While the above post from Biccus is absolutely correct, I never actually equated the family summons to LFG in WoW.
All I said the summons will see more people booted from groups than a combat tracker.
Imagine I am online with 6 other friends. Our 7th friend will be online in an hour. Wr can wait for him, sure - or we could get started on the content we want to run, picking up a random to fill his spot.
Then, the second he logs in and is ready, we boot the random (perhaps kill him too) and summon our friend.
That absolutely is a situation that will happen all the time if a family summons is in the game.
In fact, it is basically the reason to add a family summons - you can start content while waiting for your friend to log on, and then pull them directly to you.
I mean, this whole situation is solved by the simplest and smallest amount of conversation/sociability. You just tell the random dude "we can only pick you up for an hour, u good with that?" That's it.
But if you don't tell that rando that he'll be replaced in an hour, imo, you a dick. Neither lfg nor the family summon has any influence on that.
L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.
Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.
EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.
However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.
As such, it will happen in Ashes.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hell, I would even consider running a second account maxed out on only of summoners and plant them all across the far ends of the map, if sommoning groups became a thing!
What a fantastic way to play the market, pvp and xp!
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Instant and available replacement of a group member, via a summon.
How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.
Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?
Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?
I expect Noaani to go with a disingenuous point of view, he is trying to manipulating the post about trackers, he has already tried suggesting to people it is fine to use. I expect better from other people that aren't as rotten as him though.
I will not allow a system in place that circumvents the resource or region mechanics. Nor will an implementation be allowed that could abuse my “anti-Zerg” desires. The testing for this feature will be present in A2 and I will always err on the side of caution when examining the data we collect around this mechanic.[5] – Steven Sharif
There's a reason for those types of systems to exist but at the same time Ashes of Creation is very dependent on movement across the world; and limiting that movement because we've experienced problems with that as players in the past games that are highly teleporty; and so it's something we're going to test. We have a few ideas we're probably going to prototype those out as part of Alpha 2- focus group them a little bit and see how it changes the state of player behavior.[1] – Steven Sharif
I see on wiki that family summon is an uncertain feature, exactly because players want to abuse that
We can still maintain the game philosophy in my opinion of mitigating that large group traversal capability as long as we contain the fast travel method to a family type system...
The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event ...
There's a reason for those types of systems to exist but at the same time Ashes of Creation is very dependent on movement across the world; and limiting that movement because we've experienced problems with that as players in the past games that are highly teleporty; and so it's something we're going to test.
More to the point, what do they do when the plug ins required for combat trackers to work in Ashes has millions of downloads?
If the plugins do not modify the game executable and rely only on combat logs, they will probably not care.
The wiki said the purpose of combat logs is to be filtered by players.
If that will seem to impact the game philosophy then maybe those combat logs will be adjusted somehow too, just like the family summon will be.
In general these can be nice features until players abuse them.
It is the player's fault and they sabotage themselves.
Tracker is a tool to study, analyse what happened in fights. as you said, it is just taking combat log, and have a way far easier to process for the brain, instead of hundreds of line... but it is for after fight... PvP is too chaotic.(far more than any PvE chaotic design fight)
What you need to progress for PvP ? video-record of fight, to then, study it.
Raids seem will be less predictable in AoC than in other games
You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well.
And in the thread made by Liniker I learned that there will be PvP there too.
Unless players nicely agree not to interrupt each other...
it can happen that those who defeat the world bosses will also have to be able to defeat in PvP any other team in the area.
Then, the cheating aspect is less important.
When I think to cheating, I usually think to a few cases:
- me as a honest player I could have done that too, like the other guy but he done that faster with cheats
- he should not own that item because I cannot get it either, playing honestly
- he gets that vanity item as if he is good but he doesn't deserve it like I do
I am not sure how the desire to own the legendary gear works with the game philosophy Steven mentioned.
If those players focus more on getting items than being nice players, maybe the raids remain but will drop no items and no mats anymore. Then players will play them for fun or for community rewards for their node.
