Vissox wrote: » I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.
Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false. Well, you seem to be getting a lot of things wrong. I'm not entirely sure what you are saying with the second comment but it sounds like you're saying that some of the good points of tab target MMOs are moot because action is better, regardless. I could be wrong. I don't know much about action combat and raids but I can imagine that a lot of people moving around excessively can do big harm to positioning. Action combat could make people careless. Though, in fairness, only the tank should need to dodge. If clerics and dps are getting hit in a raid then they're doing something wrong. Again, though, I think this is another point in favour of the fact I'm pushing that action combat is not as social. But this is why I am saying we all need to test Ashes without prejudices. Judge the combat the game has, not the combat styles as you see them in other MMOs. how is action combat not social? New world insanely social that was the best part of the game imo and that was purely action combat. Weird things keep getting thrown in like action combat makes the experience worst on gameplay elements that don't make sense. Action combat is imply a more immersive and responsive gameplay with more twist to it with action and mobility and mechanics, where tab is more only on the mechanic side of things.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false. Well, you seem to be getting a lot of things wrong. I'm not entirely sure what you are saying with the second comment but it sounds like you're saying that some of the good points of tab target MMOs are moot because action is better, regardless. I could be wrong. I don't know much about action combat and raids but I can imagine that a lot of people moving around excessively can do big harm to positioning. Action combat could make people careless. Though, in fairness, only the tank should need to dodge. If clerics and dps are getting hit in a raid then they're doing something wrong. Again, though, I think this is another point in favour of the fact I'm pushing that action combat is not as social. But this is why I am saying we all need to test Ashes without prejudices. Judge the combat the game has, not the combat styles as you see them in other MMOs.
Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are.
Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.
Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false. Well, you seem to be getting a lot of things wrong. I'm not entirely sure what you are saying with the second comment but it sounds like you're saying that some of the good points of tab target MMOs are moot because action is better, regardless. I could be wrong. I don't know much about action combat and raids but I can imagine that a lot of people moving around excessively can do big harm to positioning. Action combat could make people careless. Though, in fairness, only the tank should need to dodge. If clerics and dps are getting hit in a raid then they're doing something wrong. Again, though, I think this is another point in favour of the fact I'm pushing that action combat is not as social. But this is why I am saying we all need to test Ashes without prejudices. Judge the combat the game has, not the combat styles as you see them in other MMOs. how is action combat not social? New world insanely social that was the best part of the game imo and that was purely action combat. Weird things keep getting thrown in like action combat makes the experience worst on gameplay elements that don't make sense. Action combat is imply a more immersive and responsive gameplay with more twist to it with action and mobility and mechanics, where tab is more only on the mechanic side of things. I can't really be bothered to keep this going because it's all just 'what I prefer' and not 'discussing the merits or downsides of either'. But, I had to reply to this. New World was insanely social? If you believe that then are you erally sure you spent loads of time in the old MMOs? The bigest problem with MMOs over the past 10 years is that they've lost so much of the social elements and have become solo grindfests. New World was just that; a solo game with lots of people running about. Oh, and the combat was absolutely awful...
Mag7spy wrote: » Sounds like you didn't join a good guild in new world. I ran like a 200 man guild, we had 30-70 people in discord voice chat depending on what was going on at all times. People were all doing things together in groups 24/7.
Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false. Well, you seem to be getting a lot of things wrong. I'm not entirely sure what you are saying with the second comment but it sounds like you're saying that some of the good points of tab target MMOs are moot because action is better, regardless. I could be wrong. I don't know much about action combat and raids but I can imagine that a lot of people moving around excessively can do big harm to positioning. Action combat could make people careless. Though, in fairness, only the tank should need to dodge. If clerics and dps are getting hit in a raid then they're doing something wrong. Again, though, I think this is another point in favour of the fact I'm pushing that action combat is not as social. But this is why I am saying we all need to test Ashes without prejudices. Judge the combat the game has, not the combat styles as you see them in other MMOs. how is action combat not social? New world insanely social that was the best part of the game imo and that was purely action combat. Weird things keep getting thrown in like action combat makes the experience worst on gameplay elements that don't make sense. Action combat is imply a more immersive and responsive gameplay with more twist to it with action and mobility and mechanics, where tab is more only on the mechanic side of things. I can't really be bothered to keep this going because it's all just 'what I prefer' and not 'discussing the merits or downsides of either'. But, I had to reply to this. New World was insanely social? If you believe that then are you erally sure you spent loads of time in the old MMOs? The bigest problem with MMOs over the past 10 years is that they've lost so much of the social elements and have become solo grindfests. New World was just that; a solo game with lots of people running about. Oh, and the combat was absolutely awful... Sounds like you didn't join a good guild in new world. I ran like a 200 man guild, we had 30-70 people in discord voice chat depending on what was going on at all times. People were all doing things together in groups 24/7.
