Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used. The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong. There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this. If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time. Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know. Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers. Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers. The game should correctly show information- this is true. However, many games do not. This is just a fact - if you look in to any games combat system deep enough, you will find mistakes (my honest assumption as to why Steven doesnt want trackers is that he doesnt want people like me finding mistakes in his game, literally nothing else makes sense from a game developer perspective - though obviously he wouldn't tell us that is his reason). I mean, we can advocate all we like for tool tips and such to be correct, but unless we have a means of validating what is on them, we have no way of, well, validating them. If we cant point to something and tell Intrepid it is wrong, they aren't going to check it. This is actually the base level argument for trackers, everything else is secondary or tertiary arguments. Without a combat tracker, players have no means of checking developers work. Developers have no incentive for checking their own work if players aren't able to point out issues - and as such games where players use trackers have fewer mistakes and/or bugs. This isnt a theoretical debate, it is practical. I have given an example in this thread of a far reaching bug in an MMO that I personally pointed out to developers who then fixed it, making literally every aspect of that game better - and a tracker was absolutely key in that. The buf in question was noticed in many different aspects of the game, but no one could figure it out for years - the developers looked in to different things a number of times that were a result of this bug, but never actually spotted it. About the only thing you can say to this if you dont want trackers is that you are fine with bugs remaining in the game, even if they are bugs that are noticable.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used. The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong. There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this. If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time. Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know. Or you make this point know and advocate for having stats show correct terms so people know, which has nothing to do with adding trackers. You are simply using what you would view as "bad design, or not enough information." As a reason for trackers which you are simply using as a scapegoat to push for trackers. Correct answer - The game should correctly show your your stats and skills effect your abilities correction with a detailed info of your stats. Unless they go the route of not showing damage numbers.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used. The problem here is - many games tell you how they think the stats work, but these are often wrong. There have been many games in which I have proven to the people that designed the actual combat system that it didnt function the way they thought it did - and obviously trackers are key to doing this. If the game tells you what a stat does, all it is doing is telling you what the developers think it does. In order to know what it actually does, you need a tracker and a few weeks of spare time. Fact is, without trackers - and the a utility to openly talk about them - you wont actually know any detail at all about a games combat. You'll only ever think you know.
Mag7spy wrote: » If you want to talk about knowing how your stats affect your skills then ask for that information to be shown not for a tracker to be used.
HybridSR wrote: » Noaani wrote: » HybridSR wrote: » Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.- @HybridSR Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist. It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS. Are you in such a rush to have 80% of the class combos outside raid parties?... I repeat. There is NOTHING that requires a DPS meter. If you're playing the game, you know what your gear is and the damage you're doing. You can easily compare it to others. You don't need a DPS meter to kill bosses in an open world PvP. Nothing that helps to enforce a meta is a good idea and a DPS meter is the most meta enforcing trash you can possibly add to the game. Again, no thanks-
Noaani wrote: » HybridSR wrote: » Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.- @HybridSR Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
HybridSR wrote: » Absolutely not. Literally all a DPS meter does is bring toxicity and we'll already have plenty of that in an Open World PvP game. Nobody needs a DPS meter. Nobody.-
Noaani wrote: » Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist.
MrPockets wrote: » I want to try and explain to you that "toxic" behavior is a very broad subject and is different for each player. You seem to be stuck on this example of kicking players from parties, but I would argue that is the least of my worries. I will try to provide examples of what I mean, and what makes me personally not enjoy PvE content as much when meters are heavily involved. * Note: the term "toxic" is very much subjective and it not the same for every individual * When meters become part of the average player's UI, it tends to be something they end up fixating on. Examples of how the average player can feel "toxic": - They look more at the meters more than the fight's mechanics, leading to wipes - They only talk to others about how much damage they did, compared to others. leading to repetitive and stale conversations. It becomes not enjoyable to do content with that player. - They view meters as required to do ALL content, and not just the hardest. Leading to flaming others for not using it, or gatekeeping. Now the obvious rebuttal to this type of behavior is "just don't play with those people"....but the problem is that this behavior is MUCH more likely to show up in the average player when meters are easily accessible and/or accepted. And now it becomes more difficult for me to find a solid group of players to play with, that isn't tainted by one of these "toxic" players.
MrPockets wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist. @Noaani It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means. Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time. MrPockets wrote: » I want to try and explain to you that "toxic" behavior is a very broad subject and is different for each player. You seem to be stuck on this example of kicking players from parties, but I would argue that is the least of my worries. I will try to provide examples of what I mean, and what makes me personally not enjoy PvE content as much when meters are heavily involved. * Note: the term "toxic" is very much subjective and it not the same for every individual * When meters become part of the average player's UI, it tends to be something they end up fixating on. Examples of how the average player can feel "toxic": - They look more at the meters more than the fight's mechanics, leading to wipes - They only talk to others about how much damage they did, compared to others. leading to repetitive and stale conversations. It becomes not enjoyable to do content with that player. - They view meters as required to do ALL content, and not just the hardest. Leading to flaming others for not using it, or gatekeeping. Now the obvious rebuttal to this type of behavior is "just don't play with those people"....but the problem is that this behavior is MUCH more likely to show up in the average player when meters are easily accessible and/or accepted. And now it becomes more difficult for me to find a solid group of players to play with, that isn't tainted by one of these "toxic" players.
