NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Why do you need to find a middle ground for something almost everyone does not wants which also confirms Steven's thoughts on this agreeing with him? Because I want to have a tool that I can use to improve my own gameplay w/o sacrificing my privacy in any given party event. In L2 it was just my chat, because L2 logged all your actions in the game and you could look through them after the encounter. If Ashes will have the same feature, I'd personally be fine there. But my other reason for trying to find a middle ground is because I want as many people to enjoy the game as possible, because I want the game to succeed to its max potential. I want another mmo that I can play for 12 years like I did with L2. And if that requires having some form of dps meter for all the PvE hardcore people to enjoy the game and give me someone to kill around a boss' spawn point - I'm willing to find a way to satisfy their desire w/o giving up my own preferences.
Mag7spy wrote: » Why do you need to find a middle ground for something almost everyone does not wants which also confirms Steven's thoughts on this agreeing with him?
Mag7spy wrote: » I'm sure there will be combat logs in game that should be only for your own personal incoming and receiving damage and you can use that to view how you are preforming.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I'm sure there will be combat logs in game that should be only for your own personal incoming and receiving damage and you can use that to view how you are preforming. And if it's there then any party can ask for screenshots from it, if they're dicks enough to do so. So this wouldn't be any different from you getting a recording of your log as a text file. And the boss telling you what he did or what was done to him wouldn't be any different from you just recording your screen during the fight. And this is why I suggested the thing I suggested. The amount of information available to you would not change in the slightest. The amount of information you retrieve from all that stuff would pretty much remain the same. The only thing that would change is the ease of access (and even that only applies to the boss/mob itself).
Mag7spy wrote: » Screen shotting some dmg numbers does not equal a detailed log of what you did right and wrong that is a false comparison unless you are screen shooting page after page of all the combat which isn't' realistic nor gives a proper judge of your total dps per second as well.
Mag7spy wrote: » Second that would not be the norm of asking for screens shots do to the extreme inconvenience, compared to making it easy and sending a log text base.
Mag7spy wrote: » So there is a pretty big difference, also almost everyone does not want this, you are fighting against what the community and steven wants.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Screen shotting some dmg numbers does not equal a detailed log of what you did right and wrong that is a false comparison unless you are screen shooting page after page of all the combat which isn't' realistic nor gives a proper judge of your total dps per second as well. I mean, I'd personally hope that in-game combat log has time stamps (or any chat window for that matter), so it wouldn't even have to be pages and pages. The party/raid leader would just say "give me a screenshot of your combat log from this time" and that'd be that. And as Noaani told you several times, dps meters are not just about how much dps you're doing at any particular moment. If a particular boss mechanic required a particular ability usage from some class in the raid, the raid leader could then ask players of that class to give him screens of the time when they had to use their ability. The only case where this wouldn't happen is if we don't get an in-game combat log at all. Mag7spy wrote: » Second that would not be the norm of asking for screens shots do to the extreme inconvenience, compared to making it easy and sending a log text base. Yeah, if the game's combat log is trash then yeah, it'd be a hassle. But then I would be against that too, cause, as I said, I want a tool to make myself play better and a proper combat log was usually enough for me in L2. Oh, and asking the raid members to do anything would be the norm in any hardcorish guild, because you can't be better than others if you don't work on your mistakes. And doing particular things is exactly how you avoid said mistakes. Mag7spy wrote: » So there is a pretty big difference, also almost everyone does not want this, you are fighting against what the community and steven wants. The only thing I'm fighting for here is a good combat log in my chat. Intrepid have already decided to show us the dmg numbers, so I'd assume there'll be a combat log too. And I just want it to look nice and note down all the things I do. The boss log would be a cherry on top, because, as I said, I'm not asking for insanely detailed info - just what ability he used and what ability was used on him, and all that stuff should be visible during the fight either way, so there'd be no additional info in that log. But if they don't give us that kind of stuff, it's not like I'll stop playing because of it. But all the hardcore PvErs might. And if Steven really wants to have a PvE scene (with all his talk of super difficult bosses), the very least he could do is give a personal self-improvement tool.
