Azherae wrote: » Lemme know if I need to call everyone just to clarify what I'm saying here. Yes, I am telling you that if the outcome of 'me being protected when I am Red by my group' is 'we all spend an evening of being Red and having PvP matches', that will sound like 'a productive Saturday afternoon' to not only my group but at least 25 other people I know, I believe. I'm COUNTING on that lack of fast travel, you see.
Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it. No, that's not going to work that way either. Because, again, it doesn't work that way now. There IS a 'downside' in PvP in Elite, for example. You can't dock to repair or refuel or restock your weapons at most places. They still don't die. I don't know how to make this point though. I feel like it relies on an experience and belief that most people who are 'okay' with PvP don't have, particularly those who played games at the higher level. I'll just repeat it again. The gap between a competitive player and a casual in a game where the competitive player has put in, say, 1000 hours, is usually so large that the casual stands NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER. By skill alone. I can play a FT50 in SFV against a Bronze player and win 50-0. A Diamond player can do this while choosing RANDOM CHARACTERS to give themselves a handicap. If the concept is 'well people who can't fight well at all should just leave or gather more friends', great. But the first thing I am going to do when Red is call my gang to protect me. I got my gain, they're probably nearby, I don't feel like dying, and I need them to help me burn off the Corruption anyway. Or I just log off, wait for them to get to my location and log on again. Now you've got 7 'Gold' vs 'whoever happens to be around' because I'm certainly not going to do this 'when I know for sure that people who can beat me easily or before my friends arrive are online'. If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'. Are you referring to Elite Dangerous? How often does someone naturally come across another person let a lone a red in space? Correct me if i'm wrong but unless someone is intentionally hunting the red, it would be very rare for them to naturally come across them while the red will be free to pull individuals out of hyperspace and pick them off. I don't think this is a good comparison since in a populated world, it won't be rare for you to see others. Any time you spend keeping yourself safe is time you are wasting. You aren't getting away with it for free if you waste you and your friends time to keeping you safe while you burn off the corruption. Time is also a resource. Your responses to me are so weird sometimes... Burning off Corruption is achieved by ... grinding for Exp. We were going to do that anyway, what? Maybe with a bunch of uncoordinated people with separate goals this is somehow 'a waste', but for my group at least... It was Tuesday. EDIT: As for the Elite comparison, my group lives one jump from one of the most populated and high traffic star systems in the game. The entire reason they rack up those numbers is because people ARE trying to kill them and failing to do that. Take that for what you will. If it's quieter around your star system, then glad to hear it.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it. No, that's not going to work that way either. Because, again, it doesn't work that way now. There IS a 'downside' in PvP in Elite, for example. You can't dock to repair or refuel or restock your weapons at most places. They still don't die. I don't know how to make this point though. I feel like it relies on an experience and belief that most people who are 'okay' with PvP don't have, particularly those who played games at the higher level. I'll just repeat it again. The gap between a competitive player and a casual in a game where the competitive player has put in, say, 1000 hours, is usually so large that the casual stands NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER. By skill alone. I can play a FT50 in SFV against a Bronze player and win 50-0. A Diamond player can do this while choosing RANDOM CHARACTERS to give themselves a handicap. If the concept is 'well people who can't fight well at all should just leave or gather more friends', great. But the first thing I am going to do when Red is call my gang to protect me. I got my gain, they're probably nearby, I don't feel like dying, and I need them to help me burn off the Corruption anyway. Or I just log off, wait for them to get to my location and log on again. Now you've got 7 'Gold' vs 'whoever happens to be around' because I'm certainly not going to do this 'when I know for sure that people who can beat me easily or before my friends arrive are online'. If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'. Are you referring to Elite Dangerous? How often does someone naturally come across another person let a lone a red in space? Correct me if i'm wrong but unless someone is intentionally hunting the red, it would be very rare for them to naturally come across them while the red will be free to pull individuals out of hyperspace and pick them off. I don't think this is a good comparison since in a populated world, it won't be rare for you to see others. Any time you spend keeping yourself safe is time you are wasting. You aren't getting away with it for free if you waste you and your friends time to keeping you safe while you burn off the corruption. Time is also a resource.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it. No, that's not going to work that way either. Because, again, it doesn't work that way now. There IS a 'downside' in PvP in Elite, for example. You can't dock to repair or refuel or restock your weapons at most places. They still don't die. I don't know how to make this point though. I feel like it relies on an experience and belief that most people who are 'okay' with PvP don't have, particularly those who played games at the higher level. I'll just repeat it again. The gap between a competitive player and a casual in a game where the competitive player has put in, say, 1000 hours, is usually so large that the casual stands NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER. By skill alone. I can play a FT50 in SFV against a Bronze player and win 50-0. A Diamond player can do this while choosing RANDOM CHARACTERS to give themselves a handicap. If the concept is 'well people who can't fight well at all should just leave or gather more friends', great. But the first thing I am going to do when Red is call my gang to protect me. I got my gain, they're probably nearby, I don't feel like dying, and I need them to help me burn off the Corruption anyway. Or I just log off, wait for them to get to my location and log on again. Now you've got 7 'Gold' vs 'whoever happens to be around' because I'm certainly not going to do this 'when I know for sure that people who can beat me easily or before my friends arrive are online'. If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it.
Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right?
