I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Yet when I watched a mass pvp BDO video, it seemed like it was just a ton of 1v1 (maaybe 2-3v1) fights in one location, instead of a truly huge swarm vs swarm.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this but to me, the separation of fights in a big fight is a good thing since it allows you to actually fight in a large fight setting. You still get that feeling of being part of a big battle with all the people around you.

In a swarm vs swarm setting, you die so quickly, especially if you are melee, you can't enjoy the fight.

Yeah, I think BDO swarm v swarm would feel icky in BDO.
In BDO, I don't feel like I'm actually the class I've chosen. I feel like I'm basically playing 3D Fantasy Mortal Kombat, where I just mash buttons as fast as possible - some VFX happen - and then I probably win in PvE.
There's no time to look over to see which abilities my allies are using so I can synergize with them.
It's just a button-mashing rage-fest.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

With bod people won't group like that because you will get killed and people have so much mobility to move around. Id view it as kind of a personal space and danger zone. Where some tab target mmorpgs might have a threat aoe size of 2. Bdo can have between 4-6. People will naturally respect areas more so and avoid tightly grouping which causes the fight to stretch further around the battlefield (if possible). That isn't always the case there are a lot of fight sin BDO in node war and such and it depends for battle to battle.

I guess this is one of my main dislikes with most action mmos design. Due to most abilities being aoe, everyone spreads out too far, while I prefer tighter battles.

Here's a good example of 9v9 combat. Even though it's in the open space, the fight itself is fairly compact. But even despite that compactness everyone is constantly moving and repositioning, and you had to click on the ground to move, so I'd assume this much movement might be unusual for click-to-move games.

https://youtu.be/arYpkDaodN8?t=54

That siege is closer to what I'm used to, mainly because it has a ton of chokepoints that have to be danced around and properly attacked in order to break through to the other side.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

@NiKr Have you played the Assassins Creed series? I’m admittedly late to the party, but have been playing AC:Odyssey for the past few weeks.

It’s action combat is pretty impressive, and blends standard attacks with active ability attacks quite smoothly. Puts a lot of action mechanics I’ve played before to shame.

AC: Odyssey melee combat looks pretty good.
I still have to take a look at ranged combat, I guess, if we're talking about aiming.
Stealth kill animations seem not as engaging as KOA: Reckoning.

Ah! Sixth Sense snaps aim to target, so... I'd say that's not completely free aim.
Abilities like that are needed for an RPG. Yes.

Mag7spy

That is the main issue with action combat is having too large issues being aoe which honestly i don't think should be a thing. Though if you make it too hard to hit someone you have the issue where people don't want to play a mmo to be good at fighting, even if it doesn't really effect the pve experience that much some people are just older and want things to be easy. So imo its about having the right balance between both and hybrid should be able to to do that, using heavy targeting with action camera can do a lot as well in making things a bit easier but still being action based.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

AC: Odyssey melee combat looks pretty good.
I still have to take a look at ranged combat, I guess, if we're talking about aiming.

Aiming can be either soft target (standard reticle aiming) or a target lock (similar to a tab target).

Archery is good as an opener, or if you’re in a hidden or elevated position. Rooftops are especially good with a bow as you can use kicks to knock folks from ledges and gain a few more shots. Once you’re engaged in an even fight though, the combat is too fast-paced to get a meaningful bow attack.

Switching between swords and spears is incredibly realistic, they animated pole combat very well so you are dangerous from greater distance. The two weapon styles balance each other well, particularly when fighting 5-7 Athenians on a pitching ship deck.

I don’t like that I can’t use a shield, but I’m playing Valhalla next where I can.

Dygz

Hmmmn. I guess, I could call standard reticle aiming free aim.
Soft lock in NWO is sticky aim.
Sixth Sense is a different kind of aim assist, but seems great for an RPG.
Target Lock would also be good, of course.

I mean - I think I would expect to be using bow shots as an opener and then switching to a different weapon.
I have a feeling Assassin's Creed is not a high magic setting.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Group content i where its easiest you do you role, tab target is not meant to be moving around all over the place, its pretty clear you don't need to be watching out for attacks and dodge them because that isn't the case.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

As I've said many times, with tab target things like this are on the encounter level, not the combat system level. I have played encounters where if you stand still for more than 2 seconds, you wipe the raid.

But yeah, tab target games are not meant for moving...

