DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

TLDR: Doesnt matter if we want them or not, DPS meters will be there in some format...

It matters since I prefer that the devs don't implement them.
And Steven plans not to implement them.
Also, mods are a bannable offense.
That's as good as it gets.

Kinda like Corruption.

You dont need a mod to parse data.

ACT is - by definition - not a mod.

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

I am against DPS Meters too.
Nothing good comes out of them.

Plenty good comes out of them.

I personally have identified, confirmed and reported fairly major bugs in games using combat trackers (the games RNG system was essentially incorrect). Fixing that bug was easy, and happened within a week of me pointing it out - and literally made every aspect of the game better.

To say nothing good comes from combat trackers is to say you don't understand what a competent person can do with a combat tracker.

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

Players wouldn't have noticed those bugs without DPS meters?

I mean, the game was three years old at the time. The developers hadn't noticed, let alone the players.

Many players thought things were "off" with the games RNG in some aspects that were more affected by the issue, but there was no suggestion that the entire RNG system may be off.

As a very basic outline of what happened, the games RNG was rounding. This meant a 0.6 would be a 1.

This meant that anything that looked for a random number between 1 and 10, for example, would have a 1 in 10 chance of getting 2 through to 9, a 1 in 20 chance of getting a 1, and a 3 in 20 chance of getting a 10.

It was always only the first and last number in the range that was affected, the size of the range didn't matter.

However, since some game systems wanted you to roll a lower number, and some wanted you to roll a higher number, and neither the number itself nor the actual roll itself were usually visible to players, the end result was usually that some things just seemed more likely to happen than they should, and some other things just seemed less likely to happen than they should.

However, literally no one had any idea that the actual RNG system of the game could be at fault.

The way I found the bug was by forcing a known RNG roll 10,000 times, and looking at the results - using ACT.

Those who want to test, can organize duels to determine how each piece of equipment and spell works.
More difficult is to test the PvE, as you cannot create the controlled environment so easily.

For testing purpose, we could get a test server, where combat history would presented better.
Do you think we will get that?
If not, then players have to find ways to prove occasional bugs, without breaking the ToS.

I mean, there are already combat trackers working for Ashes. They are able to parse combat from developer showcase videos.

They can't break the ToS, because they don't need to interact directly with the game client. They are interacting with YouTube, and Intrepid doesn't set YouTubes ToS.

The only tool Intrepid have for preventing combat trackers is to prevent players from screen capture at all. This would mean no YouTube videos, and no streamers - so is not all that likely to happen.

Noaani

Otr wrote: »

I am not familiar with legal stuff, what is allowed to put in ToS and what not.

As a simple point about this in relation to what I am talking about now, the terms of service of a piece of software can only apply to how you use that piece of software.

As such, the terms of service for Ashes of Creation can have literally no say at all in how I interface with my web browser running YouTube.

They could have a system similar to FFXIV where players are banned for basically saying other players are not good enough, but I don't see that being overly viable in a game with a decent amount of PvP.

But such tools can have bugs and consume processing power too.
Having them in game would be an advantage from this point of view, for those who use them.

While it is true they can have bugs, in my experience it is actually more likely that there would be a bug in the games data reporting than in the combat tracker.

However, processing overhead can be real, at times.

This is why I have long been an advocate for intrepid to include a combat tracker in Ashes as a guild perk.

Tragnar

Refreshing to see you agree, we're kinda used to opinions of unconditional prohibition under the threat of account termination

best way for this issue is to have it available ingame, but the devs can limit access to it by their own requirements and on their terms.

otherwise it just becomes necessary program you install if you get to certain types of guilds that just aim higher than casuals

Raise

No WoW-style add-ons or nonsense that encourages unchecked elitism and cookie-cutter builds, thanks.

Then everyone ends up running around with the same builds. It might happen anyways, but it will happen sooner with nonsense add-ons.

All that will do is create a stigma around certain classes and be used against players that just want to have fun. Players should be able to enjoy the game without getting kicked from groups because they aren't playing the way some 17+ year WoW war hero military veteran wants.

Signed,
17+ year WoW war hero military veteran

Noaani

Raise wrote: »

No WoW-style add-ons or nonsense that encourages unchecked elitism and cookie-cutter builds, thanks.

