NPC Armies and Territory expansion/creep

Having read the Relics page recently with a little history lesson on King Atrax, is it possible, with some of the systems that are in game and the characters mentioned, to see King Atrax's territory expand via undead army? Is that possible in an MMO, or are there constraints? Single player RPGs(Shadow of Mordor) or RTS games(Total War: Warhammer series) do this, however, unless I'm unaware of a particular MMO, they always require Players for this to happen. When players aren't around, nothing happens. Can something like this happen in Ashes? Unreal 5 Engine increases the map area without "zones", yes?

To elaborate, Undead Lich (King Atrax) resides in a particular area of Verra. If he's been in a slumber, he's awakened, and decides to go on an expansionary conquest of undeath. His army grows in size and physically traverses the landscape, altering its appearance, and progressing their own nodal points, eventually an incursion on our own lands takes place and players are required to defend their own lands or they will be consumed.

I would have AI measures in place, such as this, to offset any significant imbalances that allows for one side to own absolutely everything. Essentially, the game fights back.

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Solmyr

I think this would make a really cool global event if managed properly.

DarkTides

We keep opening more doors before closing the others, Dygz.

I wanted to know if they had made any mention of NPC armies and their ability to traverse the landscape...gave an example using King Atrax, to help identify what I meant and hoped would be possible....curious if they overcame the technical issues EQNext apparently had with NPCs traveling long distances(zonelines I guess)..and if Unreal 5 helped resolve this, due to how much larger the world can now be..

In another thread it was suggested to me that I read the wiki since something similar was already there. I hadn't read the wiki for years, and quite a few things had been added since. After giving it a read, I stumbled upon King Atrax in the Relics section of the wiki. Mentioned in numerous other sections as well.

Dygz wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean by “if you leave it alone, you arent missing anything aside from being denied the ability to return to normal.”

From the wiki:

"...incorporates random story driven interruptions to the normal flow of the world..."

"...That's the type of domino effect system or event you want that appears in a natural non-injunction way, but it presents a problem to the players to that they have to accomplish something at least if they want to change it back to the status quo...."- Steven Sharif

Dygz wrote: »

Who says that players can’t ally with Ancients and earn something by helping them stay in control of a Castle??
It’s probably more likely that a Guild will get better stuff from owning a Castle.

Seems like the Ancients are being portrayed as the main baddie that we are all fighting against, does it not?

From the ashes wiki, The Ancients:
The Ancients (the original creations of the Ten gods) and The Others (the banished gods) are the primary antagonists in the lore who defiled and perverted all of creation

From the events wiki:
Corrupted areas (zones/points of interest) can dynamically evolve with the progression of nodes.[19][32]

Harbingers that exist on Verra as dungeons are where The Ancients are capable of pushing into the material plane. They can continue to do so under the guise of the effects of corruption as it spreads.[20]
These are sources of NPC events that players need to address before they grow out of hand.[13][19]

Seems like("seems like" means I have not been presented info to the contrary) corruption and the ancients involvement are aspects of the game that we don't want to get out of control, just based on everything that I see as being repeatedly mentioned. To your point though, if you really want bad things to happen to an opposing guild/node or w/e, I suppose you may try to hinder them from halting the corruption spread near their node by PKing them, and in that sense, sure, it may help you if corruption spreads in their area. The plight of others is your reward.

Dygz wrote: »

Who says that players can’t gain anything by allying with the Goblins?
An Ice Wizard might gain quite a lot from allying with a Winter Dragon - especially since their abilities will be stronger during winter.

I don't know who says that. It's quite possible that you help the goblins instead. No clue.

From the factions wiki:
There are no predefined factions in Ashes of Creation.[1]

There are pseudo-factions (temporary factions) in Ashes of Creation.[2]
Node wars flag the citizens of the warring nodes and their allies as enemies for the duration of the node war.[2]
Guild wars flag the members of the warring guilds and their allies as enemies for the duration of the guild war.[2]
Social organizations offer quest lines to assault other organizations.[2]
We present the player with these soft friction events and then that determines who your friends and your foes are.[2] – Steven Sharif

Because we are non-faction based, you want to grant the user the ability to either do things that are "evil" or "good", so there has to be a plethora of choice on the evil side for them to participate in.[3] – Steven Sharif

Dygz wrote: »

And it all progresses the story one way or another, for good or for ill, so…I don’t understand what content is missing.
It’s just different content.