Mag7spy wrote: » You can use your eyes and judge if someone is using the right skill or not and talk to them in voice chat when to call it out. You don't need a dps meter to be doing that for you you have a voice and fingers.
Mag7spy wrote: » A proper combat log simply says your damage and incoming damage and that is good enough. You will make yourself a better player with good combat IQ and landing skill shots and out playing people as it is hybrid. You also don't need a dps meter to know you made a mistake if there is something you need to do during a mechanic it will be clear and you will know ahead of time talking to your guild and knowing the challenge. No one has issues with a good combat log that is fine and fair shows damage, shows incoming damage, shows evade or block amount, shows what skills are doing the damage, etc. Of course that should be personal and another person should be seeing your damage stats, if you choose to share it that is fine of course. People can use the damage log to test things and figure out more damage on their own without any additional tools. And since it will be hybrid combat even if they can sneak some additional programs in (before being banned) it won't be accurate of anyone combat and will have a high skill level to reach the best damage.
Otr wrote: » You want to change it? Steven says: no. You ask: why? He avoids the true answer by giving many other answers which are documented on the wiki. You decided an answer too already regarding why he wants that:he doesn't like them because he thinks they inherently lead to toxicity and maybe lack of "respect for his community"
NiKr wrote: » @Noaani how would you look at an anonymous+personal tracker? Every person just has the chat log of all the things they did during any given encounter (I mean they'll have it all the time, but maybe there could be a "recording" function where some duration of that log, set by you, could be recorded into a text file). And the boss itself would have give a UI window that shows all the skills/dmg done to it and all the abilities itself used throughout the fight (seconds by second report), but you would not know who used those skills, so you as a leader would have to still look at the battlefield during the fight rather than just looking at the logs after it. Any group of people who are completely fine with sharing their personal info with their leader would give him their text files and he'd be able to compile them together with the boss' info and see who did what and when and how. While in any party that doesn't want to do that, the leader would have to work harder to know who's is really slacking. And the players themselves would know that their leader did their hard work if the player got called out (or it would lead to some internal drama, but the personal proof would always be available so you'd always be able to ultimately find the truth). Would this kind of tracking work for you? To me this seems to preserve the idea of "I know how the fight went down and can see what can be done better (thanks to the boss info)', but also preserve the anonymity that meter-haters want to have, while still giving the hardcore meter-lovers the ability to do their own calculations. And any given player could work on their own skill betterment if they want to.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » DPS meters are trash and should not be included in a game, it is like saying that is a argument for people to use aim bot in a shooter. There is a reason why everyone is against it and no one wants that trash, I'd rather judge someone with my eyes as a person and help them grow or carry them than have people judging with dps meters. It is toxic in mentality even more so when you are involving groups. A combat tracker is nothing at all like an aim bot in an FPS game. A combat tracker is more akin to the match stats screen that shows up after basically every FPS match. If you want to compare things in an MMO to an aim bot in an FPS, you would be looking at macros, or at combat assistants. There is indeed a reason some people are against combat trackers. I've been involved in this thread since before it was this thread. The people against combat trackers so far have basically all fit in to three groups; those that misunderstand what combat trackers can and can not do (this seems to be you), those that attribute outcomes incorrectly to combat trackers (usually either the existence of a games meta, or situations where players are booted mid way through content), and people that basically just say "why cant you just follow the rules?". There has not been a single valid complaint raised against combat trackers in the 3k+ posts in this thread. There are people that say they are against them, but saying you are against something and having a valid reason for being against it are vastly different things. The community doesn't want it period, if you think everyone isn't valid that is fine everyone has their own bias. The community feels our points are valid and if a tiny group doesn't see eye to eye that is fine. It is clear what people want regardless if you choose to argue with everyone. The forums is only a tiny amount of people into games as well so that number of people that don't want it or don't care for it wold only be even more massaive. And I'm not talking about *2 or *10, forum population of games is much less than 1%.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » DPS meters are trash and should not be included in a game, it is like saying that is a argument for people to use aim bot in a shooter. There is a reason why everyone is against it and no one wants that trash, I'd rather judge someone with my eyes as a person and help them grow or carry them than have people judging with dps meters. It is toxic in mentality even more so when you are involving groups. A combat tracker is nothing at all like an aim bot in an FPS game. A combat tracker is more akin to the match stats screen that shows up after basically every FPS match. If you want to compare things in an MMO to an aim bot in an FPS, you would be looking at macros, or at combat assistants. There is indeed a reason some people are against combat trackers. I've been involved in this thread since before it was this thread. The people against combat trackers so far have basically all fit in to three groups; those that misunderstand what combat trackers can and can not do (this seems to be you), those that attribute outcomes incorrectly to combat trackers (usually either the existence of a games meta, or situations where players are booted mid way through content), and people that basically just say "why cant you just follow the rules?". There has not been a single valid complaint raised against combat trackers in the 3k+ posts in this thread. There are people that say they are against them, but saying you are against something and having a valid reason for being against it are vastly different things.
