Was it really necessary to necro this thread for that....
Apologies are due. I'm aware of that.
Just went through a deep rabbit hole at 5 am and HEY! the topic of secondary classes 3 years later is still relevant as ever with about 2 or 3 other threads discussing the topic on the first page as of the time I'm writing this.
I feel summoner one might be interesting in regards to secondaires and what they do i feel they have the biggest change with secondaries.
Summoner/Summoner = Summon mobs to right for them standard summoner pet class thing
Summoner/Fighter = Could summon weapons instead of pets and when summoned they get new skills based on the weapon they summoned they could last for x attacks or for a duration before needing to summon another one (GW2 had a system a bit like this which was realy nice however i dont think it got used to much due to being a little weaker imo for the mage due to stats allocation they were more for summoning for other people in alot of the cases)
Summoner/Bard = Could summon sprites onto players or mobs as buff/debuffs/dmg/heal for duration and could have special effects if x spell is used or have there own hot bar that the summoner can use to activate the special skill when they want.
I'm not convinced secondary class adds skill attributes. Last official statement said no stats from secondary. Unless the facet has changed, I do not think much of the secondary at all.
However, right now I don't even like any racial concepts so I might have to lose all my purchases and simply not play at all.
I'm not convinced secondary class adds skill attributes. Last official statement said no stats from secondary. Unless the facet has changed, I do not think much of the secondary at all.
However, right now I don't even like any racial concepts so I might have to lose all my purchases and simply not play at all.
Indeed.
My current assumption is that primary class will affect stat increases, but secondary will not.
I still see nothing at all offered by secondary class other than augments. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing.
It is perhaps worth pointing out that I expect there to be some builds that don't even use augments. Between spending points on buying skills and more points on upgrading them, I can see there being builds where augments that cost on top of that just don't factor in to it at all.
None of the above is to say that a character that specs heavily in to their secondary won't be drastically different to someone of the same primary that spec's heavily in to a different secondary. This thread was more about not spec'ing in to your secondary at all.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
What are "skill attributes"?
Augments don't add Active Skills.
I call the stats skill attributes because in other games you boost skill attributes by using a skill or weapon. I know ashes does not have such a system, however, I clarified with the second part by saying no stats from secondary. Either way, both systems add stats in different ways.
I understand you could build without using augments at all, last I heard augments change spell effects and are a horizontal progression. I do not see the face value right now because of the fact that I would build my toon around specific functions.
Due to the lack of info on augments right now, it is difficult to even glean how much a skill effect will be changed. In terms of Cc, I would have to take augments if thr class cc is not present or if the class cc only comes from augments.
I didn't realise the thread was from 2019 lol. I came here to fall on my sword which is quite apt for a necro thread. After years of investment though, it is very difficult to cut the actual cords
Cheers,
Neu
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well, augments change how you play your Primary Archetype.
When I played Cleric in Alpha One, I still found myself wanting to go Invis, like I typically do as a Rogue or Druid. So, even if I'm primarily healing via Hallowed Ground, I would want to add on to it an augment from the Stealth School.
We'll have to see where I would grab that augment from: x/Rogue Stealth School? Thieves' Guild augment? Py'Rai augment?
I could have a Cleric/Mage who adds Frost Damage augment from the Mage's Elemental School onto Hallowed Ground. In that case, I would be primarily healing with Hallowed Ground, but also be able to stack Frost Damage with the Mage/x in my group. Or with other x/Mages in my group.
In Ashes, part of the "specific functions" will often be about how you choose to synergize your Secondary Archetype augments with the other people in your group in order to stack damage types or healing or buffs while still primarily focused on your primary role.
I think summoner probaly best way to explain it since there skills could be most varied with summons.