If the forest burning as opposed to not burning is what you consider content, then yes, the content is different, but this is not the content I'm referring to and I think you know that very well. Do you gain anything from being prevented the harvesting of lumber, as you watch your money maker get burned to the ground? The incentive is to put out the fire so you can return to harvesting lumber. The content here is the economic impact of the lumber trade, not something as trivial as watching the forest burn. That's just sparkles. Lumber harvesting removed, you need to do something to get it back.

Now, instead of a forest on fire, it's the corn fields that you're now blocked from getting....whatever is causing that is what you need to stop to be able to get back to being able to get the corn. "Back to normal"

From the events wiki:
"...we can't get the corn we need in order to build the reagents on the alchemical side to create this craft- That's the type of domino effect system or event you want that appears in a natural non-injunction way, but it presents a problem to the players to that they have to accomplish something at least if they want to change it back to the status quo...." - Steven

With respect to the Ancients and their castle...since they are the main antagonists, it just seems unlikely that we are supposed to help them. Could be a secret they are holding onto, or an idea that's on the backburner, but I think if we could, they would have said so, at least for this. That's a main feature, if so.

Dygz wrote: »

What is your suggestion supposed to encourage? King Atrax and his horde marches across the world and what?
We’re going to try to stop that the same as we try to stop any other threat.
Or let it play out so we can see what happens.

Well, my suggestion is more realistic and reflective of what transpires in reality, along with fantasy novels and movies. It's just cooler that way. I was initially asking if this was possible, or if technical issues prevent this from occurring. If they can't do it, then by default, NPC armies cannot march across the lands over great distances and they have to come up with some other way to simulate something close to this...which is spontaneously poofing from out of nowhere, in any given local area, based on the trigger that caused it to happen.

If an NPC faction like this could exist, and provide a significant threat, whereby it can behave as players do with nodes etc, that might be one cool way to breathe life into the world.

Dygz wrote: »

As far as I know, Corruption does not spread.
Where is the info on Corruption spreading to a Region??
I know nothing about Corruption timers. Where is that info??

Corruption spreading is found in the events section of the wiki, quote from Steven. It's also mentioned in the youtube video that you linked, where Steven is talking about events.

The timer ticking, when Steven says that, it's not a literal timer/clock at the top of your screen, or at least thats not what I believe he means. If you need to be to work by 7am and its 6:50am, you have 10 minutes or you're late. If you need to reach 6000 clicks on your car before you bring it in for scheduled maintenance, then who knows when that happens. Depends how much driving you do. In each case, a timer is ticking, as in, its just a matter of time.

Dygz

DarkTides wrote: »

I wanted to know if they had made any mention of NPC armies and their ability to traverse the landscape...gave an example using King Atrax, to help identify what I meant and hoped would be possible....curious if they overcame the technical issues EQNext apparently had with NPCs traveling long distances(zonelines I guess)..and if Unreal 5 helped resolve this, due to how much larger the world can now be..

It's all the same door.
None of what you wrote answered my question about what you mean by “if you leave it alone, you arent missing anything aside from being denied the ability to return to normal.”
I'm human and can forget some details, but I know more about the game than what's written in the wiki.
So I fully undertsand that one of the motivations for participating in Events it to return things to the status quo.

I still don't know what you are trying to convey by stating:
“If you leave it alone, you arent missing anything aside from being denied the ability to return to normal.”
And I don't undertsand how your suggestion is intended to alleviate the dilemma you perceive from what we know of the current design.

DarkTides wrote: »

Seems like the Ancients are being portrayed as the main baddie that we are all fighting against, does it not?

The Ancients are one big baddie that will be a major adversary for both the adventurers from Sanctus and the Tulnar. Yes. Steven is loathe to release much lore, so that's the primary example of a big baddie we have right now.
That does not answer the question I asked you.

DarkTides wrote: »

From the events wiki:
Corrupted areas (zones/points of interest) can dynamically evolve with the progression of nodes.

