I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

If you think this games target audience is 40+ you are making assuming because of bias and most likely the reason why you are more tab heavy leaning. Just because older games are a main source of inspiration doesn't mean the target audience is only for those people or people that are 40+. You could perhaps make that argument for pantheon but not AoC.

If that was the case they wouldn't be including modern aspects of mmorpgs. Younger people prefer action over gameplay like pantheon that is very much true, and when a lot of people are watching the stream or giving feedback, those younger people can very much influence the game. If it was the case against people under 40 their influence wouldn't be able to be as great and the combat could lean heavy on tab rather then doing action forms of combat. They wouldn't have been stressing over combat and the feel of the action elements for so long.

If you think their target audience is 40+ you are only trying to use that as a crutch to say combat needs to be slow and more tab target based. $40+ combat is like pantheon as something a younger audience would have no interest in playing and it will show through their sales. Which I hate using the term younger just because you aren't god damn 40 years old that is such a small skewed target. Plenty of people that are 40+ from older mmorpgs have stopped playing them, WoW use to have 12m subs.....

If im going to assume target audience I'm not going based of age, I'd say not a wow theme park. Its target audience is people that enjoy a world with soft friction and pvp as it can great influence the effects of the world and drama. People that like more of a sandbox experience, and enjoy some pve elements as well.

Though I'd say target audience is for everyone that enjoys a good sand box mmorpg hence the price point is slow to entry. Assuming things and that the game is MADE for 40+ is wild without actually giving any from of proof. People that are 40+ will love the systems is different than saying this game is only made for older boomers.

Elder wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Elder wrote: »

AoC's target audience isn't any one selection of the MMO demographic,

I'm just going to reiterate that I dont think you understand what a target audience actually is.

I mean, if you want to argue that Ashes doesnt have one at all, that's something you can attempt. But what you are trying to say here is that Ashes has a target audience, but it isn't actually a target audience.

By definition, a target audience is a specific demographic. You cant say that a products target audience is t a specific demographic, because no specific demographic means no target audience.

Fact is, Ashes is a niche game. It isn't aiming to appeal to all MMO players - that has never been Steven's goal.

It's not uncommon for businesses to have more than one target audience or ideal customer.

AoC has more than one target audience. I would have thought that was quite obviously my point. But it seems like you're interested in arguing about semantics so I'll be excusing myself.

I know how you fell its all semantics. Some people are so blind on the tab vrs action they think of anything to try to understand why the game has to be more tab focused. This kind of point makes no sense from a business model. I could simply use the other way around and say there is way more people that will be willing to pay that are less than 40 years old. Now if we are talking about whales that is def a 40+ market

Elder

Mag7spy wrote: »

Elder wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Elder wrote: »

AoC's target audience isn't any one selection of the MMO demographic,

I'm just going to reiterate that I dont think you understand what a target audience actually is.

I mean, if you want to argue that Ashes doesnt have one at all, that's something you can attempt. But what you are trying to say here is that Ashes has a target audience, but it isn't actually a target audience.

By definition, a target audience is a specific demographic. You cant say that a products target audience is t a specific demographic, because no specific demographic means no target audience.

Fact is, Ashes is a niche game. It isn't aiming to appeal to all MMO players - that has never been Steven's goal.

It's not uncommon for businesses to have more than one target audience or ideal customer.

AoC has more than one target audience. I would have thought that was quite obviously my point. But it seems like you're interested in arguing about semantics so I'll be excusing myself.

I know how you fell its all semantics. Some people are so blind on the tab vrs action they think of anything to try to understand why the game has to be more tab focused. This kind of point makes no sense from a business model. I could simply use the other way around and say there is way more people that will be willing to pay that are less than 40 years old. Now if we are talking about whales that is def a 40+ market

I'm not too keen on commenting on the action vs combat argument/discussion as I don't find it particularly constructive and I have no strong opinions either way. I may be wrong but I think it's probably obvious that Steven as creative director/lead game designer has a specific vision for combat and a relatively experienced and confident team supporting that vision.

