DPS Meter Megathread

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is a dumb take.

You’re wrong. You’re just too closed minded to see it.

Biccus wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is a dumb take.

You’re wrong. You’re just too closed minded to see it.

If you think family summons is the same as LFG you would be in the same boat. Are you aware what family summon is?

It’s the concept of continuing on without a delay which is comparable to LFG.
If you can summon a family member to you, you’re more likely to kick someone who isn’t doing well vs having to stall the group waiting for a replacement.
Unless I’m mistaken on a part of that, of course.

Biccus wrote: »

It’s the concept of continuing on without a delay which is comparable to LFG.
If you can summon a family member to you, you’re more likely to kick someone who isn’t doing well vs having to stall the group waiting for a replacement.
Unless I’m mistaken on a part of that, of course.

Tell me how family summons acts the same as LFG.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tell me how family summons acts the same as LFG.

Instant and available replacement of a group member, via a summon.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Biccus wrote: »

It’s the concept of continuing on without a delay which is comparable to LFG.
If you can summon a family member to you, you’re more likely to kick someone who isn’t doing well vs having to stall the group waiting for a replacement.
Unless I’m mistaken on a part of that, of course.

Tell me how family summons acts the same as LFG.

While the above post from Biccus is absolutely correct, I never actually equated the family summons to LFG in WoW.

All I said the summons will see more people booted from groups than a combat tracker.

Imagine I am online with 6 other friends. Our 7th friend will be online in an hour. Wr can wait for him, sure - or we could get started on the content we want to run, picking up a random to fill his spot.

Then, the second he logs in and is ready, we boot the random (perhaps kill him too) and summon our friend.

That absolutely is a situation that will happen all the time if a family summons is in the game.

In fact, it is basically the reason to add a family summons - you can start content while waiting for your friend to log on, and then pull them directly to you.

L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.

Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.

Fantastic tool to invite an individual to group when a party position became vacant to the depths of a dungeon avoiding all the party exiting to pick up that player, and fighting your way in again to your spot. No down time.
Great for morale.

Excellent for planting an alt summoner in remote areas to summons a group of players to traverse the map quickly for pve, pvp.

Dygz

Aerlana wrote: »

But here you don't speak about rules, we don't know if it will be rules or not.
Yoshida, Steven or anyone saying "don't use it please" doesn't creates a rule. Rules are on ToS.

If i use tracker while no rules forbid it, i break no rules.

It's a rule.
ToS gives you the bannable offenses.

Dygz wrote: »

ToS gives you the bannable offenses.

A singular document, in this case a Terms of Service, cannot outline an infinite range of possible infringements and/or action semantics.

The shortest and simplest manner to workaround that issue is the default of providing the capacity within the ToS to ban without reason.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

While the above post from Biccus is absolutely correct, I never actually equated the family summons to LFG in WoW.

All I said the summons will see more people booted from groups than a combat tracker.

Imagine I am online with 6 other friends. Our 7th friend will be online in an hour. Wr can wait for him, sure - or we could get started on the content we want to run, picking up a random to fill his spot.

Then, the second he logs in and is ready, we boot the random (perhaps kill him too) and summon our friend.

That absolutely is a situation that will happen all the time if a family summons is in the game.

In fact, it is basically the reason to add a family summons - you can start content while waiting for your friend to log on, and then pull them directly to you.

I mean, this whole situation is solved by the simplest and smallest amount of conversation/sociability. You just tell the random dude "we can only pick you up for an hour, u good with that?" That's it.

But if you don't tell that rando that he'll be replaced in an hour, imo, you a dick. Neither lfg nor the family summon has any influence on that.

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.

Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.

EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.

However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.

As such, it will happen in Ashes.

Hell, I would even consider running a second account maxed out on only of summoners and plant them all across the far ends of the map, if sommoning groups became a thing!

What a fantastic way to play the market, pvp and xp!

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.

Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.

EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.

However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.

As such, it will happen in Ashes.

That`s the kind of behavior that gets players on KoS lists!

Biccus wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tell me how family summons acts the same as LFG.

Instant and available replacement of a group member, via a summon.

How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.

Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?

Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?