There are pockets in the world where Corruption lingers in the world.
But, this sounds like it's really just another example of an Ashes event.
It's not much different than the spread of the Perpetual Winter caused by the Winter Dragon.
It's not much different than the example I gave.
I don't understand how it's different than the example you gave of King Atrax. If you don't stop the smaller predicate events, they can turn into Major Global Events.

DarkTides wrote: »

To your point though, if you really want bad things to happen to an opposing guild/node or w/e, I suppose you may try to hinder them from halting the corruption spread near their node by PKing them, and in that sense, sure, it may help you if corruption spreads in their area. The plight of others is your reward.

The reward is participating in pushing the server story in interesting directions.
I might choose to "worship" The Others instead of The Seven. That might include supporting the Ancients and the spread of corruption.
I might choose to support the Goblins instead of oppose them because I believe in equal rights for Goblins.
I might choose to support the Goblins because I like Goblins more than I like Empyrean.
I might choose to support the Winter Dragon because the Perpetual Winter makes my Ice Wizard's abilities stronger and provides me access to Ice related gear and cosmetics.

DarkTides wrote: »

If the forest burning as opposed to not burning is what you consider content, then yes, the content is different, but this is not the content I'm referring to and I think you know that very well. Do you gain anything from being prevented the harvesting of lumber, as you watch your money maker get burned to the ground? The incentive is to put out the fire so you can return to harvesting lumber. The content here is the economic impact of the lumber trade, not something as trivial as watching the forest burn. That's just sparkles. Lumber harvesting removed, you need to do something to get it back.

I have no clue what you are referring to. That's why I asked you the question.
Resources are scarce. I could be prevented from harvesting the lumber I want because the region has been over-harvested and that lumber no longer exists where it used to. I could be prevented from harvesting the lumber I want because rival players have moved in and they believe only they should have access to that lumber. Could be that some other Node's ZOI has overtaken that region and the Mayor declares me an Enemy of the State because they want to keep the lumber for themselves.

If I see a burning forest, it's quite natural to want to put the fire out. It's easy to understand that if I just let a forest burn, plenty of other disastrous eevents might result from that...beyond just the depletion of lumber.
I don't need the depletion of my lumber harvesting (or how a lack of lumber disrupts the economy) to be my primary motivation for saving a forest from burning.

DarkTides wrote: »

Now, instead of a forest on fire, it's the corn fields that you're now blocked from getting....whatever is causing that is what you need to stop to be able to get back to being able to get the corn. "Back to normal"

If I see corn fields on fire, I'm probably going to try to see if I should put the fire out.
Because it's typically a good idea to put out fires. Unless someone has a great reason for the fire to be there.
I wouldn't be thinking that I need to "return things to normal" or need to return to the status quo.

It could be that burning corn fields provides alchemical reagents I want, so it behooves me not only to let the corn fields burn, but also to cause corn fields to burn.
Perhaps one of The Others I worship is a pyro and I'm a Fire Wizard.
Could be that causing corn fields to burn helps to spread my Religion.

DarkTides wrote: »

With respect to the Ancients and their castle...since they are the main antagonists, it just seems unlikely that we are supposed to help them. Could be a secret they are holding onto, or an idea that's on the backburner, but I think if we could, they would have said so, at least for this. That's a main feature, if so.

The Ancients are a major baddie. The devs expect most players to support the Seven and oppose The Others and The Ancients, but...
"There will be quest paths that do take you along a more darker route which can lead to certain types of 'worship' for The Others."
---Steven

DarkTides wrote: »

Well, my suggestion is more realistic and reflective of what transpires in reality, along with fantasy novels and movies. It's just cooler that way. I was initially asking if this was possible, or if technical issues prevent this from occurring. If they can't do it, then by default, NPC armies cannot march across the lands over great distances and they have to come up with some other way to simulate something close to this...which is spontaneously poofing from out of nowhere, in any given local area, based on the trigger that caused it to happen.

And... I still have no clue what is supposed to be making your suggestion more "realistic" than the current game design. I don't know how you think your suggestion differs significantly from the current game design.
As far as I can tell, the devs are already doing what you suggested: If we don't stop the minor, local predicate events, they can literally snowball into Major Global Events.
Just NPCs will not be building Nodes.
Events don't really just "poof" out of nowhere.

