Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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Dygz

Pretty sure your concerns about casuals are already factored into the current game design.
Especially if Corruption works as intended.

Balanz

Thank you.

It seems to me that the real response to being gankable will be social.

For example, maybe I can set up my little one man one mule caravan and hire myself out as a lure for someone else. Maybe I go ahead alone well ahead of a larger caravan in order to flush out ambusher along the route.

I do hope a gang of lowbies can bring down a significantly higher level character. No guarantees, but enough to be a risk.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.

So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?

Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression.

But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.

You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.

Interestingly, GW2 is a game with no monthly sub, yet many, many people have bought the game and aren't even willing to play ir for free - due to that lack of progression. This is where I personally fit in relation to that game.

So, you didn't even answer the question I asked, let alone pointed anything out.

Further to that, if you are saying that GW2 players are not the target, and the only players playing GW2 are those that accept a lack of progression, then surely you would have to conclude that Ashes needs that progression.

Unless, of course, you think there is a large body of MMO players that don't want personal progression, yet are not playing GW2.

The big problem with your perspective here is that you are basically wanting Ashes to be like a FPS game. You are not taking in to account the need for it to be an MMORPG.

In Ashes, character progression is created almost exclusively via PvE. That progression is then spread out or redistributed via PvP.

Based on that, the game NEEDS to have solid PvE progression in order for PvP to even function.

Take away PvE progression, and there is nothing left to PvP over.

Tragnar

the question "How much overall power gear gives?" is fundamentally bad question, because we as players are really only interested in the power difference of gear between the first major gear power plateau (you can call it entry lvl gear) and bis gear.

The closer the "first plateau" gear and bis gear are then the importance of player skill is pronounced.

Leiloni

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.

So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?

Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression.

But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.

You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.

ESO then. You can get max tier gear (level 50, CP 160) fairly easily. From that point on it's just a matter of what set you want and while they introduce new sets frequently, it's just a horizontal move, deciding how you want to build but not making you more powerful. Further, the entire open world is equalized so you don't even need that extra power until you get into instanced PvE and PvP content. Yet I can tell you since I just got back into it (despite the game's flaws), that it's wildly popular right now. I see tons of people in every zone I go to and on at least two occasions in the past week or so I've had a brief queue on the NA megaserver.

People don't quit GW2 due to lack of progression. They play because the offered content gets boring and replayability isn't as fun when you're doing uncoordinated open world zerg events vs instanced dungeons/PvP (which GW2 has but due to their combat, is not popular with casuals). And beyond the event series, there isn't much to do after you've progressed the desired masteries, but something like ESO and Ashes, there's a ton more to do and things to tie you to the game and bring you back.

I'd argue in Ashes the game isn't about endless gear progression like WoW. It's about the living world. Building up nodes via cooperative PvE content, defending your node's caravans from PvP attacks, enjoying the PvE content you've unlocked via the upgraded nodes and having occasional PvP fights over that content, and fighting for control over nodes via wars and other activities. It's navigating the social atmosphere that comes from the node-related activities - making friends and enemies, strategizing, politics, etc.

And that's just one tiny corner of the world where you decide to spend much of your time. You go elsewhere and have an entirely new experience. And due to the essentially never-ending nature of that content, the state of the world is ever-changing, constantly providing new content and experiences.

That's not about a never-ending gear treadmill, nor is one required for the game to work. You're not logging on 3 days a week for raid night and doing a new raid several times a year to get better gear. This is not that game. What do you even need continual gear progression in Ashes to even do? Is that public dungeon or that world boss going to get harder next patch? No, it's not. Do you need to kill other players faster and easier every few months? No, you don't.

Noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, character progression is created almost exclusively via PvE. That progression is then spread out or redistributed via PvP.

Based on that, the game NEEDS to have solid PvE progression in order for PvP to even function.

Take away PvE progression, and there is nothing left to PvP over.

You're fighting over power and control of nodes and regions in the game and that's a far more powerful motivator in PvP. As for PvE, people will always enjoy PvE in this game there will always be reasons to do it that doesn't involve upgrading gear constantly.

Noaani

Leiloni wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.

So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?

Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression.

But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.

You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.

ESO then. You can get max tier gear (level 50, CP 160) fairly easily. From that point on it's just a matter of what set you want and while they introduce new sets frequently, it's just a horizontal move, deciding how you want to build but not making you more powerful.

It does make you more powerful, but that is because they alter the balance every patch.

However, we have a number of people in these very forums that have left ESO specifically because of this fact. So once again it doesn't meet the requirement of the original question.

Your assertion that "people don't quit GW2 due to lack of progression" seems out of place in a thread where multiple people have specifically said they left GW2 because of the lack of progression. Unless you want to call a number of posters here outright liars, perhaps you may want to amend that statement.

Leiloni wrote: »

You're fighting over power and control of nodes and regions in the game and that's a far more powerful motivator in PvP.

For the most part, people will be fighting to keep what they have - they are not fighting to get anything new here.

That gets really boring, really quickly - just like GW2 content gets boring because you are not really progressing after doing the same thing over and over again.

