Action Camera & Healing

I wanted to make a post regarding the hybrid approach with action camera and how it relates to healing.

The appeal to healing for me is to make judgement calls on when and which heals/spells second to second (wow holy priest in past life.) When I see a push to an action camera approach I tend to see a move to aoe heals which is more about putting it in a place where it hits the most people. This removes those moment to moment decisions that make healing engaging in a different way than dps.

What do you enjoy about healing? Does it lend itself to action camera play? Is there any ideas you have on action camera and healing to keep it engaging?

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Robtzu

The more exciting and engaging healing is, the more party wipes and deaths we will have. How much is acceptable? Should I expect to die often? How painful is death? Lineage 2 a death would set you back a lot. In some other games, we would die because it was a cheap teleport.

tautau

If Alpha1 is a good predictor, then it was an L2 setback - at least - when you died.

JamesSunderland

Robtzu wrote: »

The more exciting and engaging healing is, the more party wipes and deaths we will have. How much is acceptable? Should I expect to die often? How painful is death? Lineage 2 a death would set you back a lot. In some other games, we would die because it was a cheap teleport.

True, depending on how harsh the average exp/gear durability death penalty is Healer will be a class for those with a strong heart and those who crave adrenaline peaks.
Lineage 2 exp death penalty was very harsh, having a healer with high level Resurrection skill that would recover a large amount of the exp lost was amazing.

Leukael

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Robtzu wrote: »

The more exciting and engaging healing is, the more party wipes and deaths we will have. How much is acceptable? Should I expect to die often? How painful is death? Lineage 2 a death would set you back a lot. In some other games, we would die because it was a cheap teleport.

True, depending on how harsh the average exp/gear durability death penalty is Healer will be a class for those with a strong heart and those who crave adrenaline peaks.
Lineage 2 exp death penalty was very harsh, having a healer with high level Resurrection skill that would recover a large amount of the exp lost was amazing.

Now that is a really interesting idea to add some utility and QoL to our kit/the game outside pvp. Great suggestion!

Dygz

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Im more concerned with: dps classes will not have the utility to provide support and healing. While the healing class cleric has a dps tree. I suport the segregation of roles, and dont feel the cleric should be able to do everything.

But its more just a worry caused by how the classes seem uncertain, with them both trying to segregate roles, and saying the cleric has a dps tree, so really we just have to see how the classes really play out.

I think you mean a Cleric Primary Archetype can also deal damage?
You should not be expecting a Cleric to out DPS a Rogue...even when the Cleric does no healing at all.

Ludullu

I'm too much of an L2 simp to want healers/supports doing any kind of dps. You balance the game around party play? Well then make it so that dps can't survive w/o supports and supports can't do shit w/o dps. Though obviously that kind of design would probably not fly in this day and age.

Dygz

Party play also means that Clerics can do more than just heal, like damage.
They just don't do as much burst damage as a Rogue.

Mag7spy

Healing support classes were pretty fun in rift since you can do some DPS as well. I'd do arena and I'd top damage as a dps cleric type class. I'd take it with the classes in this game you are going to make some cool dps type healers as well.

Elder

Mag7spy wrote: »

Healing support classes were pretty fun in rift since you can do some DPS as well. I'd do arena and I'd top damage as a dps cleric type class. I'd take it with the classes in this game you are going to make some cool dps type healers as well.

I loved the versatility and diversity of classes in rift. At the time I played it really felt like you could make any build work.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

I'm too much of an L2 simp to want healers/supports doing any kind of dps. You balance the game around party play? Well then make it so that dps can't survive w/o supports and supports can't do shit w/o dps. Though obviously that kind of design would probably not fly in this day and age.

It's not a good design though.

There are two paths. Tell me which sounds better to you.

1. Tank and Healer/Support together are about equal to one strong DPS class but only get half the exp if they manage the kills, slow and steady.
2. Tank and Healers/Supports are even together just 20-30% of a single strong DPS, if that.