Enchanter, Summon may no longer be pets they summon but more like spirits that attack to allies or enemies (Much like lulu pixie from league of legends) they wont be attackable pets however yoou might summon a fire spirit into allied weapons causing them to do bonus fire dmg, might be able to disenchant an enemy and distract it with a spirit that enchants the creature where it stand there doing nothing till it damaged, could enchant a weapon the enchanter has to become an animated sword
Necromancer Summon will be more undead focus and now causes debuffs that stats a decay or disease stats where other necromancer spell may interact with for example undead ghoul applies debuff called diseased (Reduce healing received by 5% stacks 10 times) the necromancer might alter an offensive spell of the summoner to rot that might now turn that into x stacks of disease into rot which is now is a DoT debuff that might slow the afflicted or they might get access to life stealing abilities
Brood warriors summons could be all tankying pets that are designed to take a beaten or defensive support buffs for the party
Shadowmancers summons are invisable shadows that dont appear till you get hit by them they might be stronger during night time aswell potentially
Conjurer might get the most variety of summons but they only realy do dmg from there summon and there normal spell might now fire from the summon you have up and that skill could be slightly different depending on the summoned pet.
Yeah, I mean, the summoner is a perfect start to examine, because, I would be a Female Py-Rai Shaman. I'm not sure how I want the Shaman to exist. I don't like Totems (Summoned), I don't like Personal Orbs (Summoned), I don't like Healing Pets (Summoned). I would hope that the summoner could go either pets or personal power (last I heard they could but most of the time summoner info is speculation and not stated by IS). Therefore, I do obviously want augments for the Py-Rai (Py-Rai nature and Shaman Nature Synergies). The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons), and the only way to limit, reduce or remove pets could be through secondary schools (4 per meld). Naturally, The Shaman will have 4 choices from the Summoner to choose from - I just hope there will be enough variation for me to settle on a playstyle.
I played the cleric in Alpha 1 because I naturally wanted to familiarise with the base for the Shaman. The Cleric could be changed by release but the experience was a positive one. I did play the Cultured Elves (Boring) because the Wood Elves (Py'Rai) weren't available at the time.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Mmmmn. Seems to me that you might want to be a Protector instead of a Shaman.
We should expect a Summoner to be Summoning something. Totems, Animals, Spirits, Orbs.
If you are trying to be a Nature-based Cleric with no "pets", Shaman probably is not the best choice.
You might be able to create what you want with a combo of Py'Rai augments and Religion augments.
I'm not convinced at all in fact Dygz. The reason is because, if all secondary augments change summons, all base summoner skills are summons and all racial, social and societal augments are summons then I have to state that the summoner class sounds one dimensional and absolutely awful because in effect you will be a one trick pony with different saddle styles but ultimately you still have a single saddle.
Anyway, my base is cleric and not a summoner. When we are told a tank augment can't replace a main tank or a cleric augment can't replace a cleric main, why are you under the impression a summoner secondary will be the exact same disposition as summoner main?
In effect, what you have stated is that build how you want is a falsehood. Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?
Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?
Until proven completely wrong, I'm expecting exactly that. A fairly restrictive system that only builds on 8 basic sets of skills, not really changing their core functions, but just adding/changing effects.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?
Until proven completely wrong, I'm expecting exactly that. A fairly restrictive system that only builds on 8 basic sets of skills, not really changing their core functions, but just adding/changing effects.
Well they do plan for potential to drastically change the way skills work. Even small changes can drastically change the way an ability works though.
I really want more information on the 4 schools for each class. Some, like summoner, are really hard to come up with what the 4 schools could be.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm not convinced at all in fact Dygz. The reason is because, if all secondary augments change summons, all base summoner skills are summons and all racial, social and societal augments are summons then I have to state that the summoner class sounds one dimensional and absolutely awful because in effect you will be a one trick pony with different saddle styles but ultimately you still have a single saddle.
Anyway, my base is cleric and not a summoner. When we are told a tank augment can't replace a main tank or a cleric augment can't replace a cleric main, why are you under the impression a summoner secondary will be the exact same disposition as summoner main?
In effect, what you have stated is that build how you want is a falsehood. Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?
Depends on what you mean by one-trick pony.
Primary Archetype Cleric is not a Summoner - obviously.
But, Summoner summons three types of "pets" (tank, dps, healing) - so you can expect at least 3 out of the 4 Schools to involve "pets" - and it's very likely the 4th will as well.
Class augments allow you to incorporate some of the identity of the Secondary Archetype. A Summoner summons things. You won't be a Cleric/Shaman. You will be a Cleric/Summoner. So, you should expect your Summoner augments to summon things.
Just because there are no archetypes or classes with Druid as part of the name does not mean you cannot effectively create a "druid".
What is said is that x/Summoner may not be the best way for you to build a "shaman" since you don't really want to Summon stuff.
