By your logic AoC needs to be a PvE game to satisfy the endless progression that PvE players ask for.
It does need to have a near endless progression path, but that does not mean it needs to be a PvE game.
Of all the things you listed that you claim can keep people in Ashes once they are at the level cap, the only one that isn't standard among all MMO's is sieges. Everything else combined together doesn't keep people in games
This isn't a great selling point - you are basically saying that once people reach the progression ceiling, they should stay in the game purely because they now have to fight to maintain what they have.
This will see most people stay in the game for a few months, may be up to 6, but no longer.
Most people want to play an MMO to progress.
If we are talking about people playing Ashes for a half decade or more (which is how long an MMO should be attempting to keep players), then progression is simply fundamental.
Guild Wars 2 has entered the chat. Come on man… are you even trying with these arguments?
AoC has more than enough content to keep players engaged beyond endless gear grinds.
Garbage wars 2 was such a trash game I could not even get passed playing for 2 weeks before realizing what a shithole of a mess it is. I really really really hope they stay as far away from the lack of gear progression as GW2 has.
Page one paragraph one you wrote:
One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.
Since you won't give any kind of a hint as to what you think the difference between casual and hard core could in anyway possibly mean. Lets change the terms to average and top tier. If the average player 6 months in has average gear they would have gear power roughly 20-35% and a top tier player would have 40-45% and a few will eventually reach the 40-50% Intrepid are looking for. So the biggest difference is 20% roughly. Or are you expecting the "casuals" to cease any kind of gear progression and remain at the very bottom?
Like many here when I can no longer progress I will stop showing up. I don't RP. Fashion has very little meaning. Don't give a rats ass about in game politics(unless we are gonna go burn s town to the ground). If there is no combat challenge I will find someplace else to be. Many people are this way. A lot of people will go play Fashion Wars 2 and I say good for them. Ashes was never slated to be for the everyone get a trophy crowd and I hope it stays that way.
Out of morbid curiosity they have said they are balancing on a group of 8v8 with each archetype having a hard counter to a different archetype. Should this also be changed? What happens when someone gets beat by their hard counter? Maybe the gear difference will allow the less in this exchange to win where they normally would not.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.
So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?
Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression. I also stated that AoC has way more progression planned than GW2. So AoC would be just fine even without the endless progression that you claim it needs to have to be a PvX game.
0
Options
VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Casuals will have to learn when not to fight and just let the other player take a corruption hit.
wait... have I seen that before...?
The epitome of game design comes up again. Dygz and you are masterminds. This sounds like an incredibly good time and exactly the reason people log in to play. Can’t wait to see how much fun casuals will have to just sit there and take a beating because they know they can’t win.
1
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Only in your mind.
0
Options
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.
So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?
Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression. I also stated that AoC has way more progression planned than GW2. So AoC would be just fine even without the endless progression that you claim it needs to have to be a PvX game.
I feel left out as you failed to answer my questions but ok.
GW2 is a success ONLY for casuals. Steven is working to build a game like the old school MMO's with challenge and everything. Hopefully Intrepid will stay the course and only give trophies to those that want them go out and earn them. Hopefully they leave the casuals in GW2.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
1
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Leaving casuals in GW2 wouldn't solve the proposed issue anyway, since hardcores will not all acquire top tier gear at the same time.
As I have almost no experience with PvP in MMOs, but am very interested in seeing AoC succeed, and hopefully participate meaningfully as a semi-casual player, perhaps a few observations from pen and paper role playing, like Dungeons and Dragons may be applicable.
In D&D, with lower level monsters versus characters, or group versus bosses, the great equalizer is the Action Economy. Six Goblins versus a PC, or six PCs versus a Dragon, the six will have more opportunities to score a critical hit, and more actions to cover contingencies like healing, looting, or escape.
I know this discussion is mainly about gear, but the point of the discussion is to avoid makings casual players feel so impotent that they quit the game, harming the game at large.
So perhaps some balance can be done to weight things in favor of a lower level group against a higher level opponent.
Obviously, a higher level group can and should wipe the floor with a lower level group, but if death is a big deal, and the lower level group can kill at least one member of the higher level group, than the higher level group might think twice before ganking a lower level group.