In the video above Steven even states:
"What the Events represent is a way for us to attempt to introduce content in a more fluid, more natural, in a more progression based way, that the world is reacting to player-based activity."

DarkTides wrote: »

If an NPC faction like this could exist, and provide a significant threat, whereby it can behave as players do with nodes etc, that might be one cool way to breathe life into the world.

We do not live in a time when AI can behave as players do. We don't have the tech for that, yet.
And the Ashes devs are not striving to even match the potential of StoryBricks.
Still NPCs can provide a signifcant threat. And during Monster Coin attacks, players can inhabit mobs to wreak havoc for a Node in a variety of ways.

Dygz wrote: »

Corruption spreading is found in the events section of the wiki, quote from Steven. It's also mentioned in the youtube video that you linked, where Steven is talking about events.

Mmmm hmmmn. I thought you were referring to player Corruption.
Yes. As Steven says in the video above...there's a wide variety of Events that can spread.
Could be a plague, could be a natural disaster, could be a response from an NPC faction.
There are pockets of a form of corruption that is different than player Corruption (which Clerics have a utility skill to dissipate) which could spread as an Event. Yes.

DarkTides wrote: »

It seems like when corruption spreads, it spreads to a region, but the effects are local, like monster attacks are more frequent in those areas.. but they spawn out of nowhere and remain local, despite a region being affected... a timer is ticking... if you dont defeat a certain local areas corruption, when that timer is finished counting the next local area gets affected, and then things randomly spawn there... nothing actually physically moves around.

DarkTides wrote: »

The timer ticking, when Steven says that, it's not a literal timer/clock at the top of your screen, or at least thats not what I believe he means. If you need to be to work by 7am and its 6:50am, you have 10 minutes or you're late. If you need to reach 6000 clicks on your car before you bring it in for scheduled maintenance, then who knows when that happens. Depends how much driving you do. In each case, a timer is ticking, as in, its just a matter of time.

Steven says that there is always a clock ticking. A volcano is prepping to erupt. Tectonic plates are moving towards an earthquake. A plague is imminent. A war is brewing.
In Ashes, Events are triggered by a variety of things besides just time. Many of the triggers derive from what buildings are constructed and which Nodes are progressed to a specific Stage. So, yes, if your Py'Rai Village never builds a Temple to Norlan and then progresses to become an Empyrean Town with a Temple to Resna, you will have missed the time period for when the Event associated with Py'Rai Temple to Norlan can be triggered and that region will have moved on to a different Event.
Ashes is a game that is programmed, so you can expect there to be hooks in the code that say things like "If the Goblins are not defeated in 6 days, Stage 3 of the Event will trigger." And, if you defeat the Goblins before 6 days, Stage 3 of the Event will not trigger. But, you can also expect that if Stage 3 is triggered, it's likely to become a regional Event, rather than a local event. That doesn't mean that when you trigger the Goblin Event, if you don't defeat the Goblins in 6 days, the Goblin Event ends and we move on to the Volcano Event as if there is a 6 day Goblin Event that disppears once the timer ends.

I don't know where you got the notion that "nothing actually physically moves around".

https://youtu.be/tqsybteR44Q?t=2779
mark 47:19

"There's obvioulsy going to be Events that spawn as a certain type of development, so, in a sense that's kind of timed because it's put behind an achievement in the game and the community and their development. But, at the same time, we don't ever want there to be stagnation so if Events don't occur within a certain time period, they could randomly have a window when they can come up."
---Steven

I don't have time to also write out Jeffrey's subsequent quote.
But, you should listen to it.

DarkTides

Appreciate the references you have been giving Dygz, and anyone else.

With that said, I still dont know if what I outlined and questioned in my opening post is a thing in the game. I refuse to speculate and arrive at a yes.

I didnt come across that quote from Mr Steven regarding paths where players can help "The Others"... little vague on how thats accomplished, but thats cool. I guess he didnt elaborate any further?