Maybe I will never craft anything legendary if I get no materials.
Alternatively the game will become like other games and the game philosophy is sacrificed.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I just find it funny how there is no LFG type mechanics and you need to travel to dungeons and Noaani is further suggesting family teleports will work without limits and just let you summon random people anywhere and swap family members out like you are sending a /whisper. Because he is simply trying to fit it into his bais point of view and manipulate information he doesn't know about the family summons and its design ideas and limitations that will prevent that. And then trying to offer it as fact. @NiKr this is what I mean about his discussions and his bias, it is not about seeing things as they are properly its about him changing terms to fit what he wants in anyway that will support his desire for trackers.
You can't look at me and tell me the guy is being even remotely honest. I don't trust him.
L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.
Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.
Before DF was a thing in wow, the warlocks were able to teleport people already. And even if it cost a soulshard, it was not really restrictiv. Buuut, the fact it was limited to class is already a limit for those "easy kick" : if you are rogue, hunter, priest warrior... you have to wait the 5th to travel... or you run back to the stone at entry of dungeon. And this comes in addition to hearthstone to orgrimmar/stormwind, do the call public, have dude whisper you, you inspect their stuff...
I was quite inaccurate when i spoke about teleport, but i spoke about the current system that allow you to wait in housing area or anywhere you like to wait, or even doing daily quest while waiting to go inside dungeon... and comeback to questing after.
Family teleport for me is not a real problem around kicking people from party. It is really limited : the family would be really limited to how many people are in (9) you can be in only one if i don't mistake. It is usefull ONLY if you kick a guy to then invite one of the team member's family... This is the kind of kick i saw, even back in "good old time" on EQ1. You kick the unknown average pickup to invite your friend...
The problem with family teleport is (i think) more on other part of the game, and i am really out of this debate because i can't figure out how strong it really can be. But clearly not about "kick people" we are speaking here for me.
I mean, this whole situation is solved by the simplest and smallest amount of conversation/sociability. You just tell the random dude "we can only pick you up for an hour, u good with that?" That's it.
But if you don't tell that rando that he'll be replaced in an hour, imo, you a dick. Neither lfg nor the family summon has any influence on that.
We speak about abusiv kick/toxicity, so what nooani says is accurate...
The mentality players have are (in my opinion) bind to how easy it can be this way. If replace people does cost more time/is harder => globally people will less do kick, and even a "bad" player which is currently fast kicked would be able to stay in team... What nooani gave as example is a good case of "dick" as you say... But it is always fine to keep this kind of behaviour in mind... The good thing is, even with family teleport, it will be rare i think. (due to global mentality around replacement of team member)
Raids seem will be less predictable in AoC than in other games
WoW/FFXIV have scripted PvE fight.
And sure, in chaotic fight, the DPS you will do from one try to another may vary a lot just due to this RNG. simply... look at Lost Ark which manage to do really good fight with a more chaotic system (and few script part)
But, even chaotic PvE fight are far far less "chaotic" or "random" than PvP fight.
A good player, for PvP even if he has his style, favourite way to do, will adapt to what you do, and because you adapt to what he does, 2 duel can be 2 totally different fight. And on PvP your DPS is not the real subject, but how you are efficient to defend and offend at same time, or vary from one to other at good timing. (cc being part of offense or defense)
Chaotic PvE : the ennemy will have lot of skill he will use randomly, one after other. but while you get comfortable you manage to read better the model movement to avoid it the most efficiently possible, and then you begin to know the timeframe to smash bosses depending of what he uses => tracker help you to find out what are the most efficient skill for a set timeframe.