There are some dials that could be adjusted to make this more of a risk. The longer that combats last, the more time the lower level group has to find a solution or flee. If the combat is over too quickly, then the lowbies just die. Maybe the greater the level disparity between the two groups, the greater chance of a lowbies attack getting lucky, such as a critical hit.
Maybe it's not obvious that the group is lower level. /consider might not work like EverQuest. Or some characters might "under con" to make the group appear weaker or more inviting.
PvP is absolutely central to AoC. It has to be able to work in an open world with wide disparities in power.
I apologize if any of this appears stupid or obvious, but my main impression is that the central question of this thread, how to avoid driving casual players away from the game, has been lost in a discussion of how much advantage a dedicated player should have, and how much of that should be attributable to gear.
Which I think really misses the point.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
Pretty sure your concerns about casuals are already factored into the current game design.
Especially if Corruption works as intended.
It seems to me that the real response to being gankable will be social.
For example, maybe I can set up my little one man one mule caravan and hire myself out as a lure for someone else. Maybe I go ahead alone well ahead of a larger caravan in order to flush out ambusher along the route.
I do hope a gang of lowbies can bring down a significantly higher level character. No guarantees, but enough to be a risk.
My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.
So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?
Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression.
But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.
You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.
Interestingly, GW2 is a game with no monthly sub, yet many, many people have bought the game and aren't even willing to play ir for free - due to that lack of progression. This is where I personally fit in relation to that game.
So, you didn't even answer the question I asked, let alone pointed anything out.
Further to that, if you are saying that GW2 players are not the target, and the only players playing GW2 are those that accept a lack of progression, then surely you would have to conclude that Ashes needs that progression.
Unless, of course, you think there is a large body of MMO players that don't want personal progression, yet are not playing GW2.
The big problem with your perspective here is that you are basically wanting Ashes to be like a FPS game. You are not taking in to account the need for it to be an MMORPG.
In Ashes, character progression is created almost exclusively via PvE. That progression is then spread out or redistributed via PvP.
Based on that, the game NEEDS to have solid PvE progression in order for PvP to even function.
Take away PvE progression, and there is nothing left to PvP over.
the question "How much overall power gear gives?" is fundamentally bad question, because we as players are really only interested in the power difference of gear between the first major gear power plateau (you can call it entry lvl gear) and bis gear.
The closer the "first plateau" gear and bis gear are then the importance of player skill is pronounced.
My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.
So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?
Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression.
But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.
You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.
ESO then. You can get max tier gear (level 50, CP 160) fairly easily. From that point on it's just a matter of what set you want and while they introduce new sets frequently, it's just a horizontal move, deciding how you want to build but not making you more powerful. Further, the entire open world is equalized so you don't even need that extra power until you get into instanced PvE and PvP content. Yet I can tell you since I just got back into it (despite the game's flaws), that it's wildly popular right now. I see tons of people in every zone I go to and on at least two occasions in the past week or so I've had a brief queue on the NA megaserver.
People don't quit GW2 due to lack of progression. They play because the offered content gets boring and replayability isn't as fun when you're doing uncoordinated open world zerg events vs instanced dungeons/PvP (which GW2 has but due to their combat, is not popular with casuals). And beyond the event series, there isn't much to do after you've progressed the desired masteries, but something like ESO and Ashes, there's a ton more to do and things to tie you to the game and bring you back.
I'd argue in Ashes the game isn't about endless gear progression like WoW. It's about the living world. Building up nodes via cooperative PvE content, defending your node's caravans from PvP attacks, enjoying the PvE content you've unlocked via the upgraded nodes and having occasional PvP fights over that content, and fighting for control over nodes via wars and other activities. It's navigating the social atmosphere that comes from the node-related activities - making friends and enemies, strategizing, politics, etc.
And that's just one tiny corner of the world where you decide to spend much of your time. You go elsewhere and have an entirely new experience. And due to the essentially never-ending nature of that content, the state of the world is ever-changing, constantly providing new content and experiences.