With respect to "A.I".... I think when AI is mentioned, some people imagine a god like computer brain, when thats not needed. Have you ever played Total War Warhammer? Warcraft? Starcraft? Shadows of Mordor with the Nemesis system? They should be able to do this with an NPC faction. Happens in so many other games.

Nothing actually physically moves.... I asked if Unreal 5 solves the problems EQNext was having with NPC armies moving across large distances of land.(if npc armies that move across the land is even a thing in AOC) They apparently couldnt make it happen in EQNext. Changing terrain being one issue, and I think zonelines? Fuzzy on my recollection. Probably BSing their issues... so if the NPCs dont gather up in one local area and physically move to the next local area and spreading their corruption or w/e that way, then what does that leave?

Dygz

DarkTides wrote: »

If an NPC faction like this could exist, and provide a significant threat, whereby it can behave as players do with nodes etc, that might be one cool way to breathe life into the world.

What you wrote is that you want the AI in Ashes to behave like players. The AI in Ashes is not going to behave like players.
The AI in Warcraft and Starcraft does not behave like player characters in an MMORPG.
If all you are saying is that you want the AI to move across the land and attack Nodes, we see a glimpse of that with the Goblins in the Events demo.
But, no, AI is not going to be building and progressing Nodes in Ashes.

Where is the dev quote that led you to believe "nothing actually physically moves"?
UE5 really has nothing to do with whether or not the AI can walk their way across the map.
EQNext was canceled way in the early stages of Pre-Alpha, so that's not a valid example.
Landmark had issues getting their AI to travel even a couple of feet due to the AI needing to re-evaluate changes to the voxel environment. That has nothing to do with Ashes since Ashes is not using voxels.
NPCs are not really "spreading their corruption".
NPCs can move across the map in subsequent Stages if we don't squash them in the early Stages of the Event.
Same for natural disasters.
Same for unnatural disasters.
Same for plagues.
Same for corruption - if an Event with corruption is triggered.

DarkTides

Dygz wrote: »

DarkTides wrote: »

If an NPC faction like this could exist, and provide a significant threat, whereby it can behave as players do with nodes etc, that might be one cool way to breathe life into the world.

What you wrote is that you want the AI in Ashes to behave like players. The AI in Ashes is not going to behave like players.
The AI in Warcraft and Starcraft does not behave like player characters in an MMORPG.
If all you are saying is that you want the AI to move across the land and attack Nodes, we see a glimpse of that with the Goblins in the Events demo.
But, no, AI is not going to be building and progressing Nodes in Ashes.

Where is the dev quote that led you to believe "nothing actually physically moves"?
UE5 really has nothing to do with whether or not the AI can walk their way across the map.
EQNext was canceled way in the early stages of Pre-Alpha, so that's not a valid example.
Landmark had issues getting their AI to travel even a couple of feet due to the AI needing to re-evaluate changes to the voxel environment. That has nothing to do with Ashes since Ashes is not using voxels.
NPCs are not really "spreading their corruption".
NPCs can move across the map in subsequent Stages if we don't squash them in the early Stages of the Event.
Same for natural disasters.
Same for unnatural disasters.
Same for plagues.
Same for corruption - if an Event with corruption is triggered.

So you don't know for sure. Oh well. I have hopes.

Not that it's a bad thing to have an imagination, but you imagined quite a bit of scenarios to take place throughout your posts and people can likely follow along with that imagining, even if they dont actually happen.

When the shoe is on the other foot and you're confronted with someone elses imagination, for some reason you are requiring a detailed thesis, and a recap of everything already previously mentioned, to assist in making the connection between ideas, or else you warp and twist what was being said, either by taking things way too literal, and/or failing to bridge the gap between what was said about another game and how something similar can arise in AOC. First time I mentioned this, some other guy in this thread said that would be awesome to have. Another says they dont like fighting NPCs in this way because its not the same as fighting a human... those guys understood in a heart beat. Why is that? I would love to map it all out, and quote my own quotes, from individual posts, so the bridge is clear in sight, line em all up for you, but thats a lot of work and I dont have the time.

"The AI in Warcraft and Starcraft does not behave like player characters in an MMORPG".. how did even come up with this based on what I said? I can try maybe later to elaborate, but I think you know better Dygz and can figure out how it would be implemented.

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