I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

So in a way, we might be the ones 'building a strawman' too, because of being so used to people on the internet who speak LIKE Mag does but actually believe they are REALLY REALLY good at things, like, top level.

Could be. I was just trying to give an example of pvp not being competitive (at least in the general definition of competition). Though I then went to reassure my knowledge of that definition and one sub-meaning couuuld maybe include "just killed a dude w/o a reason" under its umbrella, but at that point it'd be more of a philosophical and psychological issue rather than a semantic one.

Mag just likes to argue between 2 extremes, disregarding the middle of the spectrum, which I find at least a bit silly

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

So in a way, we might be the ones 'building a strawman' too, because of being so used to people on the internet who speak LIKE Mag does but actually believe they are REALLY REALLY good at things, like, top level.

Could be. I was just trying to give an example of pvp not being competitive (at least in the general definition of competition). Though I then went to reassure my knowledge of that definition and one sub-meaning couuuld maybe include "just killed a dude w/o a reason" under its umbrella, but at that point it'd be more of a philosophical and psychological issue rather than a semantic one.

Mag just likes to argue between 2 extremes, disregarding the middle of the spectrum, which I find at least a bit silly

You sure though?

It's just a perspective that is often hard for either the top (actual consistent top 10 players) or 'bottom' (players who are so casual they don't even know mechanics) to understand.

I think it might ACTUALLY be totally valid, within MMOs. to say 'PvE isn't competitive' through this lens.

If you aren't at the top, and you aren't at the bottom, chances are you are not actually competing with anyone at all, you're acting opportunistically against an AI that the top have already told you how to win against.

In PvP, at least, this isn't the same. Mid-level PvP is still competitive partially because the players are 'good enough to know what is happening', but not necessarily 'good enough to know what is optimal'. They're trying, adapting, and learning.

If the competition for PvE is 'to be first' and you as the 'average player' are NEVER first, you're not competing. I believe this point's been made before, but you just have to put the perspective on. Mag IS saying 'yes, because I am not trying for World First, this is not competitive, no one like me is actually competitive about PvE'.

Sure, it may not be a meaningful take to someone who is explicitly talking about top level competitive PvE, but it makes more sense to believe the speaker when he repeatedly tells us 'that's not what I'm talking about'.

EDIT: tl;dr Marathon running isn't competitive for the middle of the pack, that's not why they are there.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.

Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

People do that on the arcade trying to get the top score sure, that is more competitive than World first PvE because it is more on a fair playing field. Though still not something I see being that competitive as it is just a AI bot. Competition is against players directly, not indirectly with AI. Just because it isn't competitive doesn't mean it isn't challenging or it means the player is lesser then a pvper. Pve is just cooperative working together and figuring things out together until you have the guides then you just follow them (Which will be the normal experience for 99% of people in the game).

So, there is no competition in F1 racing, the Tour de France, most Olympic competitions. Companies in the same field are not in competition with each other, the Space Race wasnt a competition.

You are obviously just focusing on one definition of the word, ignoring the multitude of others.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

EDIT: tl;dr Marathon running isn't competitive for the middle of the pack, that's not why they are there.

This is funny cause I wanted to bring up marathons to make my point

Wanted to say that to most people marathons are just about completing the thing, while some people try going for best times and amongst themselves they are, in fact, competing.

Azherae wrote: »

In PvP, at least, this isn't the same. Mid-level PvP is still competitive partially because the players are 'good enough to know what is happening', but not necessarily 'good enough to know what is optimal'. They're trying, adapting, and learning.

This was what I tried addressing with my "thousands of meaningless pvp" post. I wasn't claiming that I was at the top of the server or even anywhere near top %ile, but exactly because of that the pvp in the middle could quite often be meaningless because people just had fun killing each other simply because they could.

And mag has contradicted himself from post to post.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive.

Mag7spy wrote: »

A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive.

Mag7spy wrote: »

It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.

It goes from "100% competitive" to "not always" to "if you're equal then it's definitely competitive".

So one might think that Mag understands that it's a spectrum rather than a binary, but every time pve competitiveness is brought up he immediately backtracks to "no, it ain't" and doesn't even interact the idea of competition in pve.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

And mag has contradicted himself from post to post.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive.

Mag7spy wrote: »

A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive.

Mag7spy wrote: »

It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.

It goes from "100% competitive" to "not always" to "if you're equal then it's definitely competitive".

So one might think that Mag understands that it's a spectrum rather than a binary, but every time pve competitiveness is brought up he immediately backtracks to "no, it ain't" and doesn't even interact the idea of competition in pve.