That's not about a never-ending gear treadmill, nor is one required for the game to work. You're not logging on 3 days a week for raid night and doing a new raid several times a year to get better gear. This is not that game. What do you even need continual gear progression in Ashes to even do? Is that public dungeon or that world boss going to get harder next patch? No, it's not. Do you need to kill other players faster and easier every few months? No, you don't.
In Ashes, character progression is created almost exclusively via PvE. That progression is then spread out or redistributed via PvP.
Based on that, the game NEEDS to have solid PvE progression in order for PvP to even function.
Take away PvE progression, and there is nothing left to PvP over.
You're fighting over power and control of nodes and regions in the game and that's a far more powerful motivator in PvP. As for PvE, people will always enjoy PvE in this game there will always be reasons to do it that doesn't involve upgrading gear constantly.
My point is that you said that most people want to play a MMO to progress. I pointed to a MMO that has been around for 10 years and that has arguably no progression and it is still one of the biggest MMOs out there.
So, are you saying that GW2 players are who you think Intrepid is targeting Ashes at?
Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression.
But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.
You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.
ESO then. You can get max tier gear (level 50, CP 160) fairly easily. From that point on it's just a matter of what set you want and while they introduce new sets frequently, it's just a horizontal move, deciding how you want to build but not making you more powerful.
It does make you more powerful, but that is because they alter the balance every patch.
However, we have a number of people in these very forums that have left ESO specifically because of this fact. So once again it doesn't meet the requirement of the original question.
Your assertion that "people don't quit GW2 due to lack of progression" seems out of place in a thread where multiple people have specifically said they left GW2 because of the lack of progression. Unless you want to call a number of posters here outright liars, perhaps you may want to amend that statement.
You're fighting over power and control of nodes and regions in the game and that's a far more powerful motivator in PvP.
For the most part, people will be fighting to keep what they have - they are not fighting to get anything new here.
That gets really boring, really quickly - just like GW2 content gets boring because you are not really progressing after doing the same thing over and over again.
I'm also concerned that gear score will be too great an emphasis in AoC. I'm currently playing Lost ark and it is nearly 100% about the gear. Sure they do have Roster and combat skill bonuses, but the gear bonuses far outweigh those. I really dislike games where gear is where your character gets all their power from.
For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.
Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.
I'm also concerned that gear score will be too great an emphasis in AoC. I'm currently playing Lost ark and it is nearly 100% about the gear. Sure they do have Roster and combat skill bonuses, but the gear bonuses far outweigh those. I really dislike games where gear is where your character gets all their power from.
For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.
Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.
there won't be gear score or lame +1+1+1+1 gear progress in AoC.
If we take Lv50 being cap, there might be gear for 1-10lv, 11-19lv, 20-35lv, 35-45lv, and top gear at lv 48 or 50.
I'm also concerned that gear score will be too great an emphasis in AoC. I'm currently playing Lost ark and it is nearly 100% about the gear. Sure they do have Roster and combat skill bonuses, but the gear bonuses far outweigh those. I really dislike games where gear is where your character gets all their power from.
For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.
Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.
there won't be gear score or lame +1+1+1+1 gear progress in AoC.
If we take Lv50 being cap, there might be gear for 1-10lv, 11-19lv, 20-35lv, 35-45lv, and top gear at lv 48 or 50.
I thought this whole conversation was about great at level 50 and up?
Did I miss something?
I'd argue in Ashes the game isn't about endless gear progression like WoW. It's about the living world. Building up nodes via cooperative PvE content, defending your node's caravans from PvP attacks, enjoying the PvE content you've unlocked via the upgraded nodes and having occasional PvP fights over that content, and fighting for control over nodes via wars and other activities. It's navigating the social atmosphere that comes from the node-related activities - making friends and enemies, strategizing, politics, etc.
You compare apples to oranges
Building up nodes, caravans etc - all of that builds towards a single progression - that is gear
why? because ashes gear is profession based and materials for it are tradeable, access to those are granted by enhancing the node you occupy and the whole game is tied to that single progression path
so in a way you are entirely wrong - Ashes in its core is about endless gear progression that is muddied by horizontal paths and way different acquisition methods (via the node system)
Ashes is being built up in such a way for the whole game being able to contribute to your gear in some way, because the gear itself is part of the whole economy
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
Endless gear progression is not the core.