Then everyone ends up running around with the same builds. It might happen anyways, but it will happen sooner with nonsense add-ons.

All that will do is create a stigma around certain classes and be used against players that just want to have fun. Players should be able to enjoy the game without getting kicked from groups because they aren't playing the way some 17+ year WoW war hero military veteran wants.

Signed,
17+ year WoW war hero military veteran

My assumption on a big part of the reason everyone in WoW had the same build was because everyone had the same gear - or they were at least aiming for it.

In Ashes, that isnt likely to be possible.

EQ2 had heavy combat tracker use, and people in that game were not all running around with the same build.

You could also look at Archeage - a game that is very similar to what Ashes will be. The game had the lowest number of combat tracker users I have ever seen, yet an even greater case of people using and sticking to cookie cutter builds than WoW.

The one thing that is assured - even if my above assumption is not correct - is that combat trackers do not result in cookie cutter builds.

ariatras

Noaani wrote: »

Raise wrote: »

No WoW-style add-ons or nonsense that encourages unchecked elitism and cookie-cutter builds, thanks.

Then everyone ends up running around with the same builds. It might happen anyways, but it will happen sooner with nonsense add-ons.

All that will do is create a stigma around certain classes and be used against players that just want to have fun. Players should be able to enjoy the game without getting kicked from groups because they aren't playing the way some 17+ year WoW war hero military veteran wants.

Signed,
17+ year WoW war hero military veteran

My assumption on a big part of the reason everyone in WoW had the same build was because everyone had the same gear - or they were at least aiming for it.

In Ashes, that isnt likely to be possible.

EQ2 had heavy combat tracker use, and people in that game were not all running around with the same build.

You could also look at Archeage - a game that is very similar to what Ashes will be. The game had the lowest number of combat tracker users I have ever seen, yet an even greater case of people using and sticking to cookie cutter builds than WoW.

The one thing that is assured - even if my above assumption is not correct - is that combat trackers do not result in cookie cutter builds.

Valid points. It is however an easy access tool that can be used for such a thing. And the less of these tools are available the better off we'll be.

Final Fantasy has a interesting middle-ground. Sure, it has dps meters, but those are third party programs, which may or may not inject into the active game session. I don't know how it works. But it's illegal, they're just lenient as long as it's not used to negatively impact anyone else. So keep the numbers to yourself, essentially.

Now as for this middle-ground I talked about. There are instances (literal instance) where you can damage a dummy and the game tells you the dps you're doing etc. So you can still try and min-max. But you won't see other players dps (unless you use an illegal tool)

Archeage is also a weird example to use, given the nature of the game. (pay to win) It's designed to be annoying for lack of a better word, so you are tempted to go to the shop. As such, you're also far more likely to look up outside sources to minimize the suck.

If the game isn't designed to try and lure you to a store with convenience, and the balance is enough so that you're not obviously less able to deal with enemies. (Subscription-based usually) you'll find it used far far less.

There are also things dps meters don't quantify too well. You used EQ as an example too. EQ to my knowledge required CC quite often. That being the case, that already allows more flexibility within builds.

As a final thought:
The MMO landscape has shifted and changed a lot. As much as you might want back the days of old where cookie-cutter builds were far less common, all the information is a lot more readily available now. And people gravitate towards it a lot more now (cookie-cutter builds) people play games a whole lot differently too. When I first started playing MMO's that was it. I played one game. I loved it. But now people play multiple games, often on multiple systems. So games try and keep your attention, dangle the proverbial carrot on stick in front of you. Putting rewards around essentially every corner to keep the serotonin flowing. And, playing multiple games, people will try and streamline their rewards.

How would I fix it? Probably not give rewards for everything, but try and make the gameplay itself rewarding (which is hard, because this problem started a long time ago, look at Diablo's loot pinata, for example) Some game genres are relatively untouched by this, thankfully. Look at strategy games for example. Metas are figured out relatively fast, and people will play that meta online, against AI though (which is what most people play in that genre except maybe games like Starcraft which are essentially made for competitive play) People play these games not for reward, because playing and winning is a reward in and of itself.