In case #1, more people are incentivized to play Tank and Healer and become friends with a bond, and work on optimizing their skills in all areas, DPS, Healing, Mitigation. Then, a good DPS can join them, and everything flows relatively smoothly, expanding their group. Add more DPS and soon you have good reason to seek out stronger enemies.

In case #2, in order to be efficient one must make a larger group, seek DPS first, or 'reach the point where the Tank is not dead weight compared to just throwing more healing Mana at a strong DPS' (healbot). The relationships still form, but the core aspects of it aren't as cohesive and if the game's design is good, you still can't necessarily just 'add more DPS and go up the ladder' of enemy difficulty because the Healing Mana consumption rises too fast.

Healers and supports need to be capable of decent DPS, and it is safe to design them that way. Does anyone ever really think "Man let's get a party of just healers together since we do decent DPS we don't need any of those hard-hitters"?

There's 'social incentives' but you have to be careful about which ones you trigger. Making everything a situation where Tanks or Healers 'have to rely on DPS' or vice versa leads to situations a lot more like GroupFinder outcomes. It wasn't that way years ago, but it becomes that way quickly now, and the two social incentives are somewhat opposed.

You don't want people to 'have to form a pickup group at near max size to be functional', because it forces impatient people to group with easygoing people and can cause internal friction types that lead to declines in sociability for both types.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

There's 'social incentives' but you have to be careful about which ones you trigger. Making everything a situation where Tanks or Healers 'have to rely on DPS' or vice versa leads to situations a lot more like GroupFinder outcomes. It wasn't that way years ago, but it becomes that way quickly now, and the two social incentives are somewhat opposed.

You don't want people to 'have to form a pickup group at near max size to be functional', because it forces impatient people to group with easygoing people and can cause internal friction types that lead to declines in sociability for both types.

This is where my L2 bias shines the brightest. To me it's just too alien to even think about groups of randoms trying to find other people or whatever. I'm so used to "I have a group of people that I play with every day and our stack is set up in the way we want (with dps and supports requiring each other)". If you don't have such a group at the start of the game - you look for a guild to then find them there, or you find other people looking for your class and then you look for a guild who'd accept your group.

And as I said, I realize that this shit doesn't fly because literally all other games are too "just make a group with randoms"-based. I was just throwing my 2 cents on the "healers gotta be able to do dmg too" discussion.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

There's 'social incentives' but you have to be careful about which ones you trigger. Making everything a situation where Tanks or Healers 'have to rely on DPS' or vice versa leads to situations a lot more like GroupFinder outcomes. It wasn't that way years ago, but it becomes that way quickly now, and the two social incentives are somewhat opposed.

You don't want people to 'have to form a pickup group at near max size to be functional', because it forces impatient people to group with easygoing people and can cause internal friction types that lead to declines in sociability for both types.

This is where my L2 bias shines the brightest. To me it's just too alien to even think about groups of randoms trying to find other people or whatever. I'm so used to "I have a group of people that I play with every day and our stack is set up in the way we want (with dps and supports requiring each other)". If you don't have such a group at the start of the game - you look for a guild to then find them there, or you find other people looking for your class and then you look for a guild who'd accept your group.

And as I said, I realize that this shit doesn't fly because literally all other games are too "just make a group with randoms"-based. I was just throwing my 2 cents on the "healers gotta be able to do dmg too" discussion.

Ok, I don't personally agree with that being a 'design goal' either, but that's really not what this topic is about, so it's best for it to head off.

I will only add that I believe 'coming across someone of similar tendencies in game' is better than 'joining a Guild in order to form a party', both from the 'organic' side and the 'avoiding the types of behaviours that come with GroupFinder' side.

When your 'common interest' is 'leveling up'/'clearing content', rather than 'hanging out in a place you already wanted to be', I feel there's been a loss. Do you think that it might be the weaker PvE that causes you to have this feeling? If you don't have an 'area that you find interesting/specific mobs you enjoy the experience of fighting for what they are', it might be less likely to view the 'Grouping' experience as part of the 'out-in-world' gameplay?

(even if you answer this, I'm unlikely to engage further due to the core of the thread)

CROW3

Given the binary choice, I like #1 - but I always like playing the tank with the highest damage output to gain and hold threat. Plus, there are always times where the tank is the last one standing, and it’s nice to have a chance to kill that one last mob with 2% left to avoid the complete wipe.