Gear contributes somewhat to the endless Node progression loop.
Th endless Node progression loop is the core.
Endless gear progression is not the core.
Gear contributes somewhat to the endless Node progression loop.
Th endless Node progression loop is the core.
It's two sides of the same coin.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Not really.
The two sides of the Nodes loop are PvE and PvP.
Gear progression is a comparatively minor component, as is augment acquisition; rather than being the core.
Not really.
The two sides of the Nodes loop are PvE and PvP.
Gear progression is a comparatively minor component, as is augment acquisition; rather than being the core.
Both pve and pvp are tied directly to your gear progress. You can't do high lvl content in either of those w/o good gear, with pve giving you that gear.
And the ones who participate and are successful in both of those things can then be successful in node changes. And changing node, in turn, influence the kind of pve and pvp you can experience.
So your gear progress is directly tied to nodes and nodes existence is directly tied to progress of people's gear.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
They might be tied to gear progress, but the core is not gear progression.
The core is Node progression. And Node progression will determine what gear and what augments and bosses are available. As well as determine events and the populations of dungeons and raids and mobs, in general.
They might be tied to gear progress, but the core is not gear progression.
The core is Node progression. And Node progression will determine what gear and what augments and bosses are available. As well as determine events and the populations of dungeons and raids and mobs, in general.
Which is why I said it's two sides of the same coin. People would have no interest in leveling up nodes if it didn't progress their character (which comes in the form of gear giving them 50% of character's power) and that gear would be useless if you didn't have the leveled up nodes giving you new content to clear, which would give you better gear, which would allow you to level nodes even higher or change which nodes are highly leveled, which would change content even further, and so on and so on. One feeds into the other.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
The two sides of the same coin are PvE and PvP.
Of which gear progresion is just a minor compenent of PvE; not the core.
There are many ways to progress your character besides just gear progression.
And, in Ashes, we will also want to progress the world in other ways besides being rewarded with gear progression.
And, in Ashes, we will also want to progress the world in other ways besides being rewarded with gear progression.
I guess that's where our goals differ. I build up the world around me to build myself up. I guess you have more reasons to do that. And that's good. It means the game has a lot of offer to a lot of different people.
node progression is the consequence of personal gear progression and not vice versa
you will of course have people prioritizing node progression above their own, but even they will be forced by the game to focus on personal gear progression first to a certain degree before meaningfully contributing to node progression
Comments
Garbage wars 2 was such a trash game I could not even get passed playing for 2 weeks before realizing what a shithole of a mess it is. I really really really hope they stay as far away from the lack of gear progression as GW2 has.
Page one paragraph one you wrote:
One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.
Since you won't give any kind of a hint as to what you think the difference between casual and hard core could in anyway possibly mean. Lets change the terms to average and top tier. If the average player 6 months in has average gear they would have gear power roughly 20-35% and a top tier player would have 40-45% and a few will eventually reach the 40-50% Intrepid are looking for. So the biggest difference is 20% roughly. Or are you expecting the "casuals" to cease any kind of gear progression and remain at the very bottom?
Like many here when I can no longer progress I will stop showing up. I don't RP. Fashion has very little meaning. Don't give a rats ass about in game politics(unless we are gonna go burn s town to the ground). If there is no combat challenge I will find someplace else to be. Many people are this way. A lot of people will go play Fashion Wars 2 and I say good for them. Ashes was never slated to be for the everyone get a trophy crowd and I hope it stays that way.
Out of morbid curiosity they have said they are balancing on a group of 8v8 with each archetype having a hard counter to a different archetype. Should this also be changed? What happens when someone gets beat by their hard counter? Maybe the gear difference will allow the less in this exchange to win where they normally would not.
wait... have I seen that before...?
Nope. I’m just pointing out that your statement is false because we have an example of a game that is successful without almost any progression. I also stated that AoC has way more progression planned than GW2. So AoC would be just fine even without the endless progression that you claim it needs to have to be a PvX game.