If what you really want to be is a Cleric with some Nature abilities, it might be easier to do that with Py'Rai augments, Religion (Nature) augments, possibly Ranger augments (if you don't want "pets" involved) and possibly Social Org augments (if there is a Social Org deicated to Nature).
I don't know why you woud be expecting an x/Summoner not to Summon stuff.
It seems as though you just like the name Shaman.
I expect there to be a Threat augment School, a Damage Mitigation augment School, and a Damage dealing augment School for x/Tank. And, yes, I expect all 4 Schools to reflect the core of what a Tank/x does.
Just as we know so far that Mage has a Teleport augment School and an Elemental augment School. We can also expect some form of Mana drain/regen augment School for x/Mage.
I don't know why you woud be expecting an x/Summoner not to Summon stuff.
Seems to me that he is saying he doesn't expect summoners to ONLY summon stuff.
That is my expectation ass well.
The flavor text of the summoner says Two hands are good, but in the summoner's opinion, four hands are always better.
To me, this means that about half of a summoners power as a class will come from their pet, meaning the other half will still come from the summoner.
This means the summoner will still have some basic attacks they can perform, maybe some CC, along with summons abilities and abilities and/or commands for their summons.
It would be a little silly to think that every summoner ability summons some sort of pet.
The issue remains, and I am sorry to repeat myself, however, you get no stats from secondary. With the current stats and limited sources for stats I do not consider a physical/magic hybrid to even be viable because the stats will boost either physical or magic.
Therefore, my choices were very very narrow around my current theory crafts. A cleric and a summoner both are magic based.
You keep saying I should expect summons- I never said I don't want summons, I said I do not like healing pets, I don't like healing orbs and I don't like totems. It is totally conceivable to me that with 4 schools, building wide, multiple sources of augments etc means I can avoid what I do not like.
What I do not agree with is being told to play a completely different class when neither myself nor you have even seen the summoner class - let alone the fucking augment system.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
You keep saying "stats" - which is a meaningless term.
With Secondary Archetypes, we don't get new Active Skills. Instead we get augments.
Cleric augments provide some healing. Mage augments provide Teleports and Elemental damage.
Pretty much every Archetype is physical and magic based.
Rangers also use magic despite being classified as Martial rather than classified as Arcane.
You said you don't like Totems, Personal Orbs and Healing Pets.
Then you said you hope Shamans could either go pets or personal power.
Now, you say you specifically don't like healing orbs and healing pets or Totems.
So, no. You have not been at all clear about what you like or don't like or what you expect an x/Summoner to Summon that you would be OK with.
What are the 4 Summoner augment Schools you are expecting?
I didn't tell you to play a different class.
I said expect x/Summoners to Summon stuff. If you don't want to Suummon stuff, you might be better off choosing a different Secondary Archetype to fulfill your concept of "shaman".
That's a suggestion; not an order.
You said, "I do not see the face value right now because of the fact that I would build my toon around specific functions. Due to the lack of info on augments right now, it is difficult to even glean how much a skill effect will be changed."
And I'm saying, augments significantly change Active Skills. Mage augments add Teleportation and Elemental Damage. Cleric augments add Heals via the Life School and likely Life Drains through the Death School.
How much Elemental Damage and how much Healing we can't quantify, sure.
Just because the devs have labeled Cleric/Summoner with the name Shaman, does not mean that Cleric/Summoner is the class that will best fit your concept of "shaman".
Even if it turns out that Cleric/Summoner cannot fulfill your concept of "shaman", that does not mean you can't fulfill your concept of "shaman" with some other class. Just as the lack of a class labeled Druid does not mean it's impossible to build a character that strongly reflects the "druid" concept.
We won't know for certain until we have full details on the augment Schools for each Secondary Archetype and how those augments modify Active Skills.
I'm pleased you can quote my input but you miss my actual points. I never said I want green shoots to snare foes, autumn leave falls to blind foes, hemlock to poison foes, or do anything based on earth's idea of nature.
What I actual said was 'Py'Rai Nature and Shaman Nature'. I want you to understand that my actual idea of a true shaman is not a wood elf at all. However, I my options in Ashes are narrow because my interests are narrow.