I don't know what MMO's you played, but I am going to assume everyone here has played/tried WoW as it's the biggest MMO that has ever been. When was the last time you ran a Mythic+ dungeon for fun, or any dungeon/raid for run, and not for loot? Even if you go back to old raids, you're there for the loot, the reward.
And I think a game would be a lot healthier if playing the game itself was a reward. And try not to fall into the lootmill trap with ever increasing stat points and damage. Tying a player's power to gear has never been my favourite choice.

But I went off on a tangent, I apologise.

Noaani

ariatras wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Raise wrote: »

No WoW-style add-ons or nonsense that encourages unchecked elitism and cookie-cutter builds, thanks.

Then everyone ends up running around with the same builds. It might happen anyways, but it will happen sooner with nonsense add-ons.

All that will do is create a stigma around certain classes and be used against players that just want to have fun. Players should be able to enjoy the game without getting kicked from groups because they aren't playing the way some 17+ year WoW war hero military veteran wants.

Signed,
17+ year WoW war hero military veteran

My assumption on a big part of the reason everyone in WoW had the same build was because everyone had the same gear - or they were at least aiming for it.

In Ashes, that isnt likely to be possible.

EQ2 had heavy combat tracker use, and people in that game were not all running around with the same build.

You could also look at Archeage - a game that is very similar to what Ashes will be. The game had the lowest number of combat tracker users I have ever seen, yet an even greater case of people using and sticking to cookie cutter builds than WoW.

The one thing that is assured - even if my above assumption is not correct - is that combat trackers do not result in cookie cutter builds.

Valid points. It is however an easy access tool that can be used for such a thing. And the less of these tools are available the better off we'll be.

Final Fantasy has a interesting middle-ground. Sure, it has dps meters, but those are third party programs, which may or may not inject into the active game session. I don't know how it works. But it's illegal, they're just lenient as long as it's not used to negatively impact anyone else. So keep the numbers to yourself, essentially.

Now as for this middle-ground I talked about. There are instances (literal instance) where you can damage a dummy and the game tells you the dps you're doing etc. So you can still try and min-max. But you won't see other players dps (unless you use an illegal tool)

Archeage is also a weird example to use, given the nature of the game. (pay to win) It's designed to be annoying for lack of a better word, so you are tempted to go to the shop. As such, you're also far more likely to look up outside sources to minimize the suck.

If the game isn't designed to try and lure you to a store with convenience, and the balance is enough so that you're not obviously less able to deal with enemies. (Subscription-based usually) you'll find it used far far less.

There are also things dps meters don't quantify too well. You used EQ as an example too. EQ to my knowledge required CC quite often. That being the case, that already allows more flexibility within builds.

As a final thought:
The MMO landscape has shifted and changed a lot. As much as you might want back the days of old where cookie-cutter builds were far less common, all the information is a lot more readily available now. And people gravitate towards it a lot more now (cookie-cutter builds) people play games a whole lot differently too. When I first started playing MMO's that was it. I played one game. I loved it. But now people play multiple games, often on multiple systems. So games try and keep your attention, dangle the proverbial carrot on stick in front of you. Putting rewards around essentially every corner to keep the serotonin flowing. And, playing multiple games, people will try and streamline their rewards.

How would I fix it? Probably not give rewards for everything, but try and make the gameplay itself rewarding (which is hard, because this problem started a long time ago, look at Diablo's loot pinata, for example) Some game genres are relatively untouched by this, thankfully. Look at strategy games for example. Metas are figured out relatively fast, and people will play that meta online, against AI though (which is what most people play in that genre except maybe games like Starcraft which are essentially made for competitive play) People play these games not for reward, because playing and winning is a reward in and of itself.

I don't know what MMO's you played, but I am going to assume everyone here has played/tried WoW as it's the biggest MMO that has ever been. When was the last time you ran a Mythic+ dungeon for fun, or any dungeon/raid for run, and not for loot? Even if you go back to old raids, you're there for the loot, the reward.
And I think a game would be a lot healthier if playing the game itself was a reward. And try not to fall into the lootmill trap with ever increasing stat points and damage. Tying a player's power to gear has never been my favourite choice.

But I went off on a tangent, I apologise.

While it is true a combat tracker could be used to create a meta where everyone has the same build, it is also literally the only tool available to players to break that meta.