falcorpix wrote: » Every time I see this tab-target vs action combat discussion, I only see the tab-target crowd presenting arguments that arent true all or arent really cons of action combat at all, but rather pros. Fundamentally, there is nothing tab-target games can do that action cant do and probably better. Guess what, if you simply add a target lock key to an action combat game, you have your so loved tab-target game, but will all the intricacies of action combat. Now try adding free camera to a tab-target game...
CROW3 wrote: » Ok.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system. @mcstackerson I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you. Guess I'll just ask you anyway. If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat? This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
mcstackerson wrote: » Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system.
mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system. @mcstackerson I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you. Guess I'll just ask you anyway. If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat? This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work. Sorry for letting you down. There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected. This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system. @mcstackerson I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you. Guess I'll just ask you anyway. If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat? This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work. Sorry for letting you down. There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected. This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me. In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits. By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?
In WoW or classic tab-targeting you press a button to deal damage. The client checks your range to the targeted enemy and if in range all requirements are met and damage is dealt; the character animation is just a visual feedback that something happens -- it's not necessary for a hit. Also, the animation will be played after the hit is calculated. Movement has no affect besides breaking line of sight or moving out of the "action circle" of the ability.
In Tera or action combat pressing a button will also start an animation which deal damage iff there is a mob in the target area. But the hitboxes and the animation of the skills are much more versatile than in mixed combat, e.g. the size of the weapons and the swing animations can be used as visual clue if an attack connects or not -- steps to the side decide a hit or miss. A big difference to tab-targeting and mixed combat is, that in action combat the character is locked in an animation while attacking, i.e. you can't strafe while swinging. But because attacks are coupled with movement (e.g. jumping forward in a lunge-attack) different attacks can be used to dodge enemy hits. As a consequence, in action combat fixed skill-rotations don't exist -- skill usage depends on where the player wants to move.
Mag7spy wrote: » Im just going to post the actual definition explanation post this is getting out of hand with these weird comparisons that tab can do things action can when they are different on a fundamental level. In WoW or classic tab-targeting you press a button to deal damage. The client checks your range to the targeted enemy and if in range all requirements are met and damage is dealt; the character animation is just a visual feedback that something happens -- it's not necessary for a hit. Also, the animation will be played after the hit is calculated. Movement has no affect besides breaking line of sight or moving out of the "action circle" of the ability. In Tera or action combat pressing a button will also start an animation which deal damage iff there is a mob in the target area. But the hitboxes and the animation of the skills are much more versatile than in mixed combat, e.g. the size of the weapons and the swing animations can be used as visual clue if an attack connects or not -- steps to the side decide a hit or miss. A big difference to tab-targeting and mixed combat is, that in action combat the character is locked in an animation while attacking, i.e. you can't strafe while swinging. But because attacks are coupled with movement (e.g. jumping forward in a lunge-attack) different attacks can be used to dodge enemy hits. As a consequence, in action combat fixed skill-rotations don't exist -- skill usage depends on where the player wants to move.
Mag7spy wrote: » If your camera moves towards your target and you attack it is not animation based. The dodge concept needs to be the same as action games, it doesn't matter how much you twist it. If a player attacks and you can walk backwards and dodge the sword with only WASD in the middle of a field with no objects to obstruct you and they can miss because their sword did not hit you then it would be action based. So if you can walk in a circle around someone and if they are using skills on you and because of how you are moving around them they miss then I would say clearly it has some form of action combat in it between that and you having to control the camera yourself and look in their direction.