I have no disagreement with everyone stating their opinions and preferences or offering feedback. I'd just prefer to personally withhold my judgment and bias until Stevens vision for combat becomes more clear.

But yes, I can see how some people can jump through hoops to support their particular opinion on the subject. Be it a preference for either Action Combat or Tab Target.

SirChancelot

Mag7spy wrote: »

That pretty clearly says animation canceling will not be a part of combat

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52913/animation-canceling-dodging-weaving#latest

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That pretty clearly says animation canceling will not be a part of combat

Mag7spy wrote: »

I know how you fell its all semantics. Some people are so blind on the tab vrs action they think of anything to try to understand why the game has to be more tab focused.

Funny thing about people being blind and going through hoops to argue their position - I never once said the game needs to be more tab focused, yet you have argued against my point that tab is better suited to top end PvE content as if that is what I was saying.

You are the one that is contorting things to try and back up your opinion, not people that say tab is better suited to top end PvE. In fact, many of us (myself included) have even said that action is better for many combat situations.

It is the fact that we are able to say "action is better here, but tab is better over there" that prove that we are the ones that are not contorting things to back up our opinion. People that think either action combat or tab combat are always better are very clearly the ones that are blind to various aspects.

Those that make up blatant lies are the worst offenders in this regard. And yes, that is specifically you.

Elder wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Elder wrote: »

AoC's target audience isn't any one selection of the MMO demographic,

I'm just going to reiterate that I dont think you understand what a target audience actually is.

I mean, if you want to argue that Ashes doesnt have one at all, that's something you can attempt. But what you are trying to say here is that Ashes has a target audience, but it isn't actually a target audience.

By definition, a target audience is a specific demographic. You cant say that a products target audience is t a specific demographic, because no specific demographic means no target audience.

Fact is, Ashes is a niche game. It isn't aiming to appeal to all MMO players - that has never been Steven's goal.

It's not uncommon for businesses to have more than one target audience or ideal customer.

AoC has more than one target audience. I would have thought that was quite obviously my point. But it seems like you're interested in arguing about semantics so I'll be excusing myself.

I'm not saying that can't be the case, I am saying that it's first target audience is the gamer that thinks MMO's went to shit at some point after WoW.

Quite specifically, the target audience of this game is Steven. He has said this blatantly in the past. He is making a game he wants to play, and if the rest of us enjoy it, great.

The second this game stops being the game that Steven wants to play, it stops being Ashes and becomes something else (even if the name doesn't change).

NyxiLeon

Mag7spy wrote: »

NyxiLeon wrote: »

Imo Ashes of Creation devs should release a video update about the tab-targeting combat system, to reassure that huge amount of players that really were not satisfied with what they watched.

And it should be a caster class, because I don’t expect for example an healer to be more action-combat oriented.

Most efficient healing skills have always been : tab/click-targeting your allies, proceed to healing (single or aoe).

Huge amount of players are voicing their feedback on the forums and you could see the spamming in the twitch chat in the video. People like this direction, where is the huge amount of people that are saying other wise, i haven't seen that many.

People just want good combat that is fun to play, there isn't really a huge out cry they are doing something wrong.

Not everyone does read the forum yet neither comment on social medias.

You better not consider for granted the positive reactions as a whole regarding the action-combat like : ”people like this direction because they commented on the forum or YouTube”.

Just like someone stated here or in another topic : don’t be deceived. A huge amount of players prefer to stick on tab-targeting as the main genre and not willing to import fps mechanism in a rpg.

If you want to have a real idea about how people feel about the combat system, and what they really prefer : they need to make a poll on YouTube.

People will rather answer a poll then comment on a video or in a forum that requires registration. Less effort worth it better.

And you’ll be surprised regarding the results.

This is why the hybrid system is a good idea.

We received update about the action combat system, now we are also expecting a video regarding the tab-targeting combat system.