This is where I’d hope a blend like Tank/Fighter would have augments to overall damage output, yet is still capable of being MT.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

When your 'common interest' is 'leveling up'/'clearing content', rather than 'hanging out in a place you already wanted to be', I feel there's been a loss. Do you think that it might be the weaker PvE that causes you to have this feeling? If you don't have an 'area that you find interesting/specific mobs you enjoy the experience of fighting for what they are', it might be less likely to view the 'Grouping' experience as part of the 'out-in-world' gameplay?

In my experience the "hanging out" part came along after finding the group/guild. You had to make an effort (same as other people) to jell well with others. Yes, sometimes this would not work out, but once it does - the relationships are that much stronger. The common interest was not even leveling up. It was "to win". And you had to do whatever it took to do so.

I personally liked that, because as an introvert it pushed me to learn how to converse with people and build relationships quickly. And L2's requirement to have a full group of both dps and supports meant that every person was valuable, which made it easier to build the relationship (because you had to, if you wanted to progress).

To me, if any class can be semi-self-sustaining, it just means that interpersonal dependence is lower and you can disregard people easier. Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption because I haven't played a game where most classes are self-sustaining, but I'm pretty sure Ashes will be that game for me so I'll see whether I'm wrong or not.

JamesSunderland

Not about equal damage to a strong DPS or 20%-30% of a strong DPS but around ~50% seems like a good compromise, meaning it takes them about twice the time to kill things than it takes for a strong DPS, but the tanks will be able to endure twice more damage from monsters and healers to out-heal the damage they receive for their twice as long fights.

It is important to remember that giving support classes about as equal damage as DPS classes diminishes the DPS classes value the same way DPS classes Self Healing and Off-tanking diminishes Healers and Tankers value.

I believe giving players customization resources and potential to make their classes do other things better outside their trinity aspect boundary is amazing, but for a class in the trinity to step into another branch of the trinity's territory they must have drawbacks that reduces their potential in their original trinity aspect.

Like a DPS class sacrificing part of their damage for some self healing or some defenses and a Healer sacrificing part of his healing power to ger more damage or defenses or a Tank sacrificing part of his defenses for more damage or self-healing.

ItsmeToki

How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allies as for ranged dps classes it is to hit enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
Lets get rdy for some hate

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allys as ranged dps classes are aiming at the enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
Lets get rdy for some hate

Support skills should not be more difficult than it needs to be, then there is a inconsistency with balancing pve. Action based healing is fine, and so is tab for this kind of thing no one is going to argue that. There are plenty of other ways to add action abilities and forms of utility that can be fun to play for them besides being a healing bot.

PenguinPaladin

ItsmeToki wrote: »

How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allies as for ranged dps classes it is to hit enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
Lets get rdy for some hate

Why do you do this?

Leiloni

ItsmeToki wrote: »

How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allies as for ranged dps classes it is to hit enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
Lets get rdy for some hate

We had a lot of good discussion on page 1 of this thread on various ways to do action combat healing and how it's been done well or poorly in other games. Re-read that page and let us know your thoughts.

I will say, though it can't be too difficult. Healing needs to be reliable for a lot of reasons so while skill should be a factor, aiming skill can't be too hard.

Leukael

Leiloni wrote: »

We had a lot of good discussion on page 1 of this thread on various ways to do action combat healing and how it's been done well or poorly in other games. Re-read that page and let us know your thoughts.

I will say, though it can't be too difficult. Healing needs to be reliable for a lot of reasons so while skill should be a factor, aiming skill can't be too hard.

I would like to see healer's skill expression be in resource management and choice in spell list to the best result. Like to me that is how healers are different to dps in terms of engagement of the player.

They can create skills that create incentives beyond aiming. Think like interaction between your skills having different results (a certain heal causes a hot to tick for all value at once, another can refresh the hot, and another could have the output boosted - just examples of how to make healing more interesting in decision making rather than accuracy and AOEs.)

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