I want you to explain why you believe a Cleric Based Shaman should use the exact same tools as a Summoner/Summoner.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
A Py'Rai is a Wood Elf so I don't understand how you can want to be a a female Py'Rai but your actual idea is not a Wood Elf at all.
I also have no clue what you think a Cleric-based Shaman is. You sometimes mention what you don't want as a Cleric-based Shaman, but then you contradict yourself.
I don't know what you think being a Shaman entails. What is "Shaman Nature"??
By Ashes terminology, a Shaman is a Cleric/Summoner; not a Summoner/Summoner.
In Ashes, a Shaman applies Summoner augments from the 4 Summoner augment Schools on top of Cleric Active Skills.
A Summoner/Summoner applies Summoner augments on top of Summoner Active Skills.
So, I do not believe that in Ashes, a Cleric-based Shaman can use the exact same tools as a Summoner/Summoner - nor have I indicated that is possible.
Your options for what you think a "shaman" is may be narrow.
We don't know whether the options in Ashes are too narrow to reflect your vision of "shaman" and we won't know until we have a comprehensive list of all of the augments.
Even if it turns out that you can't reflect your vision of "shaman" with x/Summoner augments, that does not mean it will be impossible for you to do so with augments from a different class or with Racial/Religion/Social Org augments.
We'll have to wait until we get a full list of augments to know the best path to building your vision of what a "shaman" is.
Again, similar to Druid. Just because there is not a class called Druid, that does not mean it's impossible to create a character that is very close to the "druid" concept.
You fail to twist the concepts in my head even while I'm stoned. Let me clear the haze.
Summoner (base) is a jack of all trades. Cleric (Base) is a Healer. Now, Cleric Augment gives life or death right now (High Priest and Necro for example). Now, the summoner already has the option to run tank pet, heal pet and dps pet without the augment. It is true you could probably choose what u wish to focus on.
What i do not understand is why you are adamant my idea of a shaman is not a heal pet which is already a summoner skill. Why the fuck would a summoner want to take an augment for something the base class already has? Surely a summoner wants more power to specific functions, either pet power or personal power. I would imagine one summoner school could add a generic pet which moulds to each base class. I do not believe the devs are so narrow minded to give 4 pets extra to summoner/summoner when there are only three roles. You seem to forget the best summon in game is currently slanted to be a Golem.
Sometimes I think you act like a clueless dimwit just to piss me off.
P.s concepts are subject to change and as of yet not even public. Only in wiki note form which in truth I have not read for some months. (Thank you, Lex).
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
Maybe you are too stoned to adequately express your thoughts.
I really have no clue how you are trying to apply what you just wrote.
A Summoner Primary Archetype can Summon three types of "pets": Tank, DPS and Support.
I don't understand why you mention Cleric augments.
A Cleric/Summoner does not get Cleric augments.
A Cleric/Summoner will have Summoner augments: most likely Summoning some form of "pet" that can either Tank, DPS or Support. And those Summoner augments will be applied on top of Cleric Active Skills.
You stated, "I don't like Totems (Summoned), I don't like Personal Orbs (Summoned), I don't like Healing Pets (Summoned)."
I didn't state that your idea of a Shaman isn't a healing pet, YOU stated that you don't like Healing Pets.
You also said, "I would hope that the summoner could go either pets or personal power."
As if you don't want to Summon pets and instead just want to use "personal power".
You seemingly confirm that by saying: "
The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons)"
Which seems to indicate that you don't want to Summon Tank "pets" or DPS "pets", either.
Which is why I said you should be expecting Summoners to Summon something.
You should be capable of clarifying what you mean: especially, what you do hope to do as a Shaman instead of focusing on what you don't want to do.
As a Cleric/Summoner what is it that you do want to Summon???
A Cleric/Summoner uses an augment that will reflect their Active Skills because it allows them to either stack effects, like 1.5x Heals, or to mix the effects.
If you add a Summoner augment for a Healing "pet" onto Divine Light, expect that a Healing Spirit might appear that does 1.5x Healing compared to a normal Divine Light.
If you add a Summoner augment for a Tank "pet" onto Divine Light, expect that a Tank Spirit might appear that covers the target and provides both Healing and Damage Mitigation.
x/Summoner has 4 augment Schools. It's the same 4 Schools regardless of the x/Summoner class.
The list of x/Summoner augments will be the same for every x/Summoner class.