People absolutely will say "this build is the best for your class", or " your class is shit, I dont want you in my group". This is essentially unavoidable, because many people are dicks.

Even without a combat tracker, without any objective data, people will form opinions, share them, and others will absolutely take that as law.

The only way to fight back against this is with hard data

FFXIV's answer to this is probably the worst of any game I have seen.

In that game, if you even suggested that a player wasnt good enough, you could be banned for it. It may well be that the player in question was literally screwing up the encounter mechanics, but if you said anything you run the risk of getting banned.

Same with if you boot them - if they complain and say you booted them for under performing, you risk getting banned.

From anecdotal evidence, and from my perspective, they banned more players that weren't using trackers than players that were.

FFXIV's stance here could probably be better summed up by saying combat trackers are fine, talking about other players performance isnt.

I personally dont think that is healthy.

I agree with your last statement about the game being the reward, rather than rewards. I also agree with you on how that is not the case in WoW.

However, it is the case in other MMO's.

In both EQ2 and Rift, for example, the reward for completing one piece if content was the next piece of content. The gear you got from the first piece of content essentially acted as a key for the second.

Many times in both games my guild and I would run old, obsolete content purely because we enjoyed it. There were no rewards of value to us, other than the content.

The reason this isnt the case in WoW now is - as far as I can see - because Blizzard convinced people that dont enjoy raiding to get in and raid. When you have a group of people doing a content type they dont enjoy, they expect to be rewarded. They basically said "hey you, you want the best gear? Well, it's overthere in that raid, go get it!"

Basically they targetted raid content at people wanting gear, rather than at people that actually enjoy raiding. As such, obviously the raids they made had to reward players with gear, where as other games that left raid content to those that enjoy raiding could leave that raid content as the reward.

Keep in mind, Blizzard developed LFR at a time where developers in other games were talking about how your raid would need to work together for weeks to be able to take on the low end raid content. Blizzard were basically telling everyone they had no excuse not to raid, while other games were telling people to only raid if they were committed.

Perhaps not surprisingly, you cant use more raid content as a reward if the people running your raid content dont enjoy raiding.

Even if you dont agree with my take above, this doesnt have a whole lot of impact on combat trackers.

ariatras

Noaani wrote: »

ariatras wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Raise wrote: »

No WoW-style add-ons or nonsense that encourages unchecked elitism and cookie-cutter builds, thanks.

Then everyone ends up running around with the same builds. It might happen anyways, but it will happen sooner with nonsense add-ons.

All that will do is create a stigma around certain classes and be used against players that just want to have fun. Players should be able to enjoy the game without getting kicked from groups because they aren't playing the way some 17+ year WoW war hero military veteran wants.

Signed,
17+ year WoW war hero military veteran

My assumption on a big part of the reason everyone in WoW had the same build was because everyone had the same gear - or they were at least aiming for it.

In Ashes, that isnt likely to be possible.

EQ2 had heavy combat tracker use, and people in that game were not all running around with the same build.

You could also look at Archeage - a game that is very similar to what Ashes will be. The game had the lowest number of combat tracker users I have ever seen, yet an even greater case of people using and sticking to cookie cutter builds than WoW.

The one thing that is assured - even if my above assumption is not correct - is that combat trackers do not result in cookie cutter builds.

Valid points. It is however an easy access tool that can be used for such a thing. And the less of these tools are available the better off we'll be.

Final Fantasy has a interesting middle-ground. Sure, it has dps meters, but those are third party programs, which may or may not inject into the active game session. I don't know how it works. But it's illegal, they're just lenient as long as it's not used to negatively impact anyone else. So keep the numbers to yourself, essentially.

Now as for this middle-ground I talked about. There are instances (literal instance) where you can damage a dummy and the game tells you the dps you're doing etc. So you can still try and min-max. But you won't see other players dps (unless you use an illegal tool)

Archeage is also a weird example to use, given the nature of the game. (pay to win) It's designed to be annoying for lack of a better word, so you are tempted to go to the shop. As such, you're also far more likely to look up outside sources to minimize the suck.

If the game isn't designed to try and lure you to a store with convenience, and the balance is enough so that you're not obviously less able to deal with enemies. (Subscription-based usually) you'll find it used far far less.