Mag7spy wrote: »

What are you talking about impossible, when I said impossible or near I'm talking about knowing 40 abilities and memorizing all of them in your head and not having any ui and having 40 different buttons set on your keyboards while knowing when they are all on cd or not. That is not normal, you aren't going to convince me it is for players to hide the whole UI, we can easy go jump into games and ask people and do a pole and seet what happens.

I mean, it isn't normal to be able to do a 180 no scope either, yet people do them.

You keep talking about how tab target takes no skill, and then you keep talking about the skills you don't have that players need to be good at tab target.

It's really weird trying to follow you here. Are you saying tab target games take no skill, or are you saying memorizing your abilities, knowing how long their cooldowns are and being able to internally time them is not a skill?

Because it can't be both. Either doing that is not a skill in which case everyone can do it - or doing that IS a skill, in which case tab target games require a very specific, honed skill that you do not possess.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You literally don't' need to look at a player to do that is my point You lick their name in your party, you click your easy. I just don't get why you want to argue with me over this....the nature of tab target isn't about dodge abilities because that is not something you can normally do in like 80-90% of the combat in tab target. When a mob hits you, you are getting hit no matter what you are getting a icon to dodge an ability or some marker like akin to lost ark or any moba game.

Another untrue statement.

In an action game, when you dodge an attack you move out of it's way. A dodge is essentially an action that you initiate in response to a pending attack (or an assumed pending attack).

In a tab target game (literally every tab target game I have ever played) there are abilities you can use that you activate when there is a pending attack (or assumed pending attack) that makes that attack miss you.

Literally the only inherent difference in these two situations is the fact that a dodge moves you, which is actually a major factor as to why action combat in large scale combat isn't as good as tab - when you have 40 people attacking a mob together, that thing needs to stay fairly still. The rest of your raid can't perform their job if the mob is moving all over the place - and in fact an ability to keep a mob still is one of the hallmarks of a quality tab target tank.

Anyways, back to the abilities. If action has an ability you can activate that makes a pending attack (or an assumed pending attack) miss, and tab target games have abilities that make a pending attack (or an assumed pending attack) miss, why would this be something you would get up on your soap box and yell about?

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

I have a feeling Assassin's Creed is not a high magic setting.

Unless you count my character’s limitless energy to scale a thousand foot peak in 15 seconds… no, not at all. 🤪

Killchain

I have played WoW for 17 years so tab target is heavily engrained into my gameplay loop for MMO's I have also tried every MMO that has ever come out since 2005. That being said I don't see the action combat being as issue I would say so far I am excited to see how it progresses.

Guild Wars 2 harboured a VERY solid combat system to me, (my opinion) and there is definitely a world where a blend of tab and action compliment each other very well.

The best advice i would give as someone who has no tangible credentials to give said advice. Steven and Team....literally show us a comparion of all the way tab target all the way action and where you blend in the middle to give us players a tangible comparison only then can we give educated feedback.

Cat Quiver

Vissox wrote: »

Ihaven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played Ihave absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

I honestly hope Intrepid employees only look at this forum for the shitposting and not feedback of any kind

JamesSunderland

Vissox wrote: »

I am tab target 100%

I mean that was just the basic attacks showoff, all classes will be able to have 75%tab-target skills ,is that enough for you or does it really have to be 100% pure tab?
Because if does, i got some bad news for you.

CaptainStraw

I prefer Action Combat all the way. AoC feels like a game where I will want to be fully inmersed in every single one of my actions, including fighting. It would be dissapointing to have an awesome sandbox game like this where you can't really fight your own fights.

zitrus

I used to play Fortnite PvE, I always played with meele weapons because there meele weapons were done very, very well.
My thought about action combat is that if implemented well, it's a lot of fun. At the end is almost the same as the tab combat, with just more focus on how you move and where you hit.

AidanKD

For what it is worth, Steven posted this on disc after the stream:

ItsmeToki

I like the new hybrid approach on meele classes, but I can see your worries with the combat system especially if we are talking about ranged dps. Aiming your abillities is one thing, but if you have to aim all of your autoattacks with every single ranged dps class AoC offers, I think it will be difficult for the Game to win players from tab target oriented MMOs over. There are different types of ppl. Some like to show their skill in fps games by having a good aim and other players are strong in the tactical use of their given set of abillities. Both strenghtes should be respected separatly. Otherways classhandling gets way to complicated and the skill cap would be trough the roof.