Also for the study post fight : Do you count how many time and how hard you were touch all along a 10 minutes fight ? Me not, i focus on the fight itself, and don't know if i am good or bad, i need then to watch back the whole fight to see my strongest mistakes (so, where i have the more area to improve, so where i have to focus the most) Because the boss will have all time those 20 skills used randomly, if i see 3 are really high in damage received/number of hit received, i know that this is where i lack efficiency the most, and have to focus the most, probably when the patern begins i should lower/stop DPS to have an absolute focus on the animation, while on other i am decent, i can already go on step "max out my damages"
Tracker for fight analysis also allows me to transform feelings (i feel my dot management is poor) into reality (in fact, my dot was up near all time, is fine ! ) which is important... If you want to get close to 100% efficiency, you can't rely on your feelings if you are doing well or not.
How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.
Kicking a member out of the group and summoning a family member to your location..?
Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?
I haven’t seen how it will be implemented, neither have you. I am assuming that the family has been set up already. Which from what I’ve read so far is yes, you can just summon a family member to your location.
Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?
The main argument against family summon has always been Zerg tactic.
But you’ve exploded into being toxic which was honestly, expected. I didn’t even bring up the family summon, I’m just giving similarities.
All I was saying was the availability of a replacement is a larger factor than dps number when players get removed from groups.
NiKr this is what I mean about his discussions and his bias, it is not about seeing things as they are properly its about him changing terms to fit what he wants in anyway that will support his desire for trackers.
You can't look at me and tell me the guy is being even remotely honest. I don't trust him.
Eh, everyone here is biased to all hell. You just disagree with Noaani's bias too much to take him seriously.
His push for tracker is the same as my push for low-time corruption will be. Except he's pushing it now because there's still time before Intrepid say the final word on their pve approach.
How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.
Kicking a member out of the group and summoning a family member to your location..?
Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?
I haven’t seen how it will be implemented, neither have you. I am assuming that the family has been set up already. Which from what I’ve read so far is yes, you can just summon a family member to your location.
Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?
The main argument against family summon has always been Zerg tactic.
But you’ve exploded into being toxic which was honestly, expected. I didn’t even bring up the family summon, I’m just giving similarities.
All I was saying was the availability of a replacement is a larger factor than dps number when players get removed from groups.
It is toxic to call you out on it and use a quote from the devs? You think that is exploding wow. Family summons is what we are talking about in the suggestion that it can equal LFG which dose not make sense based on the design direction and the wording of anit zerg.
You say availability of replacement without taking into any of the design goals for the system they talked about. You are assuming anyone can join at anytime and you can just teleport whoever when you want. That is a pretty big assumption about how it is going to work and that sounds like a way to zerg places instantly and freely teleport around the world.
But hey you won't give me a proper answer im guessing, easier to assume what you want even if it doesn't line up with the way they have kind of talked about it and we don't know exactly how its going to work. Usual I expect from people wanting trackers when they were told they would "not be allowed"
His push for tracker is the same as my push for low-time corruption will be. Except he's pushing it now because there's still time before Intrepid say the final word on their pve approach.
You mean the PvE approach related to the raids which are said to be doable by 1% players?
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
You mean the PvE approach related to the raids which are said to be doable by 1% players?
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
All pvp players are already attracted by default. Now Intrepid gotta attract the pvers.
You mean the PvE approach related to the raids which are said to be doable by 1% players?
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
All pvp players are already attracted by default. Now Intrepid gotta attract the pvers.
They'll be scribes.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
All pvp players are already attracted by default. Now Intrepid gotta attract the pvers.
Very true.. the core / frequent pve content has not really been shown in a long time.
Really would like to see how general mobs, gathering and other pve content has progressed and what might look like Don`t need to know so much more about the infrequent content such as events, raids/bosses etc for now.
It is toxic to call you out on it and use a quote from the devs? You think that is exploding wow. Family summons is what we are talking about in the suggestion that it can equal LFG which dose not make sense based on the design direction and the wording of anit zerg.
You say availability of replacement without taking into any of the design goals for the system they talked about. You are assuming anyone can join at anytime and you can just teleport whoever when you want. That is a pretty big assumption about how it is going to work and that sounds like a way to zerg places instantly and freely teleport around the world.