But, each augment will perform differently depending on the specific Active Skill they are applied to.
Songcaller, Bladecaller, Shaman and Shadow Lord will all have the exact same list of Sumonner augments.
Mostly likely at least 3/4 of those augments will Summon some form of "pet".
But the same augment will affect the Active Skills of the Primary Archetype significantly differently.
Most likely, 3 of the Summoner augments Schools will be:
1: Tank "pets"
2: DPS "pets"
3: Support "pets"
4: ???
It could be that the 4th School is "Personal Power".
But where you say, "The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons)"...that sounds like you want to avoid "pets" and instead focus on "Personal Power".
If you want to focus on "Personal Power", there may be some other class that will fit your image of "shaman", but won't make you ignore 3 out of the 4 augment Schools.
Summoner/Summoner does not necessarily get extra pets.
Summoner augments applied to Summoner Active SKills could just make the pets they already Summoned bigger and more powerful.
I have not forgotten about the Golem.
A Golem is Summoned by 8 Summoner Primary Archetypes Channeling together...intended to be used during Sieges; not raids.
I don't understand why you find that relevant to this discussion.
A Summoner Primary Archetype can Summon three types of "pets": Tank, DPS and Support.
A Cleric/Summoner will have Summoner augments: most likely Summoning some form of "pet" that can either Tank, DPS or Support.
This is untrue, in it's entirety.
You are conflating a summoner primary archetype (will be able to summon tank, DPS or support pets) with a summoner secondary.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
What is it that you think x/Summoners will be Summoning?
What do you think a Bladecaller Calls?
What do you think a Falconer Summons?
What do you think a Conjurer Conjures?
I just want to know my best path to creating a caster dps with strong self heals and stealth.
Can you guys please argue about this instead:
Do I roll a Cleric primary/Rogue Secondary and use skill points to enhance the damage of my cleric active skills? Or is there a better way? Would a Cleric primary even be capable of filling a dps role? Perhaps a mage primary/rogue secondary and find other ways to achieve self-heals (religion, profession, etc)?
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Hi! I'm from your future in 2022. a release this years appears to be very unlikely. I would say a 2024 release would be our best bet.
Apologies are due. I'm aware of that.
Just went through a deep rabbit hole at 5 am and HEY! the topic of secondary classes 3 years later is still relevant as ever with about 2 or 3 other threads discussing the topic on the first page as of the time I'm writing this.
Summoner/Summoner = Summon mobs to right for them standard summoner pet class thing
Summoner/Fighter = Could summon weapons instead of pets and when summoned they get new skills based on the weapon they summoned they could last for x attacks or for a duration before needing to summon another one (GW2 had a system a bit like this which was realy nice however i dont think it got used to much due to being a little weaker imo for the mage due to stats allocation they were more for summoning for other people in alot of the cases)
Summoner/Bard = Could summon sprites onto players or mobs as buff/debuffs/dmg/heal for duration and could have special effects if x spell is used or have there own hot bar that the summoner can use to activate the special skill when they want.
However, right now I don't even like any racial concepts so I might have to lose all my purchases and simply not play at all.
Indeed.
My current assumption is that primary class will affect stat increases, but secondary will not.
I still see nothing at all offered by secondary class other than augments. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing.
It is perhaps worth pointing out that I expect there to be some builds that don't even use augments. Between spending points on buying skills and more points on upgrading them, I can see there being builds where augments that cost on top of that just don't factor in to it at all.
None of the above is to say that a character that specs heavily in to their secondary won't be drastically different to someone of the same primary that spec's heavily in to a different secondary. This thread was more about not spec'ing in to your secondary at all.
Augments don't add Active Skills.
I understand you could build without using augments at all, last I heard augments change spell effects and are a horizontal progression. I do not see the face value right now because of the fact that I would build my toon around specific functions.
Due to the lack of info on augments right now, it is difficult to even glean how much a skill effect will be changed. In terms of Cc, I would have to take augments if thr class cc is not present or if the class cc only comes from augments.
I didn't realise the thread was from 2019 lol. I came here to fall on my sword which is quite apt for a necro thread. After years of investment though, it is very difficult to cut the actual cords
Cheers,
Neu
When I played Cleric in Alpha One, I still found myself wanting to go Invis, like I typically do as a Rogue or Druid. So, even if I'm primarily healing via Hallowed Ground, I would want to add on to it an augment from the Stealth School.