Finally personal opinion here : if you don’t want to start a riot, better focus the ranged classes, especially the cleric, mainly on tab targeting.

NyxiLeon wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NyxiLeon wrote: »

Imo Ashes of Creation devs should release a video update about the tab-targeting combat system, to reassure that huge amount of players that really were not satisfied with what they watched.

And it should be a caster class, because I don’t expect for example an healer to be more action-combat oriented.

Most efficient healing skills have always been : tab/click-targeting your allies, proceed to healing (single or aoe).

Huge amount of players are voicing their feedback on the forums and you could see the spamming in the twitch chat in the video. People like this direction, where is the huge amount of people that are saying other wise, i haven't seen that many.

People just want good combat that is fun to play, there isn't really a huge out cry they are doing something wrong.

Not everyone does read the forum yet neither comment on social medias.

You better not consider for granted the positive reactions as a whole regarding the action-combat like : ”people like this direction because they commented on the forum or YouTube”.

Just like someone stated here or in another topic : don’t be deceived. A huge amount of players prefer to stick on tab-targeting as the main genre and not willing to import fps mechanism in a rpg.

If you want to have a real idea about how people feel about the combat system, and what they really prefer : they need to make a poll on YouTube.

People will rather answer a poll then comment on a video or in a forum that requires registration. Less effort worth it better.

And you’ll be surprised regarding the results.

This is why the hybrid system is a good idea.

We received update about the action combat system, now we are also expecting a video regarding the tab-targeting combat system.

Finally personal opinion here : if you don’t want to start a riot, better focus the ranged classes, especially the cleric, mainly on tab targeting.

You are only deceiving yourself if you think more people prefer tab target and they are choosing not to comment on the direction or complain on twitch or the forums. Equal opportunity to do so, yet we can see the direction and desires moving much more clearly in one way than the other.

Now imagine all the other people that hasn't said anything on the action side included that also don't comment on forums and such or know about the game. Things always go both ways.

Its funny as the direction for combat has always sought to improve and be more immersive, its only now I'm surprised some people are working against improvements to combat and wanting things to be like older times which is a step backwards over forward. The older times have always tried to step forward and include for fake elements of action type combat to create a better experience.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its funny as the direction for combat has always sought to improve and be more immersive, its only now I'm surprised some people are working against improvements to combat and wanting things to be like older times which is a step backwards over forward.

The original premise of this game is basically "new MMO's are shit, so we are making one that plays like an older MMO but uses modern graphics and such, come join us if you want that".

The odd thing to do, based on that, would be for someone to say that Ashes needs to do a thing because all modern MMO's do it and older ones never did.

Any argument in relation to gameplay that has anything akin to "new games do this" is literally what this game is trying to reverse. That argument in isolation is an argument for why Intrepid should NOT do that thing, not why they should do it.

Maybe that thing makes sense for another game, but not for a game that is trying to reverse the general direction MMO's havr taken over the last decade and a half.

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its funny as the direction for combat has always sought to improve and be more immersive, its only now I'm surprised some people are working against improvements to combat and wanting things to be like older times which is a step backwards over forward.

The original premise of this game is basically "new MMO's are shit, so we are making one that plays like an older MMO but uses modern graphics and such, come join us if you want that".

The odd thing to do, based on that, would be for someone to say that Ashes needs to do a thing because all modern MMO's do it and older ones never did.

Any argument in relation to gameplay that has anything akin to "new games do this" is literally what this game is trying to reverse. That argument in isolation is an argument for why Intrepid should NOT do that thing, not why they should do it.

Maybe that thing makes sense for another game, but not for a game that is trying to reverse the general direction MMO's havr taken over the last decade and a half.

You can say new mmos are shit and not mean tab target gameplay. They are going for hybrid so that should give you an idea they are clearing going for not the same old combat as older mmorpgs. Your bias is making you relate things too strongly in the wrong way without clearly seeing the direction they are aiming for.