The epitome of game design comes up again. Dygz and you are masterminds. This sounds like an incredibly good time and exactly the reason people log in to play. Can’t wait to see how much fun casuals will have to just sit there and take a beating because they know they can’t win.
I feel left out as you failed to answer my questions but ok.
GW2 is a success ONLY for casuals. Steven is working to build a game like the old school MMO's with challenge and everything. Hopefully Intrepid will stay the course and only give trophies to those that want them go out and earn them. Hopefully they leave the casuals in GW2.
In D&D, with lower level monsters versus characters, or group versus bosses, the great equalizer is the Action Economy. Six Goblins versus a PC, or six PCs versus a Dragon, the six will have more opportunities to score a critical hit, and more actions to cover contingencies like healing, looting, or escape.
I know this discussion is mainly about gear, but the point of the discussion is to avoid makings casual players feel so impotent that they quit the game, harming the game at large.
So perhaps some balance can be done to weight things in favor of a lower level group against a higher level opponent.
Obviously, a higher level group can and should wipe the floor with a lower level group, but if death is a big deal, and the lower level group can kill at least one member of the higher level group, than the higher level group might think twice before ganking a lower level group.
There are some dials that could be adjusted to make this more of a risk. The longer that combats last, the more time the lower level group has to find a solution or flee. If the combat is over too quickly, then the lowbies just die. Maybe the greater the level disparity between the two groups, the greater chance of a lowbies attack getting lucky, such as a critical hit.
Maybe it's not obvious that the group is lower level. /consider might not work like EverQuest. Or some characters might "under con" to make the group appear weaker or more inviting.
PvP is absolutely central to AoC. It has to be able to work in an open world with wide disparities in power.
I apologize if any of this appears stupid or obvious, but my main impression is that the central question of this thread, how to avoid driving casual players away from the game, has been lost in a discussion of how much advantage a dedicated player should have, and how much of that should be attributable to gear.
Which I think really misses the point.
Especially if Corruption works as intended.
It seems to me that the real response to being gankable will be social.
For example, maybe I can set up my little one man one mule caravan and hire myself out as a lure for someone else. Maybe I go ahead alone well ahead of a larger caravan in order to flush out ambusher along the route.
I do hope a gang of lowbies can bring down a significantly higher level character. No guarantees, but enough to be a risk.
But that isn't what I asked. I asked for games with no appreciable progression, where players are not leaving due to that lack of progression.
You only named a game with no appreciable progression, but one where many players have left due to that lack.
Interestingly, GW2 is a game with no monthly sub, yet many, many people have bought the game and aren't even willing to play ir for free - due to that lack of progression. This is where I personally fit in relation to that game.
So, you didn't even answer the question I asked, let alone pointed anything out.
Further to that, if you are saying that GW2 players are not the target, and the only players playing GW2 are those that accept a lack of progression, then surely you would have to conclude that Ashes needs that progression.
Unless, of course, you think there is a large body of MMO players that don't want personal progression, yet are not playing GW2.
The big problem with your perspective here is that you are basically wanting Ashes to be like a FPS game. You are not taking in to account the need for it to be an MMORPG.
In Ashes, character progression is created almost exclusively via PvE. That progression is then spread out or redistributed via PvP.
Based on that, the game NEEDS to have solid PvE progression in order for PvP to even function.
Take away PvE progression, and there is nothing left to PvP over.
The closer the "first plateau" gear and bis gear are then the importance of player skill is pronounced.
― Plato
ESO then. You can get max tier gear (level 50, CP 160) fairly easily. From that point on it's just a matter of what set you want and while they introduce new sets frequently, it's just a horizontal move, deciding how you want to build but not making you more powerful. Further, the entire open world is equalized so you don't even need that extra power until you get into instanced PvE and PvP content. Yet I can tell you since I just got back into it (despite the game's flaws), that it's wildly popular right now. I see tons of people in every zone I go to and on at least two occasions in the past week or so I've had a brief queue on the NA megaserver.