Frostshot1

I'm also concerned that gear score will be too great an emphasis in AoC. I'm currently playing Lost ark and it is nearly 100% about the gear. Sure they do have Roster and combat skill bonuses, but the gear bonuses far outweigh those. I really dislike games where gear is where your character gets all their power from.

For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.

Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.

George_Black

Frostshot wrote: »

I'm also concerned that gear score will be too great an emphasis in AoC. I'm currently playing Lost ark and it is nearly 100% about the gear. Sure they do have Roster and combat skill bonuses, but the gear bonuses far outweigh those. I really dislike games where gear is where your character gets all their power from.

For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.

Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.

there won't be gear score or lame +1+1+1+1 gear progress in AoC.

If we take Lv50 being cap, there might be gear for 1-10lv, 11-19lv, 20-35lv, 35-45lv, and top gear at lv 48 or 50.

SirChancelot

George_Black wrote: »

Frostshot wrote: »

I'm also concerned that gear score will be too great an emphasis in AoC. I'm currently playing Lost ark and it is nearly 100% about the gear. Sure they do have Roster and combat skill bonuses, but the gear bonuses far outweigh those. I really dislike games where gear is where your character gets all their power from.

For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.

Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.

there won't be gear score or lame +1+1+1+1 gear progress in AoC.

If we take Lv50 being cap, there might be gear for 1-10lv, 11-19lv, 20-35lv, 35-45lv, and top gear at lv 48 or 50.

I thought this whole conversation was about great at level 50 and up?
Did I miss something?

Tragnar

Leiloni wrote: »

I'd argue in Ashes the game isn't about endless gear progression like WoW. It's about the living world. Building up nodes via cooperative PvE content, defending your node's caravans from PvP attacks, enjoying the PvE content you've unlocked via the upgraded nodes and having occasional PvP fights over that content, and fighting for control over nodes via wars and other activities. It's navigating the social atmosphere that comes from the node-related activities - making friends and enemies, strategizing, politics, etc.

You compare apples to oranges

Building up nodes, caravans etc - all of that builds towards a single progression - that is gear

why? because ashes gear is profession based and materials for it are tradeable, access to those are granted by enhancing the node you occupy and the whole game is tied to that single progression path

so in a way you are entirely wrong - Ashes in its core is about endless gear progression that is muddied by horizontal paths and way different acquisition methods (via the node system)

Ashes is being built up in such a way for the whole game being able to contribute to your gear in some way, because the gear itself is part of the whole economy

Dygz

Endless gear progression is not the core.
Gear contributes somewhat to the endless Node progression loop.
Th endless Node progression loop is the core.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Endless gear progression is not the core.
Gear contributes somewhat to the endless Node progression loop.
Th endless Node progression loop is the core.

It's two sides of the same coin.

Dygz

Not really.
The two sides of the Nodes loop are PvE and PvP.
Gear progression is a comparatively minor component, as is augment acquisition; rather than being the core.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Not really.
The two sides of the Nodes loop are PvE and PvP.
Gear progression is a comparatively minor component, as is augment acquisition; rather than being the core.

Both pve and pvp are tied directly to your gear progress. You can't do high lvl content in either of those w/o good gear, with pve giving you that gear.

And the ones who participate and are successful in both of those things can then be successful in node changes. And changing node, in turn, influence the kind of pve and pvp you can experience.

So your gear progress is directly tied to nodes and nodes existence is directly tied to progress of people's gear.

Dygz

They might be tied to gear progress, but the core is not gear progression.
The core is Node progression. And Node progression will determine what gear and what augments and bosses are available. As well as determine events and the populations of dungeons and raids and mobs, in general.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

They might be tied to gear progress, but the core is not gear progression.
The core is Node progression. And Node progression will determine what gear and what augments and bosses are available. As well as determine events and the populations of dungeons and raids and mobs, in general.

Which is why I said it's two sides of the same coin. People would have no interest in leveling up nodes if it didn't progress their character (which comes in the form of gear giving them 50% of character's power) and that gear would be useless if you didn't have the leveled up nodes giving you new content to clear, which would give you better gear, which would allow you to level nodes even higher or change which nodes are highly leveled, which would change content even further, and so on and so on. One feeds into the other.

Dygz

The two sides of the same coin are PvE and PvP.
Of which gear progresion is just a minor compenent of PvE; not the core.

There are many ways to progress your character besides just gear progression.
And, in Ashes, we will also want to progress the world in other ways besides being rewarded with gear progression.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

And, in Ashes, we will also want to progress the world in other ways besides being rewarded with gear progression.

I guess that's where our goals differ. I build up the world around me to build myself up. I guess you have more reasons to do that. And that's good. It means the game has a lot of offer to a lot of different people.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

And, in Ashes, we will also want to progress the world in other ways besides being rewarded with gear progression.

I mean, you will need to have a metropolis in order to make the best gear in the game - so this is kind of not true.

Tragnar

node progression is the consequence of personal gear progression and not vice versa

you will of course have people prioritizing node progression above their own, but even they will be forced by the game to focus on personal gear progression first to a certain degree before meaningfully contributing to node progression

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