Mag7spy wrote: » DPS meters are trash and should not be included in a game, it is like saying that is a argument for people to use aim bot in a shooter. There is a reason why everyone is against it and no one wants that trash, I'd rather judge someone with my eyes as a person and help them grow or carry them than have people judging with dps meters. It is toxic in mentality even more so when you are involving groups.
NiKr wrote: » So you literally fucking agree with me. I just want the in-game combat log to give us all the things that we do (or are done to us) and to be able to save that in text form if I ever want to go through it (the same as I would do to a recording of the fight).
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Your idea is "Infiltrate, get past that silly ToS... then do what I want!". You start off shady. While I understand how you would arrive at this conclusion, it isnt quite accurate. Where I live, software ToS's can only involve discussions about how you use that software directly. Anything removed from that invalidates the entire ToS. Since I am able to use a combat tracker in association with Ashes without needing to actually be running Ashes at all (and in fact can run my tracker on a computer that doesnt even have Ashes installed), there is literally no legal way I am breaking the ToS - regardless of how it is written. If you want to say this amounts to infiltrating past the silly ToS, then I guess you can. At best, I would call it malicious compliance. I'll absolutely put my hand up for that one. So really, if your argument is "if you agree to the terms of service, you should stick to them", then all I can say is that under literally every scenario I have talked about (bar 1 extreme scenario), I have met my legal obligations under those terms - it just so happens that I am not as bound by them as some others may be (living in a place that puts people's rights ahead of company rights is fantastic). This is why I didnt bother discussing the ToS angel. I'm following the ToS to the level that I am required to follow it, regardless of what the ToS actually ends up saying - simplybecause everything I have talked about falls outside of what a software ToS can prevent me from doing. Now, going back to the point about good neighbors. Who is the better neighbor here - the person that wants to do an activity they are perfectly entitled to do, but who knows that the activity may upset his neighbors and so attempts to find a means by which said activity wont impact his neighbors, or the neighbor that wants to attempt to make it against the rules for the person to ever do that activity, despite there being no actual legal path to do so? Given this scenario, I know which of the two I would rather live next door to - clearly the person trying to make it work for both. Perhaps a better question is, which of these two people would you rather be yourself? So you will be content to never run Ashes with a combat tracker active. You will close the application of Ashes, then apply your combat tracker. Every time. Scouts honor? You'll take the extra time of doing it all out of game with Ashes closed. Right? I understand you properly? This is your intention?
Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Your idea is "Infiltrate, get past that silly ToS... then do what I want!". You start off shady. While I understand how you would arrive at this conclusion, it isnt quite accurate. Where I live, software ToS's can only involve discussions about how you use that software directly. Anything removed from that invalidates the entire ToS. Since I am able to use a combat tracker in association with Ashes without needing to actually be running Ashes at all (and in fact can run my tracker on a computer that doesnt even have Ashes installed), there is literally no legal way I am breaking the ToS - regardless of how it is written. If you want to say this amounts to infiltrating past the silly ToS, then I guess you can. At best, I would call it malicious compliance. I'll absolutely put my hand up for that one. So really, if your argument is "if you agree to the terms of service, you should stick to them", then all I can say is that under literally every scenario I have talked about (bar 1 extreme scenario), I have met my legal obligations under those terms - it just so happens that I am not as bound by them as some others may be (living in a place that puts people's rights ahead of company rights is fantastic). This is why I didnt bother discussing the ToS angel. I'm following the ToS to the level that I am required to follow it, regardless of what the ToS actually ends up saying - simplybecause everything I have talked about falls outside of what a software ToS can prevent me from doing. Now, going back to the point about good neighbors. Who is the better neighbor here - the person that wants to do an activity they are perfectly entitled to do, but who knows that the activity may upset his neighbors and so attempts to find a means by which said activity wont impact his neighbors, or the neighbor that wants to attempt to make it against the rules for the person to ever do that activity, despite there being no actual legal path to do so? Given this scenario, I know which of the two I would rather live next door to - clearly the person trying to make it work for both. Perhaps a better question is, which of these two people would you rather be yourself?
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Your idea is "Infiltrate, get past that silly ToS... then do what I want!". You start off shady.
Otr wrote: » I accept your opinion too. I see no way solving this problem so that everybody who comes to this thread to say "wow, what a great idea".
Mag7spy wrote: » There is a reason why its only you and teem to time a small handful of others fighting for it. No one else wants DPS meters.
Otr wrote: » The target audience is decided by the developers (in all games, not only MMOs). They have the right to do that. They also do not have to give a logical reason for their choice. That is an assertive right.
Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Your idea is "Infiltrate, get past that silly ToS... then do what I want!". You start off shady. While I understand how you would arrive at this conclusion, it isnt quite accurate. Where I live, software ToS's can only involve discussions about how you use that software directly. Anything removed from that invalidates the entire ToS. Since I am able to use a combat tracker in association with Ashes without needing to actually be running Ashes at all (and in fact can run my tracker on a computer that doesnt even have Ashes installed), there is literally no legal way I am breaking the ToS - regardless of how it is written. If you want to say this amounts to infiltrating past the silly ToS, then I guess you can. At best, I would call it malicious compliance. I'll absolutely put my hand up for that one. So really, if your argument is "if you agree to the terms of service, you should stick to them", then all I can say is that under literally every scenario I have talked about (bar 1 extreme scenario), I have met my legal obligations under those terms - it just so happens that I am not as bound by them as some others may be (living in a place that puts people's rights ahead of company rights is fantastic). This is why I didnt bother discussing the ToS angel. I'm following the ToS to the level that I am required to follow it, regardless of what the ToS actually ends up saying - simplybecause everything I have talked about falls outside of what a software ToS can prevent me from doing. Now, going back to the point about good neighbors. Who is the better neighbor here - the person that wants to do an activity they are perfectly entitled to do, but who knows that the activity may upset his neighbors and so attempts to find a means by which said activity wont impact his neighbors, or the neighbor that wants to attempt to make it against the rules for the person to ever do that activity, despite there being no actual legal path to do so? Given this scenario, I know which of the two I would rather live next door to - clearly the person trying to make it work for both. Perhaps a better question is, which of these two people would you rather be yourself? So you will be content to never run Ashes with a combat tracker active. You will close the application of Ashes, then apply your combat tracker. Every time. Scouts honor? You'll take the extra time of doing it all out of game with Ashes closed. Right? I understand you properly? This is your intention? I wont need to. Assuming Intrepid opt to include a provision in the ToS that prevents us running a combat tracker at the same time as the game client (which, to be fair, is untested where I am from), I can just run it on a second computer. The aim is to get it running on a phone. Again, Intrepid have no scope to limit what I can do on my laptop or phone while playing Ashes on my gaming computer. I'd still like an answer to the comment about being a good neighbor. Which of the two do you consider to be the good neighbor - the one wanting to participate in an activity they have every right to participate in, bot who knows it will annoy their neighbor and so are trying to find a way to prevent that annoyance, or the neighbor that is trying g to make that activity against the rules, despite there being no grounds for doing so? Keep in mind, the first neighbor is well within his rights to perform said activity in the most obnoxious, in-your-face manner imaginable, but rather than doing that, is looking to find a better way.