HybridSR wrote: » It's pretty obvious that certain class combos will have a higher DPS thus automatically making top guilds aiming to have those specs into their raid parties, forcing a meta from the get go. And obviously, even random parties will have people complaining about someone not doing enough DPS.
Noaani wrote: » I mean, if the game is developed properly, if class balance is set to where different builds have apros and cons in different situations, then all a combat tracker will do is show players that this is the case.
MrPockets wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Are you able to give an example of where trackers bring toxicity - as in where toxicity would exist, but if the only change at all that was made to the situation was no tracker, the toxicity would not exist. @Noaani It's funny how myself and others have tried to explain this, but you seem to refuse to try and understand our point of view. It's ok that you probably have a different view for what "toxic" means...but you also need to acknowledge that others ALSO have a different view of what it means. Here it is again, since you seemed to miss it the first time.
HybridSR wrote: » Classes that outDPS others will always be better in raid groups.
Mag7spy wrote: » No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want. Yes, I will discredit viewpoints that have no merit to them. Any view or opinion that has no merit should be discredited. I mean, you are just asking for your opinion to be discredited if you are saying something that many people enjoy shouldnt be in the game because someone else doesnt like the way they enjoy it (I dont want trackers because some players may spend too long looking at them). That just isnt a good take on things at all.
Mag7spy wrote: » lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't. Which points of mine are weak? Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works. This is my main point. Where is the weakness in that point?
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't. Which points of mine are weak? Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works. This is my main point. Where is the weakness in that point? You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lmfao, your view points are weak. That is why you reach for weird things to try and say that is why you need trackers when it isn't. Which points of mine are weak? Trackers should be in the game because it is the only way players can check the work of developers, and it should not simply be left up to developers to check themselves, because that never works. This is my main point. Where is the weakness in that point? You don't need tools to check the work of developers that is not a point for trackers to be in the game. You are a player not a developers. If you don't trust the devs and think you need special tools to watch over them don't play the game. I trust developers to want to make their game as good as it can be. However, developers are people. People can make mistakes. As I have said, using trackers, I have identified and confirmed a number of bugs in a number of games that developers have missed - and I am just one player. One of those bugs in particular affected almost literally every aspect if that game. This isnt a reach, this is a real world, recurring thing that every game and every player of every game benefits from. I dont think you are I any position to tell me what the point of trackers is or is not. That is like telling someone that the point of a screwdriver is to build shelves, you cant use it to build a bench. Obviously, the purpose of a screwdriver is to drive screws. That can be shelves, that can be a bench. It is up to the user to decide what they want to do. Likewise, a trackers purpose is to collect and display data. If a player wishes to use that to better their build, or to work out an encounter, or to investigate a games combat system, that is obviously up to the individual user. I cant see how anyone could believe anything other than the above.
Aerlana wrote: » Do you trust any people just on what they say ? Not me, i am not a child anymore, I saw lot of devs doing mistakes, for a simple reason : they are human. I saw games were mistakes needed players to gather datas (lot of datas sometime) to prove there was a mistake, and get it fixed by devs. because bugs are not only doing only 33% crit when your character sheet says 66%... It can be far more insidious to have it. MMORPGs are far from avoid it. And it is not a problem, i have nothing against developers doing mistake, even big mistake... I have a problem with all those mistake... I would trust nobody to do a perfect work, free of failure, mistake, bug. Including excellent devs like those in fromsoftware or Team Cherry. Because they are nothing more than human. And as customer, and sometime fan, i have to help them to correct bugs, and other mistakes. How ? finding them, and not only finding them, trying to repeat, understand them, to show to devs as much information as possible to allow them to find it fast. And it can even include doing retro-engineering... Which was a thing on any online game then and now. Mag7spy wrote: » No one wants dps meters lmao, we are going to get to 200 pages and people saying they don't want it and you are going to forget all their view points and discredt them like the other people in last 100 pages. The loop continues you don't care what people want, just what you want. One of your argument is about opposing tracker versus social interaction. A topic is a social interaction, so i think you consider fine to have people express their thought, get an answer from nooani, and maybe have them speak, debate, share thought about it right ? Those are real social interaction. your post seems like you think this topic should stop now so i am surprised. Now, i have a question : define "nobody wants combat tracker" Because, some want tracker (there are post of people with low post saying they are totally fine with it, without even reading about the "limited to a guild perk" idea). You claim "nobody" so first, define a more clear way what is "nobody" ... For me nobody = 0 this is the problem with you : you do claims, try to say what you think is a truth, but this is your truth and only yours... this nobody, a simple quote and this becomes false. You are not even here to discuss or debate, just doing your claims. So here is my real question : what do you really hope ?
Jelen619 wrote: » Players do and want different things in games and allowing as many of those playstyles as possible is crucial imo. If you have the choice of using the meters or not that's a good thing. There will be always people who minmax to the extreme and refuse to play with players who don't, but that's a social aspect- everyone has the right to choose if they want to play with someone or not, you cannot make someone play with you against their will. Instead you yourself find people who will be happy to play with you. I think meters are very usefull, not only for seeing good and bad dps, but also to perfecting your build, and rotation. Without a meter it's really difficult to see if what im doing is good or bad. And I believe that if those meters aren't build into the game third party addons will be a thing -ff is a good example of that.
Mag7spy wrote: » Also i don't trust our ass so there is that as well