Dygz

Ashes desn't have auto-attack.

Doublebass

My only wish is that there is no movement lock while attacking. If you design Action combat, but only give players standard combo of autoattacks, and some skills to do, it's basically action in name only, but in essence worse than tab target. For instance, in wow in particular you can freely move while doing melee attacks. Ideally they could design the action combat system to be much better than just 'tab target without tab target and with moving during attacks just like in tab target', but I don't know if it's too much to ask of a mmorpg.

Here's what tab target fight is like: target enemy, move next to it, press ability buttons, it's your numbers versus the enemy's numbers, and the enemy dies eventually, and you move with the enemy to keep in range.

Here's what action combat SHOULD be like: swing lightly WHILE sidestepping to the left to avoid another monster's projectile, your swing provoking a dodge response, which you follow up with a quick distance closer (or just a big step in) with a heavy swing, because you know this one will land, because you tricked enemy into dodging early. Instead enemy uses his block ability to avoid this heavy attack, ruins your plan, and now you are on the defensive - you hop back, hop sideways and parry attacks from now-chasing-you enemy. You do fast counter-attacks trying to make enemy back off in between parries, or use abilities that do an attack while moving you in a certain direction. Once you disengage from enemy's melee range because you went left and he thought you'd go back, you can start to attack again. Numbers here should play a LESSER role in determining outcome than in a tab-target system.

If you have encountered bad action combat systems, you will basically get worst of both worlds. Movement stuck in attack animations, no attacks actually cause you to move, and when you attack it only looks like you are in an action combat but actually its just numbers against enemy's numbers who doesn't try to dodge or parry or block like a target dummy.

From the demo i saw posted recently i'm afraid it looks like diablo - nothing different from just clicking an enemy to attack them, then using an ability that does a certain aoe in front. Nothing different from if this was a tab target game. Stats on stats. Chop them up. Slice and dice until enemy crumbles.

Dygz

Ashes doesn't have auto-attack.

Selo

Vissox wrote: »

I guess I'm the only one? I feel as though people are putting very little thought into the implications of action combat. If it's bad, its really, really bad. Tab targeting is tried and true, and rotations are a pve exclusive thing guys. If you watch some WoW arena (as boring as it is) there is a lot more to interact with. I hope you guys are right on this one. =/

Your definatly not the only one.
Ive posted alot about it aswell but i usually only get rude replies so yea..
Noaani is another one.
I would say action combat has even worse rotation.
Just look at New World.
Its all about spamming left mousebutton and 3 skills. XD
I dont want to spam mousebutton all day while strafing and bunnyjumping around my enemies.
I rather have tab targeted auto attacks and 10-15 skills and more stationary combat.
MMORPGS with action combat vs tab target that has been succesful are VASTLY towards tab tageting side for a reason.
Players in action combat mmorpgs leaves in droves very quickly when they notice they cant keep up due to playerskill inbalance.
The differance between a skilled player in action combat mmorpgs towards a "normal" player is HUGE compared to a skilled/normal player in a tab target game.
Players THINK they want one thing becouse they liked in in a single player game, or a totally different genre, but when they actually try it, they dont like it, quit, and rejoin their old proven tab target game.
Ive seen it in 20+ mmorpgs.
Ive seen the same discussions in Alpha/Beta forums since EQ.
Unfortunally the players that wants all those systems are VERY vocal on forums, while the vast majority are NOT on these forums, and hardly watch any information about the game.
Most here are player around 20 that has played way to few mmorpgs, and very obscure mmorpgs at that.

Vissox

CROW3 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

AC: Odyssey melee combat looks pretty good.
I still have to take a look at ranged combat, I guess, if we're talking about aiming.

Aiming can be either soft target (standard reticle aiming) or a target lock (similar to a tab target).

Archery is good as an opener, or if you’re in a hidden or elevated position. Rooftops are especially good with a bow as you can use kicks to knock folks from ledges and gain a few more shots. Once you’re engaged in an even fight though, the combat is too fast-paced to get a meaningful bow attack.

Switching between swords and spears is incredibly realistic, they animated pole combat very well so you are dangerous from greater distance. The two weapon styles balance each other well, particularly when fighting 5-7 Athenians on a pitching ship deck.

I don’t like that I can’t use a shield, but I’m playing Valhalla next where I can.

I would not be opposed to an aim lock system, that is basically what I want anyway.

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