This game isn't trying to reserve what new games do gameplay wise with combat. There has been no showing of that....hybrid is against the point you are trying to make as hybrid is new. You are so stuck on tab target only in your mind set or tab target is the best way you are tryign to pull any information that makes it seem like that is what they are saying. They are trying to make a great game that doesn't follow the mistakes of games in their perspective, while acknowledging some good traits in modern games. They are trying to create a modern mmorpg no create a carbon copy of a old mmo, but leaning on the good traits about them. Stats being an example which everyone loves and having that form of customization, classes and races.

Again they are not trying to reserve the whole direction of mmorpgs they are trying to make a good one but not follow steps other developers have done that they felt were wrong. They have action combat in the from of hybrid, their character creator is akin to bdo as that created the baseline for character customization.

Mag7spy wrote: »

This game isn't trying to reserve what new games do gameplay wise with combat. There has been no showing of that...

Open world pvp, free trading instead of soulbound shit, no addons, no fast travel, no group finder, open world dungeons/bosses, no super competitive instanced content (at least right now), more emphasis on community, low amount of solo pve content - those are the first ones that come to mind that are very rare in the recent mmos, while were more widespread in the old ones. And pretty much all of those is the reason I (and a group of at least 10 of my friends/acquaintances) am interested in Ashes AT ALL.

They literally had "maga" hats saying "make mmos great again". If that is not just yelling "our TA is older mmo players" to you, I'd call you crazy. And, obviously, as Noaani said, those things don't mean that newer players won't be interested in the game or that Intrepid isn't just trying to make a good game. But the main TA is people who played those old games, loved their design and then saw the genre go to utter shite. Everyone else who likes the game are just people interested in new mmos or in some particular features that Ashes will have. But when you literally tell people "we're gonna do things that new mmos don't, but older ones did" - you're targeting mmo boomers.

If anything, I'd say that your combat bias is the thing that's clouding your judgment here.

George_Black

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This game isn't trying to reserve what new games do gameplay wise with combat. There has been no showing of that...

Open world pvp, free trading instead of soulbound shit, no addons, no fast travel, no group finder, open world dungeons/bosses, no super competitive instanced content (at least right now), more emphasis on community, low amount of solo pve content - those are the first ones that come to mind that are very rare in the recent mmos, while were more widespread in the old ones. And pretty much all of those is the reason I (and a group of at least 10 of my friends/acquaintances) am interested in Ashes AT ALL.

They literally had "maga" hats saying "make mmos great again". If that is not just yelling "our TA is older mmo players" to you, I'd call you crazy. And, obviously, as Noaani said, those things don't mean that newer players won't be interested in the game or that Intrepid isn't just trying to make a good game. But the main TA is people who played those old games, loved their design and then saw the genre go to utter shite. Everyone else who likes the game are just people interested in new mmos or in some particular features that Ashes will have. But when you literally tell people "we're gonna do things that new mmos don't, but older ones did" - you're targeting mmo boomers.

If anything, I'd say that your combat bias is the thing that's clouding your judgment here.

No p2w. U forgot the main one.

George_Black wrote: »

No p2w. U forgot the main one.

Yeah, I guess at this point that's a "feature" of newer mmos

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This game isn't trying to reserve what new games do gameplay wise with combat. There has been no showing of that...

Open world pvp, free trading instead of soulbound shit, no addons, no fast travel, no group finder, open world dungeons/bosses, no super competitive instanced content (at least right now), more emphasis on community, low amount of solo pve content - those are the first ones that come to mind that are very rare in the recent mmos, while were more widespread in the old ones. And pretty much all of those is the reason I (and a group of at least 10 of my friends/acquaintances) am interested in Ashes AT ALL.

They literally had "maga" hats saying "make mmos great again". If that is not just yelling "our TA is older mmo players" to you, I'd call you crazy. And, obviously, as Noaani said, those things don't mean that newer players won't be interested in the game or that Intrepid isn't just trying to make a good game. But the main TA is people who played those old games, loved their design and then saw the genre go to utter shite. Everyone else who likes the game are just people interested in new mmos or in some particular features that Ashes will have. But when you literally tell people "we're gonna do things that new mmos don't, but older ones did" - you're targeting mmo boomers.