There are also things dps meters don't quantify too well. You used EQ as an example too. EQ to my knowledge required CC quite often. That being the case, that already allows more flexibility within builds.

As a final thought:
The MMO landscape has shifted and changed a lot. As much as you might want back the days of old where cookie-cutter builds were far less common, all the information is a lot more readily available now. And people gravitate towards it a lot more now (cookie-cutter builds) people play games a whole lot differently too. When I first started playing MMO's that was it. I played one game. I loved it. But now people play multiple games, often on multiple systems. So games try and keep your attention, dangle the proverbial carrot on stick in front of you. Putting rewards around essentially every corner to keep the serotonin flowing. And, playing multiple games, people will try and streamline their rewards.

How would I fix it? Probably not give rewards for everything, but try and make the gameplay itself rewarding (which is hard, because this problem started a long time ago, look at Diablo's loot pinata, for example) Some game genres are relatively untouched by this, thankfully. Look at strategy games for example. Metas are figured out relatively fast, and people will play that meta online, against AI though (which is what most people play in that genre except maybe games like Starcraft which are essentially made for competitive play) People play these games not for reward, because playing and winning is a reward in and of itself.

I don't know what MMO's you played, but I am going to assume everyone here has played/tried WoW as it's the biggest MMO that has ever been. When was the last time you ran a Mythic+ dungeon for fun, or any dungeon/raid for run, and not for loot? Even if you go back to old raids, you're there for the loot, the reward.
And I think a game would be a lot healthier if playing the game itself was a reward. And try not to fall into the lootmill trap with ever increasing stat points and damage. Tying a player's power to gear has never been my favourite choice.

But I went off on a tangent, I apologise.

While it is true a combat tracker could be used to create a meta where everyone has the same build, it is also literally the only tool available to players to break that meta.

People absolutely will say "this build is the best for your class", or " your class is shit, I dont want you in my group". This is essentially unavoidable, because many people are dicks.

Even without a combat tracker, without any objective data, people will form opinions, share them, and others will absolutely take that as law.

The only way to fight back against this is with hard data

FFXIV's answer to this is probably the worst of any game I have seen.

In that game, if you even suggested that a player wasnt good enough, you could be banned for it. It may well be that the player in question was literally screwing up the encounter mechanics, but if you said anything you run the risk of getting banned.

Same with if you boot them - if they complain and say you booted them for under performing, you risk getting banned.

From anecdotal evidence, and from my perspective, they banned more players that weren't using trackers than players that were.

FFXIV's stance here could probably be better summed up by saying combat trackers are fine, talking about other players performance isnt.

I personally dont think that is healthy.

I agree with your last statement about the game being the reward, rather than rewards. I also agree with you on how that is not the case in WoW.

However, it is the case in other MMO's.

In both EQ2 and Rift, for example, the reward for completing one piece if content was the next piece of content. The gear you got from the first piece of content essentially acted as a key for the second.

Many times in both games my guild and I would run old, obsolete content purely because we enjoyed it. There were no rewards of value to us, other than the content.

The reason this isnt the case in WoW now is - as far as I can see - because Blizzard convinced people that dont enjoy raiding to get in and raid. When you have a group of people doing a content type they dont enjoy, they expect to be rewarded. They basically said "hey you, you want the best gear? Well, it's overthere in that raid, go get it!"

Basically they targetted raid content at people wanting gear, rather than at people that actually enjoy raiding. As such, obviously the raids they made had to reward players with gear, where as other games that left raid content to those that enjoy raiding could leave that raid content as the reward.

Keep in mind, Blizzard developed LFR at a time where developers in other games were talking about how your raid would need to work together for weeks to be able to take on the low end raid content. Blizzard were basically telling everyone they had no excuse not to raid, while other games were telling people to only raid if they were committed.

Perhaps not surprisingly, you cant use more raid content as a reward if the people running your raid content dont enjoy raiding.

Even if you dont agree with my take above, this doesnt have a whole lot of impact on combat trackers.