We'll have to see where I would grab that augment from: x/Rogue Stealth School? Thieves' Guild augment? Py'Rai augment?
I could have a Cleric/Mage who adds Frost Damage augment from the Mage's Elemental School onto Hallowed Ground. In that case, I would be primarily healing with Hallowed Ground, but also be able to stack Frost Damage with the Mage/x in my group. Or with other x/Mages in my group.
In Ashes, part of the "specific functions" will often be about how you choose to synergize your Secondary Archetype augments with the other people in your group in order to stack damage types or healing or buffs while still primarily focused on your primary role.
Enchanter, Summon may no longer be pets they summon but more like spirits that attack to allies or enemies (Much like lulu pixie from league of legends) they wont be attackable pets however yoou might summon a fire spirit into allied weapons causing them to do bonus fire dmg, might be able to disenchant an enemy and distract it with a spirit that enchants the creature where it stand there doing nothing till it damaged, could enchant a weapon the enchanter has to become an animated sword
Necromancer Summon will be more undead focus and now causes debuffs that stats a decay or disease stats where other necromancer spell may interact with for example undead ghoul applies debuff called diseased (Reduce healing received by 5% stacks 10 times) the necromancer might alter an offensive spell of the summoner to rot that might now turn that into x stacks of disease into rot which is now is a DoT debuff that might slow the afflicted or they might get access to life stealing abilities
Brood warriors summons could be all tankying pets that are designed to take a beaten or defensive support buffs for the party
Shadowmancers summons are invisable shadows that dont appear till you get hit by them they might be stronger during night time aswell potentially
Conjurer might get the most variety of summons but they only realy do dmg from there summon and there normal spell might now fire from the summon you have up and that skill could be slightly different depending on the summoned pet.
I played the cleric in Alpha 1 because I naturally wanted to familiarise with the base for the Shaman. The Cleric could be changed by release but the experience was a positive one. I did play the Cultured Elves (Boring) because the Wood Elves (Py'Rai) weren't available at the time.
We should expect a Summoner to be Summoning something. Totems, Animals, Spirits, Orbs.
If you are trying to be a Nature-based Cleric with no "pets", Shaman probably is not the best choice.
You might be able to create what you want with a combo of Py'Rai augments and Religion augments.
Anyway, my base is cleric and not a summoner. When we are told a tank augment can't replace a main tank or a cleric augment can't replace a cleric main, why are you under the impression a summoner secondary will be the exact same disposition as summoner main?
In effect, what you have stated is that build how you want is a falsehood. Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?
Well they do plan for potential to drastically change the way skills work. Even small changes can drastically change the way an ability works though.
I really want more information on the 4 schools for each class. Some, like summoner, are really hard to come up with what the 4 schools could be.
Primary Archetype Cleric is not a Summoner - obviously.
But, Summoner summons three types of "pets" (tank, dps, healing) - so you can expect at least 3 out of the 4 Schools to involve "pets" - and it's very likely the 4th will as well.
Class augments allow you to incorporate some of the identity of the Secondary Archetype. A Summoner summons things. You won't be a Cleric/Shaman. You will be a Cleric/Summoner. So, you should expect your Summoner augments to summon things.
Just because there are no archetypes or classes with Druid as part of the name does not mean you cannot effectively create a "druid".
What is said is that x/Summoner may not be the best way for you to build a "shaman" since you don't really want to Summon stuff.
If what you really want to be is a Cleric with some Nature abilities, it might be easier to do that with Py'Rai augments, Religion (Nature) augments, possibly Ranger augments (if you don't want "pets" involved) and possibly Social Org augments (if there is a Social Org deicated to Nature).
I don't know why you woud be expecting an x/Summoner not to Summon stuff.
It seems as though you just like the name Shaman.
I expect there to be a Threat augment School, a Damage Mitigation augment School, and a Damage dealing augment School for x/Tank. And, yes, I expect all 4 Schools to reflect the core of what a Tank/x does.
Just as we know so far that Mage has a Teleport augment School and an Elemental augment School. We can also expect some form of Mana drain/regen augment School for x/Mage.
That is my expectation ass well.