I expect Noaani to go with a disingenuous point of view, he is trying to manipulating the post about trackers, he has already tried suggesting to people it is fine to use. I expect better from other people that aren't as rotten as him though.

I will not allow a system in place that circumvents the resource or region mechanics. Nor will an implementation be allowed that could abuse my “anti-Zerg” desires. The testing for this feature will be present in A2 and I will always err on the side of caution when examining the data we collect around this mechanic.[5] – Steven Sharif

There's a reason for those types of systems to exist but at the same time Ashes of Creation is very dependent on movement across the world; and limiting that movement because we've experienced problems with that as players in the past games that are highly teleporty; and so it's something we're going to test. We have a few ideas we're probably going to prototype those out as part of Alpha 2- focus group them a little bit and see how it changes the state of player behavior.[1] – Steven Sharif

Strevi

I see on wiki that family summon is an uncertain feature, exactly because players want to abuse that

We can still maintain the game philosophy in my opinion of mitigating that large group traversal capability as long as we contain the fast travel method to a family type system...
The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event ...
There's a reason for those types of systems to exist but at the same time Ashes of Creation is very dependent on movement across the world; and limiting that movement because we've experienced problems with that as players in the past games that are highly teleporty; and so it's something we're going to test.

Noaani wrote: »

More to the point, what do they do when the plug ins required for combat trackers to work in Ashes has millions of downloads?

If the plugins do not modify the game executable and rely only on combat logs, they will probably not care.
The wiki said the purpose of combat logs is to be filtered by players.
If that will seem to impact the game philosophy then maybe those combat logs will be adjusted somehow too, just like the family summon will be.

In general these can be nice features until players abuse them.
It is the player's fault and they sabotage themselves.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Only someone manipulating the conversation will change the words "Not allowed" Into "please don't use it" Keep being toxic

I don't see the toxic word but based on that statement it is not an uncertain thing like the family summon is.

Aerlana wrote: »

Tracker is a tool to study, analyse what happened in fights. as you said, it is just taking combat log, and have a way far easier to process for the brain, instead of hundreds of line... but it is for after fight... PvP is too chaotic.(far more than any PvE chaotic design fight)
What you need to progress for PvP ? video-record of fight, to then, study it.

Raids seem will be less predictable in AoC than in other games

You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well.
And in the thread made by Liniker I learned that there will be PvP there too.
Unless players nicely agree not to interrupt each other...
it can happen that those who defeat the world bosses will also have to be able to defeat in PvP any other team in the area.
Then, the cheating aspect is less important.
When I think to cheating, I usually think to a few cases:
- me as a honest player I could have done that too, like the other guy but he done that faster with cheats
- he should not own that item because I cannot get it either, playing honestly
- he gets that vanity item as if he is good but he doesn't deserve it like I do

I am not sure how the desire to own the legendary gear works with the game philosophy Steven mentioned.
If those players focus more on getting items than being nice players, maybe the raids remain but will drop no items and no mats anymore. Then players will play them for fun or for community rewards for their node.
Maybe I will never craft anything legendary if I get no materials.
Alternatively the game will become like other games and the game philosophy is sacrificed.

I just find it funny how there is no LFG type mechanics and you need to travel to dungeons and Noaani is further suggesting family teleports will work without limits and just let you summon random people anywhere and swap family members out like you are sending a /whisper. Because he is simply trying to fit it into his bais point of view and manipulate information he doesn't know about the family summons and its design ideas and limitations that will prevent that. And then trying to offer it as fact. @NiKr this is what I mean about his discussions and his bias, it is not about seeing things as they are properly its about him changing terms to fit what he wants in anyway that will support his desire for trackers.

You can't look at me and tell me the guy is being even remotely honest. I don't trust him.

Aerlana

akabear wrote: »

L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.

Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.

Before DF was a thing in wow, the warlocks were able to teleport people already. And even if it cost a soulshard, it was not really restrictiv. Buuut, the fact it was limited to class is already a limit for those "easy kick" : if you are rogue, hunter, priest warrior... you have to wait the 5th to travel... or you run back to the stone at entry of dungeon. And this comes in addition to hearthstone to orgrimmar/stormwind, do the call public, have dude whisper you, you inspect their stuff...