But hey you won't give me a proper answer im guessing, easier to assume what you want even if it doesn't line up with the way they have kind of talked about it and we don't know exactly how its going to work. Usual I expect from people wanting trackers when they were told they would "not be allowed"
I didn’t say family summon would equal LFG, I just laid out a similarity between the two. Obviously only being able to summon a member of your family is a much lower pool of replacements,
I know the design goals for family summon, the problem is you can’t have it without considering the abuse it can receive. It’s not that big of an assumption to assume you can summon a family member to your location while in a dungeon, open world ones anyway.
Could it be prevented by adding even more restrictions on to the family summon? Of course it could! But so far we haven’t seen those restrictions. So for IS to “not allow” the abuse of summons, they must restrict them more.
A proper answer to what? As far as I’m aware I’ve answered your questions to the best of my ability.
You mean the PvE approach related to the raids which are said to be doable by 1% players?
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
I can only really share my personal experience here as a PvE focused player for my time in WoW. I was never the top 1%, but I always looked at logs etc to see where I could improve. Things like missed rotations and buff uptime. For me, having the data to show me where I needed to improve for next time was a real help.
As NiKr said, the pvp players are already likely to be attracted. you have to do something to attract pve players.
You mean the PvE approach related to the raids which are said to be doable by 1% players?
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
Single digit, so up to 10% (which is already more)
But doesnt say if 10% of players, or 10% of player with a decent PvE activity (i consider they speak about those last, because else... 10% of players means not so hard fight on a game which could interest people mostly for PvP)
Due to the announced design, players "only PvE" won't go top end PvE in my opinion :
The higher you aim, the more your PvE life could be impacted by PvP. midtier content (which could be heroic/early mythic raids in wow) doesnt need to spam consumable to be done. But for higher difficulty yes.
OVerall higher difficulty will need more consumable/craft, so freehold, so defend node to defend freehold so... PvP activity. While i think the hardest boss, to have real interesting PvE fight should be in spot that will limit risk of PvP during fight, there is still the travel back to safety of a town... so have to defend PvP side, and higher the boss is, better reward are, the more strong PvP team you will have on your ass.
But, on wow, most top end guilds have activ member on PvP, not being top PvP but in some really good rate. PvP remains a really good way to have some training for "chaotic design" boss, due to PvP being even more chaotic.
I think so, that even if some serious PvE content, the game won't have lot of "pure PvE"... why go where you can get gank at anytime, with not only time loss for dying if there are already 2 game with competitiv and qualitativ PvE and maybe could consider 3rd if Lost Ark continue the way opened with Abrelshud ? Each of them allowing you to just ignore PvP is a thing.
L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.
Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.
EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.
However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.
As such, it will happen in Ashes.
That`s the kind of behavior that gets players on KoS lists!
Perhaps.
However, if I am a player that is generally playing with that group of friends of mine, and you are a player that is generally looking for pick up groups, I am not likely going to be concerned if I am on their KoS list.
I just find it funny how there is no LFG type mechanics and you need to travel to dungeons and Noaani is further suggesting family teleports will work without limits
You mean the PvE approach related to the raids which are said to be doable by 1% players?
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
All pvp players are already attracted by default. Now Intrepid gotta attract the pvers.
Welcome to the arguments I have been making for the last 5 years.
The PvP system will attract PvP players. It wont keep them though - only high population will do that (in conjunction with that PvP system).
Now Intrepid need to attract the PvE crowd in order to maintain that high population.
...
While i think the hardest boss, to have real interesting PvE fight should be in spot that will limit risk of PvP during fight, there is still the travel back to safety of a town... so have to defend PvP side, and higher the boss is, better reward are, the more strong PvP team you will have on your ass.
No mafia family teleport after PvE.
Those poor bandits have to bring the mats to me @NiKr I am not biased. Those mats are shiny.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.
Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.
EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.
However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.
As such, it will happen in Ashes.
That`s the kind of behavior that gets players on KoS lists!
Perhaps.
However, if I am a player that is generally playing with that group of friends of mine, and you are a player that is generally looking for pick up groups, I am not likely going to be concerned if I am on their KoS list.
Small-scale thinking, that is how guild wars start! Consensual or not. If you are a pvp`er great.. if not then not so great for the individual that does it and the guild that has to bear the consequence of the individual's actions.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The game gets no faction.
Factions will be player's fact. The PvE is part of the world with world bosses and dungeons, bind to lore, nodes, etc.
Your idea creates a faction, a danger for players to gather against. It is not a totally bad idea, but contrary to the base concept of the open world of AoC and what was sold to players.
People here paid, or simply came on forum for what the base concept is. Sure not all have same mindset, and for some smaller part, there are debate. Global chat, tracker, vocal chat, or the most debate point : corruption.
But none here wants change on the base design, the foundation of the game...
If you come, and want to change foundation to fit more your own taste, sure everyone will say your ideas are stupids. It would be like getting on mortal 2 forums to ask less punishing PvP, more PvE, a corruption system or what else. Getting on WoW and try to get the game to go full open world PvP (instead of current opt in situation) or getting on PoE forum and complain about complexity of passiv skill tree, and gem skill system.
L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.
Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.
EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.
However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.
As such, it will happen in Ashes.
That`s the kind of behavior that gets players on KoS lists!
Perhaps.
However, if I am a player that is generally playing with that group of friends of mine, and you are a player that is generally looking for pick up groups, I am not likely going to be concerned if I am on their KoS list.
Small-scale thinking, that is how guild wars start! Consensual or not. If you are a pvp`er great.. if not then not so great for the individual that does it and the guild that has to bear the consequence of the individual's actions.
Nah, there are two main points as to why this wouldn't be the case.
The first is - the guild doesnt care about the player in question. We know this because the player in question joined a pick up group. They aren't going to go to war over a slight against a guild member they cant even be bothered grouping up with.
Second, after a month or two (or three, in all likelihood), the politics of the server will be basically set. A small scale event like this will not be enough to register - let alone shake anything up.
A PERSONAL DPS meter is fine so you can better understand your own build and play style. If it's OPTIONAL in a party, then it will become defacto REQUIRED to enable to join.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 had two summoning classes.. one that could summon individuals and the other the group, with cooldowns.
Never in 6 years saw missused as suggested above.
EQ2 had classes that can summon as well, never saw it there either.
However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.
As such, it will happen in Ashes.
That`s the kind of behavior that gets players on KoS lists!
Perhaps.
However, if I am a player that is generally playing with that group of friends of mine, and you are a player that is generally looking for pick up groups, I am not likely going to be concerned if I am on their KoS list.
Small-scale thinking, that is how guild wars start! Consensual or not. If you are a pvp`er great.. if not then not so great for the individual that does it and the guild that has to bear the consequence of the individual's actions.
Nah, there are two main points as to why this wouldn't be the case.
The first is - the guild doesnt care about the player in question. We know this because the player in question joined a pick up group. They aren't going to go to war over a slight against a guild member they cant even be bothered grouping up with.
Second, after a month or two (or three, in all likelihood), the politics of the server will be basically set. A small scale event like this will not be enough to register - let alone shake anything up.
Like I have said before, we come from different experience backgrounds.. that kind of action was enough to start a war between two alliances in L2.. and sometimes to hit home harder, it was not a declared war where there were limited death penalties, it was a pk war. Because we looked after our members
Like I have said before, we come from different experience backgrounds..
For sure.
Thing is, your experience in this regard is from a time gone by. Mine is from a time not so long ago.
As I've said before, people have changed - even most of the people that played back then would approach an MMO differently these days. Even more to the point, probably a third of the people that will play Ashes weren't even born when L2 was released - so they grew up on approaching games in different ways to what happened in L2.