People don't quit GW2 due to lack of progression. They play because the offered content gets boring and replayability isn't as fun when you're doing uncoordinated open world zerg events vs instanced dungeons/PvP (which GW2 has but due to their combat, is not popular with casuals). And beyond the event series, there isn't much to do after you've progressed the desired masteries, but something like ESO and Ashes, there's a ton more to do and things to tie you to the game and bring you back.
I'd argue in Ashes the game isn't about endless gear progression like WoW. It's about the living world. Building up nodes via cooperative PvE content, defending your node's caravans from PvP attacks, enjoying the PvE content you've unlocked via the upgraded nodes and having occasional PvP fights over that content, and fighting for control over nodes via wars and other activities. It's navigating the social atmosphere that comes from the node-related activities - making friends and enemies, strategizing, politics, etc.
And that's just one tiny corner of the world where you decide to spend much of your time. You go elsewhere and have an entirely new experience. And due to the essentially never-ending nature of that content, the state of the world is ever-changing, constantly providing new content and experiences.
That's not about a never-ending gear treadmill, nor is one required for the game to work. You're not logging on 3 days a week for raid night and doing a new raid several times a year to get better gear. This is not that game. What do you even need continual gear progression in Ashes to even do? Is that public dungeon or that world boss going to get harder next patch? No, it's not. Do you need to kill other players faster and easier every few months? No, you don't.
You're fighting over power and control of nodes and regions in the game and that's a far more powerful motivator in PvP. As for PvE, people will always enjoy PvE in this game there will always be reasons to do it that doesn't involve upgrading gear constantly.
However, we have a number of people in these very forums that have left ESO specifically because of this fact. So once again it doesn't meet the requirement of the original question.
Your assertion that "people don't quit GW2 due to lack of progression" seems out of place in a thread where multiple people have specifically said they left GW2 because of the lack of progression. Unless you want to call a number of posters here outright liars, perhaps you may want to amend that statement. For the most part, people will be fighting to keep what they have - they are not fighting to get anything new here.
That gets really boring, really quickly - just like GW2 content gets boring because you are not really progressing after doing the same thing over and over again.
For example I really do like the way Guild wars 2 does gear, the bonuses are very minimal. And after 12 or more years you can still go back and play in old zones with your friends. Very limited gear creep.
Look how WoW went on for years with the gear creep. +1+1+1+1, eventually they had to normalize (trivialize) the early game gear due to this.
there won't be gear score or lame +1+1+1+1 gear progress in AoC.
If we take Lv50 being cap, there might be gear for 1-10lv, 11-19lv, 20-35lv, 35-45lv, and top gear at lv 48 or 50.
I thought this whole conversation was about great at level 50 and up?
Did I miss something?
You compare apples to oranges
Building up nodes, caravans etc - all of that builds towards a single progression - that is gear
why? because ashes gear is profession based and materials for it are tradeable, access to those are granted by enhancing the node you occupy and the whole game is tied to that single progression path
so in a way you are entirely wrong - Ashes in its core is about endless gear progression that is muddied by horizontal paths and way different acquisition methods (via the node system)
Ashes is being built up in such a way for the whole game being able to contribute to your gear in some way, because the gear itself is part of the whole economy
― Plato
Gear contributes somewhat to the endless Node progression loop.
Th endless Node progression loop is the core.
The two sides of the Nodes loop are PvE and PvP.
Gear progression is a comparatively minor component, as is augment acquisition; rather than being the core.
And the ones who participate and are successful in both of those things can then be successful in node changes. And changing node, in turn, influence the kind of pve and pvp you can experience.
So your gear progress is directly tied to nodes and nodes existence is directly tied to progress of people's gear.
The core is Node progression. And Node progression will determine what gear and what augments and bosses are available. As well as determine events and the populations of dungeons and raids and mobs, in general.
Of which gear progresion is just a minor compenent of PvE; not the core.
There are many ways to progress your character besides just gear progression.
And, in Ashes, we will also want to progress the world in other ways besides being rewarded with gear progression.
you will of course have people prioritizing node progression above their own, but even they will be forced by the game to focus on personal gear progression first to a certain degree before meaningfully contributing to node progression
― Plato