Hm, I believe I stand corrected here. I do tend to look 'through' things people say too often.

In the end, if one is contradicting oneself, even if it doesn't feel that way internally, others should be able to call you out on it and at least request or require clarification.

Good 'luck' getting it. No sarc.

Okeydoke

Dygz wrote: »

LMAO

Mag7spy wrote: »

LMFAO

ROFLMAO
Hell yeah bros

We all know only action combat pve is competitive. Wait, only tab target pve. One of the two. We all know it.

Ludullu

Okeydoke wrote: »

We all know only action combat pve is competitive. Wait, only tab target pve. One of the two. We all know it.

I know it, you know it, he knows it, everybody knows it.

Dygz

100%

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

And mag has contradicted himself from post to post.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive.

Mag7spy wrote: »

A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive.

Mag7spy wrote: »

It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.

It goes from "100% competitive" to "not always" to "if you're equal then it's definitely competitive".

So one might think that Mag understands that it's a spectrum rather than a binary, but every time pve competitiveness is brought up he immediately backtracks to "no, it ain't" and doesn't even interact the idea of competition in pve.

Hm, I believe I stand corrected here. I do tend to look 'through' things people say too often.

In the end, if one is contradicting oneself, even if it doesn't feel that way internally, others should be able to call you out on it and at least request or require clarification.

Good 'luck' getting it. No sarc.

He is taking things out of context in a conversation because he is bad on my statement at the end of the day. Not really hard to take points with other replies not relating to his own and use it, its just kind of sad. Exact reason what he means when he doesn't care to give respect.

Dygz

I think no one knows what your intended context is, at this point.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

I think no one knows what your intended context is, at this point.

When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.

Please do expand on that context. I'll gladly admit that I don't always properly understand what others say cause english is my thirds language and no matter how much I try to perfect it, it's just not at a point where I'd want it to be.

But I've reread the posts I linked and they still seem to align with my point.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.

We're just trying to undertsand what your context was intended to be.
You should be able to reframe it for us.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.

Please do expand on that context. I'll gladly admit that I don't always properly understand what others say cause english is my thirds language and no matter how much I try to perfect it, it's just not at a point where I'd want it to be.

But I've reread the posts I linked and they still seem to align with my point.

If pvp is involved while you are doing a PvX thing like that was mentioned with the dungeon it is 100% competitive.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

If pvp is involved while you are doing a PvX thing like that was mentioned with the dungeon it is 100% competitive.

So yeah, my mention of killing people on my way to farm applies to this. So even here it's a spectrum rather than just "competitive or not". Due to how L2's dungeons worked (same as Ashes) I was on my way to deeper mobs with better loot and would kill people on my way there if I saw flagged dudes. And their mobs would attack me so I'd kill those mobs too. I'd call that a pvx moment with non-competitive pvp.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If pvp is involved while you are doing a PvX thing like that was mentioned with the dungeon it is 100% competitive.

So yeah, my mention of killing people on my way to farm applies to this. So even here it's a spectrum rather than just "competitive or not". Due to how L2's dungeons worked (same as Ashes) I was on my way to deeper mobs with better loot and would kill people on my way there if I saw flagged dudes. And their mobs would attack me so I'd kill those mobs too. I'd call that a pvx moment with non-competitive pvp.

Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.

Guess we've got different definitions for competition

Mag7spy

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.

Guess we've got different definitions for competition

[/quote]

Well based on the information you gave you are on your way to a grind spot so you are trying to win, and he is trying to live so if its a fight (where someone isn't getting one shotted) that is already competitive by nature. I know most people would view that as such to different scales. A random ow 1v1 compared to ranked, compared to siege, and compared to a tournament have different levels of degree.

If you want to make a argument the person is bad and below you, you have already judged them through the battle in a competitive fight you just out classed them.

If you don't agree with the points above, what happened that made it not a competitive battle for all the times you went out and attacked people onto your grind spot?

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you don't agree with the points above, what happened that made it not a competitive battle for all the times you went out and attacked people onto your grind spot?

Imo "competition" means a common goal that people fight for. Me fighting/killing someone on my way to somewhere has nothing to do with my goal. I just see a character that I can just kill and I do it. Sometimes they kill me, so it's not like I just dominate everyone I see. But the main point, there was nothing we were competing for.

But you think that just fighting for your life is "a competition". And that's where we disagree.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.

Guess we've got different definitions for competition

Yeah, but only one of them is correct.

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