Skribby wrote: » Forced PvP is the mmo killer. I've been playing mmo's for 20 years. Not a single fantasy based mmo has been able to do it. Many tried, the trend was very popular after WoW's initial success, there were many pvp focused titles. Age of Conan, Camelot Unchained (lol), Warhammer Online (was great, still died), and of course New World and that wasn't even forced pvp. Comments are always "go play something else" and the reality is that people do, and the game dies. Sweats ganking newbies ragequit when it eventually gets nerfed because people quit en masse. Rewards are never enough for the hardcore pvpers and the pvp dies out because no one thinks it's worth it after the initial 1-2 months rush. Good luck, I've yet to see it work in the real world, maybe Ashes can pull it off. Solutions are better than telling people to go play another game. The corruption system is good if it actively discourages ganking. Allowing a handful of people ruin the experience for many new players should definitely not be encouraged.
Azherae wrote: » I don't know what the rest of people do with their MMO time, but you're talking to someone who plays PvP only games with no inherent reward other than personal skill progression for... I'd say roughly 15 hours a week minimum.The current Corruption system as described is not a deterrent for us.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it. No, that's not going to work that way either. Because, again, it doesn't work that way now. There IS a 'downside' in PvP in Elite, for example. You can't dock to repair or refuel or restock your weapons at most places. They still don't die. I don't know how to make this point though. I feel like it relies on an experience and belief that most people who are 'okay' with PvP don't have, particularly those who played games at the higher level. I'll just repeat it again. The gap between a competitive player and a casual in a game where the competitive player has put in, say, 1000 hours, is usually so large that the casual stands NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER. By skill alone. I can play a FT50 in SFV against a Bronze player and win 50-0. A Diamond player can do this while choosing RANDOM CHARACTERS to give themselves a handicap. If the concept is 'well people who can't fight well at all should just leave or gather more friends', great. But the first thing I am going to do when Red is call my gang to protect me. I got my gain, they're probably nearby, I don't feel like dying, and I need them to help me burn off the Corruption anyway. Or I just log off, wait for them to get to my location and log on again. Now you've got 7 'Gold' vs 'whoever happens to be around' because I'm certainly not going to do this 'when I know for sure that people who can beat me easily or before my friends arrive are online'. If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'. Are you referring to Elite Dangerous? How often does someone naturally come across another person let a lone a red in space? Correct me if i'm wrong but unless someone is intentionally hunting the red, it would be very rare for them to naturally come across them while the red will be free to pull individuals out of hyperspace and pick them off. I don't think this is a good comparison since in a populated world, it won't be rare for you to see others. Any time you spend keeping yourself safe is time you are wasting. You aren't getting away with it for free if you waste you and your friends time to keeping you safe while you burn off the corruption. Time is also a resource. Your responses to me are so weird sometimes... Burning off Corruption is achieved by ... grinding for Exp. We were going to do that anyway, what? Maybe with a bunch of uncoordinated people with separate goals this is somehow 'a waste', but for my group at least... It was Tuesday. EDIT: As for the Elite comparison, my group lives one jump from one of the most populated and high traffic star systems in the game. The entire reason they rack up those numbers is because people ARE trying to kill them and failing to do that. Take that for what you will. If it's quieter around your star system, then glad to hear it. The goal of corruption is to reduce ganking, not completely stop it. Since there is more to this game than grinding, people are going to want to do other things than grind exp. When someone decides they don't want to kill someone because they don't want to spend time grinding exp, that is reducing ganking. Also, while you are grinding exp, you are also not ganking people which is again, reducing it. As for elite dangerous, it sounds like you guys are pretty good at a game that has a high skill ceiling. We will have to see how high ashes skill ceiling is. What system are you guys at?
Taleof2Cities wrote: » Where is the OP? Mild rant, mic drop, and now vanished it seems ...
mcstackerson wrote: » EDIT: i guarantee there will be times your group will be deterred from pvp because you don't want to deal with the penalty. Even in the scenario where your group is as good as you think they are and have unlimited time, there are plenty of other people who aren't you and will be deterred. Also, you know you have reduced drops when you have negative exp so you are not farming at full efficiency when you farm off all the negative exp from being corrupted?
Lithion wrote: » I don't get why most of the replies are just "Go find another game" and saying this game isn't meant for people that just like PvE, but on that note Steven has stated multiple times that he wants many different types of players to be welcome in this game even non combatants saying "Non-Combat playstyles will absolutely be a full-time option" and he has said he wants role players and full time artisans of all types as well. I'm in the same boat, I'm going to be an artisan primarily and I'm just hoping the corruption system works very well so I don't get ganked every day making the game not fun. The caravan PvP and other PvP you sign up for sounds pretty fun, I just want to be able to do my PvE stuff from time to time and relax.
Dygz wrote: » Should be an interesting experiment.
Marpo wrote: » We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI. Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC. Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
TheDarkSorcerer wrote: » Please correct me if i'm wrong. But you don't NEED to participate in PvP (unless someone tries to kill you obviously). You can still do all the PvE things like exploring, gathering, farming, roleplay.
NishUK wrote: » It's not an experiment xD People aren't so widely divided by their preferences and a great mmorpg is not as a simple as great PvE or great PvP. The word "massive multiplayer" shouldn't even apply to what you're after, more like "specific audience" SAORPG (ah pretty good, SAO popular acronym xD).