You're right the last bit didn't have a lot to do with combat trackers, but it does with the mindset of a large number of MMO players. A mindset that incentives-es efficiency over other things. That's where combat trackers become a problem. Because the majority of the players aren't hardcore raiders for example. And if you run the content for fun, rather than reward, someone possibly not playing optimally should not matter too much. Additionally is it not possible to have a damage meter/breakdown just for you, is there a reason the entire raid/group's damage numbers have to show up in the damage logs?

And about Final Fantasy, the way they implement there stuff is meh. It is hard to run into unfriendly people, which was refreshing at the time I came from WoW for example.
But the system I mentioned is the instance where you can test your skills, rotations etc. And it'll give you a breakdown. No add-on required. If you're not going for add-ons and people are dead set on combat trackers. That's a good way to go about it, no? Or what I said before, have a tracker just for you. In an ideal world you shouldn't care about the dps/healing output of others. I find the reason most people muck about in raids, is because they are not there for the fun of the activity but soley for the reward.

Dygz

Primarily there for the META, these days.
(same difference)

Tragnar

People that want trackers do not care about the live feedback, but they are looking for the after combat analysis.

The builds can be theorycrafted even without a tracker, because many players have coding knowledge and making a sim is super easy (even though i've seen some attrocious sims) - it is just about the community figuring out game mechanics and boom a few smart people find a way to squeeze the maximum of every archetype

Dygz

Yep. They can try that.
As long as it's not dev-built into the game...

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. They can try that.
As long as it's not dev-built into the game...

who here asked for sims to be dev-build in the game? Did you read what you were responding to?

Noaani

ariatras wrote: »

You're right the last bit didn't have a lot to do with combat trackers, but it does with the mindset of a large number of MMO players. A mindset that incentives-es efficiency over other things. That's where combat trackers become a problem. Because the majority of the players aren't hardcore raiders for example. And if you run the content for fun, rather than reward, someone possibly not playing optimally should not matter too much. Additionally is it not possible to have a damage meter/breakdown just for you, is there a reason the entire raid/group's damage numbers have to show up in the damage logs?

I agree with you that player mindset is important.

However, the mindset of players in a given game is a result of the systems that game gives players.

Using WoW as an example again, because it is one I have used many times, and you seem very familiar with it so this should ring loud and true for you.

If you create a game with an automated queue for dungeons, where players can be instantly ported in to a dungeon while the group is half way through, the end result in player mindset in that game will be that they treat each other as disposable.

The issue you have where people that want efficiency conflict with people that just want to run the content is not an issue pertaining to combat trackers. It is an issue of differing play styles conflicting. The reason it is so prevalent in WoW is because the LFG/LFR systems in the game just mash everyone together. Add a simple check to that saying "this group is here for fun", or "this group is here for efficiency" and that specific issue just melts away.

If the game leaves it up to players to form groups, the issue just again doesn't exist. In larger communities, players tend to make it clear that they are looking for a faster group, or for a slower, relaxed group. In smaller communities, players tend to know what a group will be like just based on who is in it.

Literally none of that is affected by combat trackers. it is a matter of playstyles clashing, and it just so happens that one of these playstyles tends to use combat trackers.

And about Final Fantasy, the way they implement there stuff is meh. It is hard to run into unfriendly people, which was refreshing at the time I came from WoW for example.

I had the same experience for a decade or so in EQ2.

I didn't meet a single person that I would consider inherently unfriendly. A few people I first met when they were having a bad day, but since we were on the same server and ended up having a bit to do with each other, I soon came to realize that it was just a bad day they were having.

In a game like WoW, with the LFG/LFR system, you simply don't get that continual exposure to the same people. You can fairly safely assume that if you run a dungeon, you will literally never see those same people ever again.

If you know you will see the same people again, and again, and again due to no cross server group function in a game, you both tend to get to know people a bit better, but you also tend to treat people better - as the pool of people you are able to form a group with tomorrow is the same as the pool of people you are able to form a group with today. You really don't want to piss in that pool.

But the system I mentioned is the instance where you can test your skills, rotations etc. And it'll give you a breakdown. No add-on required. If you're not going for add-ons and people are dead set on combat trackers. That's a good way to go about it, no? Or what I said before, have a tracker just for you. In an ideal world you shouldn't care about the dps/healing output of others. I find the reason most people muck about in raids, is because they are not there for the fun of the activity but soley for the reward.