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » TheClimbTo1 wrote: » Your idea is "Infiltrate, get past that silly ToS... then do what I want!". You start off shady. While I understand how you would arrive at this conclusion, it isnt quite accurate. Where I live, software ToS's can only involve discussions about how you use that software directly. Anything removed from that invalidates the entire ToS. Since I am able to use a combat tracker in association with Ashes without needing to actually be running Ashes at all (and in fact can run my tracker on a computer that doesnt even have Ashes installed), there is literally no legal way I am breaking the ToS - regardless of how it is written. If you want to say this amounts to infiltrating past the silly ToS, then I guess you can. At best, I would call it malicious compliance. I'll absolutely put my hand up for that one. So really, if your argument is "if you agree to the terms of service, you should stick to them", then all I can say is that under literally every scenario I have talked about (bar 1 extreme scenario), I have met my legal obligations under those terms - it just so happens that I am not as bound by them as some others may be (living in a place that puts people's rights ahead of company rights is fantastic). This is why I didnt bother discussing the ToS angel. I'm following the ToS to the level that I am required to follow it, regardless of what the ToS actually ends up saying - simplybecause everything I have talked about falls outside of what a software ToS can prevent me from doing. Now, going back to the point about good neighbors. Who is the better neighbor here - the person that wants to do an activity they are perfectly entitled to do, but who knows that the activity may upset his neighbors and so attempts to find a means by which said activity wont impact his neighbors, or the neighbor that wants to attempt to make it against the rules for the person to ever do that activity, despite there being no actual legal path to do so? Given this scenario, I know which of the two I would rather live next door to - clearly the person trying to make it work for both. Perhaps a better question is, which of these two people would you rather be yourself? So you will be content to never run Ashes with a combat tracker active. You will close the application of Ashes, then apply your combat tracker. Every time. Scouts honor? You'll take the extra time of doing it all out of game with Ashes closed. Right? I understand you properly? This is your intention? I wont need to. Assuming Intrepid opt to include a provision in the ToS that prevents us running a combat tracker at the same time as the game client (which, to be fair, is untested where I am from), I can just run it on a second computer. The aim is to get it running on a phone. Again, Intrepid have no scope to limit what I can do on my laptop or phone while playing Ashes on my gaming computer. I'd still like an answer to the comment about being a good neighbor. Which of the two do you consider to be the good neighbor - the one wanting to participate in an activity they have every right to participate in, bot who knows it will annoy their neighbor and so are trying to find a way to prevent that annoyance, or the neighbor that is trying g to make that activity against the rules, despite there being no grounds for doing so? Keep in mind, the first neighbor is well within his rights to perform said activity in the most obnoxious, in-your-face manner imaginable, but rather than doing that, is looking to find a better way. So you understand the spirit of the rule, that they don't want combat trackers used. But you have a loop hole, so it's all good. You don't care about the spirit of the rule, you have a nice little work around. So even if Ashes doesn't want Combat Trackers ran in game, stated as such... you don't care because they legally can't stop you. You are never the good neighbor, no matter how much you want to believe you are, when you don't care about the spirit of the Terms. When you agree to them because you know you have loopholes you can exploit. The game is based on not using Trackers. You don't like the reasons Steven has given for this. So you don't care about the rule, or the spirit of the game. That's the point, man. I'm glad you can sit in the corner and say "tee hee, LEGALLY he can't stop me." We already know the intent, it's been expressed. The community is behind the intent. You don't care about that. That's being a bad neighbor. But you'll never understand and never admit that. So that's cool. I'm done with you. You are going to do what ever you want to do, regardless of what the ToS or stated objectives by Intrepid are. That's just who you chose to be. That makes you a bad neighbor. Period. I'm not changing to meet you half way to be a good neighbor, because you don't care about the spirit of the game that Steven has put forth.
TheClimbTo1 wrote: » That makes you a bad neighbor. Period. I'm not changing to meet you half way to be a good neighbor, because you don't care about the spirit of the game that Steven has put forth.