I was quite inaccurate when i spoke about teleport, but i spoke about the current system that allow you to wait in housing area or anywhere you like to wait, or even doing daily quest while waiting to go inside dungeon... and comeback to questing after.

Family teleport for me is not a real problem around kicking people from party. It is really limited : the family would be really limited to how many people are in (9) you can be in only one if i don't mistake. It is usefull ONLY if you kick a guy to then invite one of the team member's family... This is the kind of kick i saw, even back in "good old time" on EQ1. You kick the unknown average pickup to invite your friend...

The problem with family teleport is (i think) more on other part of the game, and i am really out of this debate because i can't figure out how strong it really can be. But clearly not about "kick people" we are speaking here for me.

NiKr wrote: »

I mean, this whole situation is solved by the simplest and smallest amount of conversation/sociability. You just tell the random dude "we can only pick you up for an hour, u good with that?" That's it.

But if you don't tell that rando that he'll be replaced in an hour, imo, you a dick. Neither lfg nor the family summon has any influence on that.

We speak about abusiv kick/toxicity, so what nooani says is accurate...
The mentality players have are (in my opinion) bind to how easy it can be this way. If replace people does cost more time/is harder => globally people will less do kick, and even a "bad" player which is currently fast kicked would be able to stay in team... What nooani gave as example is a good case of "dick" as you say... But it is always fine to keep this kind of behaviour in mind... The good thing is, even with family teleport, it will be rare i think. (due to global mentality around replacement of team member)

Strevi wrote: »

Raids seem will be less predictable in AoC than in other games

WoW/FFXIV have scripted PvE fight.
And sure, in chaotic fight, the DPS you will do from one try to another may vary a lot just due to this RNG. simply... look at Lost Ark which manage to do really good fight with a more chaotic system (and few script part)

But, even chaotic PvE fight are far far less "chaotic" or "random" than PvP fight.
A good player, for PvP even if he has his style, favourite way to do, will adapt to what you do, and because you adapt to what he does, 2 duel can be 2 totally different fight. And on PvP your DPS is not the real subject, but how you are efficient to defend and offend at same time, or vary from one to other at good timing. (cc being part of offense or defense)

Chaotic PvE : the ennemy will have lot of skill he will use randomly, one after other. but while you get comfortable you manage to read better the model movement to avoid it the most efficiently possible, and then you begin to know the timeframe to smash bosses depending of what he uses => tracker help you to find out what are the most efficient skill for a set timeframe.

Also for the study post fight : Do you count how many time and how hard you were touch all along a 10 minutes fight ? Me not, i focus on the fight itself, and don't know if i am good or bad, i need then to watch back the whole fight to see my strongest mistakes (so, where i have the more area to improve, so where i have to focus the most) Because the boss will have all time those 20 skills used randomly, if i see 3 are really high in damage received/number of hit received, i know that this is where i lack efficiency the most, and have to focus the most, probably when the patern begins i should lower/stop DPS to have an absolute focus on the animation, while on other i am decent, i can already go on step "max out my damages"

Tracker for fight analysis also allows me to transform feelings (i feel my dot management is poor) into reality (in fact, my dot was up near all time, is fine ! ) which is important... If you want to get close to 100% efficiency, you can't rely on your feelings if you are doing well or not.

@Mag7spy

How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.
Kicking a member out of the group and summoning a family member to your location..?

Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?
I haven’t seen how it will be implemented, neither have you. I am assuming that the family has been set up already. Which from what I’ve read so far is yes, you can just summon a family member to your location.

Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?
The main argument against family summon has always been Zerg tactic.

But you’ve exploded into being toxic which was honestly, expected. I didn’t even bring up the family summon, I’m just giving similarities.
All I was saying was the availability of a replacement is a larger factor than dps number when players get removed from groups.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr this is what I mean about his discussions and his bias, it is not about seeing things as they are properly its about him changing terms to fit what he wants in anyway that will support his desire for trackers.

You can't look at me and tell me the guy is being even remotely honest. I don't trust him.

Eh, everyone here is biased to all hell. You just disagree with Noaani's bias too much to take him seriously.

His push for tracker is the same as my push for low-time corruption will be. Except he's pushing it now because there's still time before Intrepid say the final word on their pve approach.