni gives me a reference (rare these days) I review the reference. When I give you a reference you ignore my input and decide to waste everyone's else's time.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    I was also thinking that's quite the assumption. They have talked about summoning weapons but not being able to equip said summoned weapons. So I've been thinking that maybe this is how summoner direct damage abilities will work. By "summoning" a big axe or bow for a sweeping slash or ranged shot.
    Probably more temporary than the summoned pets, but could still stuck around for a while. For example the bow is good for three shots before the ability goes on cooldown or something like that.
    Bladecallers will Summon blades.
    Rangers already summon arrows.
    Clerics already summon whips.

    So what makes you so sure that other */summoner classes won't also summon weapons.

    Keep in mind, you didn't say "we don't know if */summoner class will summon weapons or not. That would be a reasonable statement.

    Rather, you said;
    Dygz wrote: »
    Warlocks do not Summon weapons.
    Songcallers do not Summon weapons.
    Falconers do not Summon weapons.
    Which it seems has no actual basis or foundation.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2
    A reference to a class from a different game is mostly meaningless when it comes to Ashes classes.
    Because Ashes classes are built from the Archetype combos.
    Referencing classes from previous games is you clinging to the past rather than adhering to the changes the Ashes design presents.

    I'm trying to understand how your concept fits with the Ashes game design.
    But, if you don't want to explain how it fits with the Ashes game design, that's fine by me.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    A reference to a class from a different game is mostly meaningless when it comes to Ashes classes.
    Because Ashes classes are built from the Archetype combos.
    Referencing classes from previous games is you clinging to the past rather than adhering to the changes the Ashes design presents.

    I'm trying to understand how your concept fits with the Ashes game design.
    But, if you don't want to explain how it fits with the Ashes game design, that's fine by me.

    I always find it amusing when people ask others to explain themselves in a thread where the person in question refuses to explain them self.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    I hope Bard/Summoners can summon up to 3 other instruments to form a band. Liverpool accents would be appreciated.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz, the whole game is based on other games. This is my last entry here because I'm not about to deliver the components which you seem oblivious to. Clearly, you are just trying make issues when there are no issues.

    I hope when we can ignore people in game heals and buffs aren't supplied to the ignored so that no more of my time will be wasted by you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 3
    I wonder whose intstruments will linger longer - Bard/Summoner or Summoner/Bard?
    I think Bard/Summoner is more likely to be instruments and Summoner/Bard is more likely to be sirens/medusas.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Summoner/Bard is more likely to be sirens/medusas.

    Or the Grateful Dead. 🤯

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I thought that was Necros?
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Just need to place a restriction. It is in the highest interest to prevent both angelic and demonic Shaman Augments being used at the same time.

    The two halves would be too potent combined. It would create a monster.

    Cheers,
    Neu.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Also, I have merged the two shaman demonic pet options into one. The lifestealer will also tank in pve. The lifesteal regeneration should be HoT ratioted to equivalence of health pot across the same timeframe. Latter stage can be ignored if health pots are HoT already.

    Thanks for the brain storms ;)
    Neu.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    I wonder whose intstruments will linger longer - Bard/Summoner or Summoner/Bard?
    Why would you assume both have instruments?

    Steven has specifically said that bards are storytellers, not just musicians - and that the class will reflect this.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Furthermore, Demonic Shaman Pets will not heal the master. You would need two Demonic Shaman Pets to heal both
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 3
    Just need to clarify a point. Demonic Shaman Pets are not passive. The Lifesteal Shaman Regeneration is only active in combat and through marshal engagement. It is also prudent to give the Dominic Shaman Pet an AoE taunt rather than inbuilt threat generation. I don't want to conflict with the Tank Pet or the threat tables (obviously I know I will be on the threat tables and so will the Pet, I just mean I don't want the pet to replace an actual tank unless it is an emergency).

    In an ideal world the tick would be each second of marshal engagement.

    Thank you for the support.
    Neu.

    Edit: spelling mistake.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Due to the complications around terminologies (threat on a1 tank skills, and threat generation in general), I wonder if the Demonic Shaman Pet should generate hatred instead of threat. That way it can still tank for the Shaman and under the duration of taunt, but it would be useless to replace a tank with.

    Cheers and much love,
    Neu.
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    I love reading speculative posts such as this one! I also appreciate all the healthy debates and comments bouncing off of each other!

    I can't wait to see more on archetypes and classes in Ashes of Creation! I'm also SO excited to see what the design team has in store for class augments ^_^
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  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Thank you :)
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Demonic Shaman Pet also has a 'Soul Swap' function - an Out of Combat Resurrection Function for the Shaman.

    The Shaman can resurrect fallen allies after 'Soul Swap'.

    Soul Swap can't be activated in combat.

    Concept Based on Loremaster Phoenix from Lotro.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 5
    Shaman Resurrection Skill (in combat) will be in the Demonic Shaman Pet Skill Roster, plus AoE Taunt, AoE Charge and AoE Damage Abilities.

    Cheers,
    Neu.

    Edit: clarification.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 5
    Hatred debuff effect -25% Hit Chance for foes.

    Cheers,
    Neu.

    Edit: mistake.
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