While I'm not wanting to make predictions on how people will approach things in Ashes, I will gladly say that - generally speaking - it wont be the same as it was in L2.
Comments
But if you don't tell that rando that he'll be replaced in an hour, imo, you a dick. Neither lfg nor the family summon has any influence on that.
However, the current generation of MMO players is far closer to that of the average WoW player than the average L2 of EQ2 player.
As such, it will happen in Ashes.
What a fantastic way to play the market, pvp and xp!
How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.
Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?
Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?
I expect Noaani to go with a disingenuous point of view, he is trying to manipulating the post about trackers, he has already tried suggesting to people it is fine to use. I expect better from other people that aren't as rotten as him though.
We can still maintain the game philosophy in my opinion of mitigating that large group traversal capability as long as we contain the fast travel method to a family type system...
The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event ...
There's a reason for those types of systems to exist but at the same time Ashes of Creation is very dependent on movement across the world; and limiting that movement because we've experienced problems with that as players in the past games that are highly teleporty; and so it's something we're going to test.
If the plugins do not modify the game executable and rely only on combat logs, they will probably not care.
The wiki said the purpose of combat logs is to be filtered by players.
If that will seem to impact the game philosophy then maybe those combat logs will be adjusted somehow too, just like the family summon will be.
In general these can be nice features until players abuse them.
It is the player's fault and they sabotage themselves.
I don't see the toxic word but based on that statement it is not an uncertain thing like the family summon is.
Raids seem will be less predictable in AoC than in other games
You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well.
And in the thread made by Liniker I learned that there will be PvP there too.
Unless players nicely agree not to interrupt each other...
it can happen that those who defeat the world bosses will also have to be able to defeat in PvP any other team in the area.
Then, the cheating aspect is less important.
When I think to cheating, I usually think to a few cases:
- me as a honest player I could have done that too, like the other guy but he done that faster with cheats
- he should not own that item because I cannot get it either, playing honestly
- he gets that vanity item as if he is good but he doesn't deserve it like I do
I am not sure how the desire to own the legendary gear works with the game philosophy Steven mentioned.
If those players focus more on getting items than being nice players, maybe the raids remain but will drop no items and no mats anymore. Then players will play them for fun or for community rewards for their node.
Maybe I will never craft anything legendary if I get no materials.
Alternatively the game will become like other games and the game philosophy is sacrificed.
You can't look at me and tell me the guy is being even remotely honest. I don't trust him.
Before DF was a thing in wow, the warlocks were able to teleport people already. And even if it cost a soulshard, it was not really restrictiv. Buuut, the fact it was limited to class is already a limit for those "easy kick" : if you are rogue, hunter, priest warrior... you have to wait the 5th to travel... or you run back to the stone at entry of dungeon. And this comes in addition to hearthstone to orgrimmar/stormwind, do the call public, have dude whisper you, you inspect their stuff...
I was quite inaccurate when i spoke about teleport, but i spoke about the current system that allow you to wait in housing area or anywhere you like to wait, or even doing daily quest while waiting to go inside dungeon... and comeback to questing after.
Family teleport for me is not a real problem around kicking people from party. It is really limited : the family would be really limited to how many people are in (9) you can be in only one if i don't mistake. It is usefull ONLY if you kick a guy to then invite one of the team member's family... This is the kind of kick i saw, even back in "good old time" on EQ1. You kick the unknown average pickup to invite your friend...
The problem with family teleport is (i think) more on other part of the game, and i am really out of this debate because i can't figure out how strong it really can be. But clearly not about "kick people" we are speaking here for me.
We speak about abusiv kick/toxicity, so what nooani says is accurate...
The mentality players have are (in my opinion) bind to how easy it can be this way. If replace people does cost more time/is harder => globally people will less do kick, and even a "bad" player which is currently fast kicked would be able to stay in team... What nooani gave as example is a good case of "dick" as you say... But it is always fine to keep this kind of behaviour in mind... The good thing is, even with family teleport, it will be rare i think. (due to global mentality around replacement of team member)
WoW/FFXIV have scripted PvE fight.