If anything, I'd say that your combat bias is the thing that's clouding your judgment here.

Well aware of the points above, and what proof is there that people below 40 are not interested in all those traits? Because if those are the points to paly ashes and you are saying its designed for people 40+ then there has to be a reason why someone would not be interested in playing the game if they are below 40 for those reasons. Else the target audience as far as age does not hold up to that argument.

And that is why i dont like fast paced action combat. 60 year old Henry will have no chance keeping up with 20 year old Steven.
The wast majority of players are 40+
They dont want to train 10 hours a day to hone their skills to be competative in PvP and never beeing able to be as good as a 20 year old due to natural circumstances.
Tab Target combat is way better for balance than a twitchy high APM combat style.

So tis going to fast pace combat isn't good because something things 40+ are the majority of players. To 40+ is the target audience because of the system chosen in the game. Yet these same systems people played these games when they were not 40.

This whole discussion is flaws you really want to fight on this hill for tab vrs action combat over age with mmorpgs now without any actual data being based on this?

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can say new mmos are shit and not mean tab target gameplay. They are going for hybrid so that should give you an idea they are clearing going for not the same old combat as older mmorpgs. Your bias is making you relate things too strongly in the wrong way without clearly seeing the direction they are aiming for.

I mean, EQ2 has a lot of the aspects that Intrepid are labeling as action combat.

Keep in mind, to Intrepid, an AoE that you place is an action ability. With this in mind, some classes in EQ2 were 25%+ action combat.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well aware of the points above, and what proof is there that people below 40 are not interested in all those traits?

Who said they wouldn't be?

Seriously, show me where literally ANYONE said anything at all to make you think this.

A target audience - once again - is not the only audience expected to consume a product. It is simply the main audience for whom that product is, well, targeted at. If others that are not in that audience find the product appealing, great.

This seems to just be another example of you not reading properly, and thinking your initial interpretation (that the game is somehow only for people that played early MMO's) is the only applicable one.

You really need to get used to the notion that you are wrong, as you seem to be wrong very often.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well aware of the points above, and what proof is there that people below 40 are not interested in all those traits? Because if those are the points to paly ashes and you are saying its designed for people 40+ then there has to be a reason why someone would not be interested in playing the game if they are below 40 for those reasons. Else the target audience as far as age does not hold up to that argument.

Again, this sub-discussion was about TA and not just "whoever's interested".

This research from 2004 supposes an average age of ~26 for mmo players. Even if we assume that several million young teens got hooked onto WoW, they'll be at least 30 by the time Ashes comes out. And the chances are, a ton of them will be closer to or over 40. And there's even higher chances that the ones the most interested in Ashes would be over 40, because they would've had to be later in their teens to love pre-mid WoW mmos.

And I don't think anyone's here saying that younger people can't be interested in Ashes. But the point is, they're not the Target Audience. And the fact that Intrepid went for hybrid (with full tab as backup) combat is only more proof that they're not targeting all the young people who prefer full action and want to show off their twitch skills.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

And I don't think anyone's here saying that younger people can't be interested in Ashes. But the point is, they're not the Target Audience. And the fact that Intrepid went for hybrid (with full tab as backup) combat is only more proof that they're not targeting all the young people who prefer full action and want to show off their twitch skills.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to work toward drawing in the younger audiences later though? That's a large part of the marketing of certain other genres, and MMOs are in the very positive position of being able to constantly have a point of reference due to their space in media.

New World didn't do well because for some reason Amazon didn't seem to understand this (or weren't really trying) and burned themselves early.

My point is that they are probably targeting 'the youth' but they have to target them differently, possibly 'later', possibly 'as a subsection of something else'. It's hard to build a community for an MMO by 'starting with a glut of combat content', I feel.