The flavor text of the summoner says Two hands are good, but in the summoner's opinion, four hands are always better.
To me, this means that about half of a summoners power as a class will come from their pet, meaning the other half will still come from the summoner.
This means the summoner will still have some basic attacks they can perform, maybe some CC, along with summons abilities and abilities and/or commands for their summons.
It would be a little silly to think that every summoner ability summons some sort of pet.
Therefore, my choices were very very narrow around my current theory crafts. A cleric and a summoner both are magic based.
You keep saying I should expect summons- I never said I don't want summons, I said I do not like healing pets, I don't like healing orbs and I don't like totems. It is totally conceivable to me that with 4 schools, building wide, multiple sources of augments etc means I can avoid what I do not like.
What I do not agree with is being told to play a completely different class when neither myself nor you have even seen the summoner class - let alone the fucking augment system.
With Secondary Archetypes, we don't get new Active Skills. Instead we get augments.
Cleric augments provide some healing. Mage augments provide Teleports and Elemental damage.
Pretty much every Archetype is physical and magic based.
Rangers also use magic despite being classified as Martial rather than classified as Arcane.
You said you don't like Totems, Personal Orbs and Healing Pets.
Then you said you hope Shamans could either go pets or personal power.
Now, you say you specifically don't like healing orbs and healing pets or Totems.
So, no. You have not been at all clear about what you like or don't like or what you expect an x/Summoner to Summon that you would be OK with.
What are the 4 Summoner augment Schools you are expecting?
I didn't tell you to play a different class.
I said expect x/Summoners to Summon stuff. If you don't want to Suummon stuff, you might be better off choosing a different Secondary Archetype to fulfill your concept of "shaman".
That's a suggestion; not an order.
You said, "I do not see the face value right now because of the fact that I would build my toon around specific functions. Due to the lack of info on augments right now, it is difficult to even glean how much a skill effect will be changed."
And I'm saying, augments significantly change Active Skills. Mage augments add Teleportation and Elemental Damage. Cleric augments add Heals via the Life School and likely Life Drains through the Death School.
How much Elemental Damage and how much Healing we can't quantify, sure.
Just because the devs have labeled Cleric/Summoner with the name Shaman, does not mean that Cleric/Summoner is the class that will best fit your concept of "shaman".
Even if it turns out that Cleric/Summoner cannot fulfill your concept of "shaman", that does not mean you can't fulfill your concept of "shaman" with some other class. Just as the lack of a class labeled Druid does not mean it's impossible to build a character that strongly reflects the "druid" concept.
We won't know for certain until we have full details on the augment Schools for each Secondary Archetype and how those augments modify Active Skills.
What I actual said was 'Py'Rai Nature and Shaman Nature'. I want you to understand that my actual idea of a true shaman is not a wood elf at all. However, I my options in Ashes are narrow because my interests are narrow.
I want you to explain why you believe a Cleric Based Shaman should use the exact same tools as a Summoner/Summoner.
I also have no clue what you think a Cleric-based Shaman is. You sometimes mention what you don't want as a Cleric-based Shaman, but then you contradict yourself.
I don't know what you think being a Shaman entails. What is "Shaman Nature"??
By Ashes terminology, a Shaman is a Cleric/Summoner; not a Summoner/Summoner.
In Ashes, a Shaman applies Summoner augments from the 4 Summoner augment Schools on top of Cleric Active Skills.
A Summoner/Summoner applies Summoner augments on top of Summoner Active Skills.
So, I do not believe that in Ashes, a Cleric-based Shaman can use the exact same tools as a Summoner/Summoner - nor have I indicated that is possible.
Your options for what you think a "shaman" is may be narrow.
We don't know whether the options in Ashes are too narrow to reflect your vision of "shaman" and we won't know until we have a comprehensive list of all of the augments.
Even if it turns out that you can't reflect your vision of "shaman" with x/Summoner augments, that does not mean it will be impossible for you to do so with augments from a different class or with Racial/Religion/Social Org augments.
We'll have to wait until we get a full list of augments to know the best path to building your vision of what a "shaman" is.
Again, similar to Druid. Just because there is not a class called Druid, that does not mean it's impossible to create a character that is very close to the "druid" concept.