And sure, in chaotic fight, the DPS you will do from one try to another may vary a lot just due to this RNG. simply... look at Lost Ark which manage to do really good fight with a more chaotic system (and few script part)
But, even chaotic PvE fight are far far less "chaotic" or "random" than PvP fight.
A good player, for PvP even if he has his style, favourite way to do, will adapt to what you do, and because you adapt to what he does, 2 duel can be 2 totally different fight. And on PvP your DPS is not the real subject, but how you are efficient to defend and offend at same time, or vary from one to other at good timing. (cc being part of offense or defense)
Chaotic PvE : the ennemy will have lot of skill he will use randomly, one after other. but while you get comfortable you manage to read better the model movement to avoid it the most efficiently possible, and then you begin to know the timeframe to smash bosses depending of what he uses => tracker help you to find out what are the most efficient skill for a set timeframe.
Also for the study post fight : Do you count how many time and how hard you were touch all along a 10 minutes fight ? Me not, i focus on the fight itself, and don't know if i am good or bad, i need then to watch back the whole fight to see my strongest mistakes (so, where i have the more area to improve, so where i have to focus the most) Because the boss will have all time those 20 skills used randomly, if i see 3 are really high in damage received/number of hit received, i know that this is where i lack efficiency the most, and have to focus the most, probably when the patern begins i should lower/stop DPS to have an absolute focus on the animation, while on other i am decent, i can already go on step "max out my damages"
Tracker for fight analysis also allows me to transform feelings (i feel my dot management is poor) into reality (in fact, my dot was up near all time, is fine ! ) which is important... If you want to get close to 100% efficiency, you can't rely on your feelings if you are doing well or not.
How are you instantly replacing random people with the family teleport system.
Kicking a member out of the group and summoning a family member to your location..?
Are you telling me they plan on allowing you to randomly pick anyone from anywhere to be apart of your family teleport system and able to use it at anytime without even walking to the person to link it and without restriction?
I haven’t seen how it will be implemented, neither have you. I am assuming that the family has been set up already. Which from what I’ve read so far is yes, you can just summon a family member to your location.
Are you honestly suggesting it will be like that which could easily start to be used as a zerg tactic? Or are you simply saying that because benefits your idea to push family teleports will = LFG and bypass intreips design of going against that kind of thing?
The main argument against family summon has always been Zerg tactic.
But you’ve exploded into being toxic which was honestly, expected. I didn’t even bring up the family summon, I’m just giving similarities.
All I was saying was the availability of a replacement is a larger factor than dps number when players get removed from groups.
His push for tracker is the same as my push for low-time corruption will be. Except he's pushing it now because there's still time before Intrepid say the final word on their pve approach.
It is toxic to call you out on it and use a quote from the devs? You think that is exploding wow. Family summons is what we are talking about in the suggestion that it can equal LFG which dose not make sense based on the design direction and the wording of anit zerg.
You say availability of replacement without taking into any of the design goals for the system they talked about. You are assuming anyone can join at anytime and you can just teleport whoever when you want. That is a pretty big assumption about how it is going to work and that sounds like a way to zerg places instantly and freely teleport around the world.
But hey you won't give me a proper answer im guessing, easier to assume what you want even if it doesn't line up with the way they have kind of talked about it and we don't know exactly how its going to work. Usual I expect from people wanting trackers when they were told they would "not be allowed"
99% of players will play on other more accessible dungeons and will have normal PvE experience.
Intrepid's decision will be based on what kind of player base they want and what those players should do every day when they log into the game.
I think it will not be a healthy balance to attract more PvE than PvP players.
They'll be scribes.
Very true.. the core / frequent pve content has not really been shown in a long time.