The issue with this is that it is too contained. It is giving you a sterilized readout rather than a real world account of what can and does happen.

So, combat trackers that literally can not break the games ToS already exist for Ashes. A system like this isn't going to stop them from being further developed. The only thing that "could" stop them at this point is for there to be a built in tracker that (at a minimum) guilds can use to gain information from content the guild has taken on.

One of the other key aspects to the suggestion I made in this thread about 90 pages ago is that along with a combat tracker being a guild perk, it should only track members of that specific guild. This means that if you are not keen on trackers, and find yourself in a group with someone that has access to this built in tracker, they are unable to use it on you.

The other key thing to point out about this is that the player in question probably still knows who in the group is good, and who is shit, you really don't need a combat tracker to tell you that. This means that even having combat trackers segregated in to guilds like this isn't going to inherently stop the issue of people that are wanting to run content for fun joining up with people that are wanting to run the content efficiently.

Since that is not a combat tracker issue at all, it can't be fixed by the addition or removal of combat trackers.

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. They can try that.
As long as it's not dev-built into the game...

So the problem is not having a meta some people will use to be toxic and reject people based on this meta...
But simply you don't want other people to have proof if you are good or bad.

Because here it is...
Sims will say "your build is one of the worst DPS of the game"
Combat tracker will say : this character did more than this other... while first did not play meta and second yes.

When the first is the base for people to chose, you will get rejected for being out of meta.
With the second, you have a chance to prove that, even if out of meta, your gameplay is good enough.

People will find a way to chose who they invite. I personally prefer that selection is based on factual results.
Even more : simcraft will normalise what group should be, and even lower investment group will try to fit this. Because it will be the best way to hope have enough DPS from your team. While with combat tracker, people will just be sure those they recruit are efficient enough (not only for DPS, but also cc, dispell, etc etc).
People will hope to recruit the most usefull people, regardless what they are playing. But more efficient is a player, the stronger the guild he can join. so the middle tier guild have to set their expection lower for their recruit.

Top guild will be able to chose outside of meta, they will have combat tracker an illegal way, they will know how to test candidates, etc etc... While midtier guild won't have anything and will rely far more ... on meta.

Simcraft is just showing what the meta probably looks like... and if this is the only objectiv information we have, it will just focus people on following meta, even more on mid-tier guilds...
I played lot either in top and mid tier guild... And playing mostly non meta (because i play what i like ^^') i totally saw differences...

Also, simcraft does not allow you to know if you can improve or not. it says what are the best you can do, not what you are doing.

Noaani wrote: »

In a game like WoW, with the LFG/LFR system, you simply don't get that continual exposure to the same people. You can fairly safely assume that if you run a dungeon, you will literally never see those same people ever again.

For people who played from vanilla, this is absolutely obvious.
Recount and skada became slowly popular in BC and common in WOTLK. Even for BC heroic dungeon, aside hardest one (gt1 for example) people were really smooth on requirement, and when the daily was on the hard one, people was analysing candidate's stuff, and if it was problem in, they watched why the DPS is lacking and gave advice.

Then, in LK, at one point came the Duty Finder. and really fast, thing changed : people stopped to speak, except when healer or tank said "i don't move time people are not polite" (saying just a "hello" ) And then with cataclysm, and the duty finder being totally normal now in everyone's mind, and it was already the situation we know now.

The bad behaviours didnt came with combat tracker, but how the game worked. how people had to interract with others... and for those who began wow with vanilla or BC, the difference was fast obvious

Dygz

Some people will try to META.
The problem is devs building features to support that.

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. They can try that.
As long as it's not dev-built into the game...

who here asked for sims to be dev-build in the game? Did you read what you were responding to?

I think I agreed with you?
I didn't say anyone asked for sims to be dev-built.
Did you actually read what you were responding to?

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

Some people will try to META.
The problem is devs building features to support that.

Combat tracker is a way to fight meta, not support it...

Srixun

Just voicing for the sake of a voice in favor.

I like DPS meters, I dont see any issue with them.

My gut is that some people view it as competition, (it is) and are negatively viewing that in itself. I suppot DPS meters, Its a way to judge myself, easier, against others, in a certain format.

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