Summoner (base) is a jack of all trades. Cleric (Base) is a Healer. Now, Cleric Augment gives life or death right now (High Priest and Necro for example). Now, the summoner already has the option to run tank pet, heal pet and dps pet without the augment. It is true you could probably choose what u wish to focus on.
What i do not understand is why you are adamant my idea of a shaman is not a heal pet which is already a summoner skill. Why the fuck would a summoner want to take an augment for something the base class already has? Surely a summoner wants more power to specific functions, either pet power or personal power. I would imagine one summoner school could add a generic pet which moulds to each base class. I do not believe the devs are so narrow minded to give 4 pets extra to summoner/summoner when there are only three roles. You seem to forget the best summon in game is currently slanted to be a Golem.
Sometimes I think you act like a clueless dimwit just to piss me off.
P.s concepts are subject to change and as of yet not even public. Only in wiki note form which in truth I have not read for some months. (Thank you, Lex).
I really have no clue how you are trying to apply what you just wrote.
A Summoner Primary Archetype can Summon three types of "pets": Tank, DPS and Support.
I don't understand why you mention Cleric augments.
A Cleric/Summoner does not get Cleric augments.
A Cleric/Summoner will have Summoner augments: most likely Summoning some form of "pet" that can either Tank, DPS or Support. And those Summoner augments will be applied on top of Cleric Active Skills.
You stated, "I don't like Totems (Summoned), I don't like Personal Orbs (Summoned), I don't like Healing Pets (Summoned)."
I didn't state that your idea of a Shaman isn't a healing pet, YOU stated that you don't like Healing Pets.
You also said, "I would hope that the summoner could go either pets or personal power."
As if you don't want to Summon pets and instead just want to use "personal power".
You seemingly confirm that by saying: "
The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons)"
Which seems to indicate that you don't want to Summon Tank "pets" or DPS "pets", either.
Which is why I said you should be expecting Summoners to Summon something.
You should be capable of clarifying what you mean: especially, what you do hope to do as a Shaman instead of focusing on what you don't want to do.
As a Cleric/Summoner what is it that you do want to Summon???
A Cleric/Summoner uses an augment that will reflect their Active Skills because it allows them to either stack effects, like 1.5x Heals, or to mix the effects.
If you add a Summoner augment for a Healing "pet" onto Divine Light, expect that a Healing Spirit might appear that does 1.5x Healing compared to a normal Divine Light.
If you add a Summoner augment for a Tank "pet" onto Divine Light, expect that a Tank Spirit might appear that covers the target and provides both Healing and Damage Mitigation.
x/Summoner has 4 augment Schools. It's the same 4 Schools regardless of the x/Summoner class.
The list of x/Summoner augments will be the same for every x/Summoner class.
But, each augment will perform differently depending on the specific Active Skill they are applied to.
Songcaller, Bladecaller, Shaman and Shadow Lord will all have the exact same list of Sumonner augments.
Mostly likely at least 3/4 of those augments will Summon some form of "pet".
But the same augment will affect the Active Skills of the Primary Archetype significantly differently.
Most likely, 3 of the Summoner augments Schools will be:
1: Tank "pets"
2: DPS "pets"
3: Support "pets"
4: ???
It could be that the 4th School is "Personal Power".
But where you say, "The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons)"...that sounds like you want to avoid "pets" and instead focus on "Personal Power".
If you want to focus on "Personal Power", there may be some other class that will fit your image of "shaman", but won't make you ignore 3 out of the 4 augment Schools.
Summoner/Summoner does not necessarily get extra pets.
Summoner augments applied to Summoner Active SKills could just make the pets they already Summoned bigger and more powerful.
I have not forgotten about the Golem.
A Golem is Summoned by 8 Summoner Primary Archetypes Channeling together...intended to be used during Sieges; not raids.
I don't understand why you find that relevant to this discussion.
You are conflating a summoner primary archetype (will be able to summon tank, DPS or support pets) with a summoner secondary.
What do you think a Bladecaller Calls?
What do you think a Falconer Summons?
What do you think a Conjurer Conjures?
Can you guys please argue about this instead:
Do I roll a Cleric primary/Rogue Secondary and use skill points to enhance the damage of my cleric active skills? Or is there a better way? Would a Cleric primary even be capable of filling a dps role? Perhaps a mage primary/rogue secondary and find other ways to achieve self-heals (religion, profession, etc)?