Really would like to see how general mobs, gathering and other pve content has progressed and what might look like Don`t need to know so much more about the infrequent content such as events, raids/bosses etc for now.
I didn’t say family summon would equal LFG, I just laid out a similarity between the two. Obviously only being able to summon a member of your family is a much lower pool of replacements,
I know the design goals for family summon, the problem is you can’t have it without considering the abuse it can receive. It’s not that big of an assumption to assume you can summon a family member to your location while in a dungeon, open world ones anyway.
Could it be prevented by adding even more restrictions on to the family summon? Of course it could! But so far we haven’t seen those restrictions. So for IS to “not allow” the abuse of summons, they must restrict them more.
A proper answer to what? As far as I’m aware I’ve answered your questions to the best of my ability.
As NiKr said, the pvp players are already likely to be attracted. you have to do something to attract pve players.
Single digit, so up to 10% (which is already more)
But doesnt say if 10% of players, or 10% of player with a decent PvE activity (i consider they speak about those last, because else... 10% of players means not so hard fight on a game which could interest people mostly for PvP)
Due to the announced design, players "only PvE" won't go top end PvE in my opinion :
The higher you aim, the more your PvE life could be impacted by PvP. midtier content (which could be heroic/early mythic raids in wow) doesnt need to spam consumable to be done. But for higher difficulty yes.
OVerall higher difficulty will need more consumable/craft, so freehold, so defend node to defend freehold so... PvP activity. While i think the hardest boss, to have real interesting PvE fight should be in spot that will limit risk of PvP during fight, there is still the travel back to safety of a town... so have to defend PvP side, and higher the boss is, better reward are, the more strong PvP team you will have on your ass.
But, on wow, most top end guilds have activ member on PvP, not being top PvP but in some really good rate. PvP remains a really good way to have some training for "chaotic design" boss, due to PvP being even more chaotic.
I think so, that even if some serious PvE content, the game won't have lot of "pure PvE"... why go where you can get gank at anytime, with not only time loss for dying if there are already 2 game with competitiv and qualitativ PvE and maybe could consider 3rd if Lost Ark continue the way opened with Abrelshud ? Each of them allowing you to just ignore PvP is a thing.
However, if I am a player that is generally playing with that group of friends of mine, and you are a player that is generally looking for pick up groups, I am not likely going to be concerned if I am on their KoS list.
I never said this.
Welcome to the arguments I have been making for the last 5 years.
The PvP system will attract PvP players. It wont keep them though - only high population will do that (in conjunction with that PvP system).
Now Intrepid need to attract the PvE crowd in order to maintain that high population.
Those poor bandits have to bring the mats to me
@NiKr I am not biased. Those mats are shiny.
Small-scale thinking, that is how guild wars start! Consensual or not. If you are a pvp`er great.. if not then not so great for the individual that does it and the guild that has to bear the consequence of the individual's actions.
re-posted in the correct thread!
Nah, there are two main points as to why this wouldn't be the case.
The first is - the guild doesnt care about the player in question. We know this because the player in question joined a pick up group. They aren't going to go to war over a slight against a guild member they cant even be bothered grouping up with.
Second, after a month or two (or three, in all likelihood), the politics of the server will be basically set. A small scale event like this will not be enough to register - let alone shake anything up.
Like I have said before, we come from different experience backgrounds.. that kind of action was enough to start a war between two alliances in L2.. and sometimes to hit home harder, it was not a declared war where there were limited death penalties, it was a pk war. Because we looked after our members
For sure.
Thing is, your experience in this regard is from a time gone by. Mine is from a time not so long ago.
As I've said before, people have changed - even most of the people that played back then would approach an MMO differently these days. Even more to the point, probably a third of the people that will play Ashes weren't even born when L2 was released - so they grew up on approaching games in different ways to what happened in L2.
While I'm not wanting to make predictions on how people will approach things in Ashes, I will gladly say that - generally speaking - it wont be the same as it was in L2.