DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

One is zerging to a singular person or persons in real life.

Can you either restate this, or define what you mean by "zerging". Because this sentence makes no sense to me.

Anyone can communicate and that is part of the game. Breaking the game shouldn't be easy.
A bunch of lazy people unwilling to improve, averse to playing the game simply because they're not good or don't like video games???, shouldn't be accommodated and rewarded.

I mean, this is an argument for forcing combat trackers on to all players (not that I know a way to make that happen), not an argument for allowing tracker use.

Players unwilling on un-wanting to improve won't ever use or consider using a tracker. On the other hand, a player wanting to be the best they can be at the game will always use a tracker, as it is the best tool for getting as good at a game as possible.

I mean, perhaps you just didn't word the argument you wanted to make here very well, or perhaps you have a totally misguided opinion of what a tracker is and can do, but your argument here isn't an argument to not have trackers in Ashes at all.

The game should not be so formulaic or repetitive though; and health/ damage/ whatever variability for individual mobs of the same 'kind' is part of that.
Accurate visages (e.g. Buffalo high health, fire causing burn, deadly looking creatures being deadly) is part of immersion and gives players the clue as to the nature of said Content.Thus undermining the use of third party tools and motivation to create them

This is untrue.

Lets assume you can look at a mob and see things such as it having more HP than the average mob of it's type, or that it deals fire damage in addition to other damage types that the mob deals.

That's great. The game will show you that. It will be on fire or what ever.

This is all direct feedback for the encounter, during that one encounter though. That information is not what you would ever use a combat tracker for though, and so it existing or not existing once again has no impact at all on whether a player would want to use a tracker or not.

Sapiverenus

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

One is zerging to a singular person or persons in real life.

Can you either restate this, or define what you mean by "zerging". Because this sentence makes no sense to me.

Zerging. Converging onto the Discord of some dude who can make tools, begging for an update to make the game easier for you. lmao.

Just turn on hacks dude you know you want to.

Anyone can communicate and that is part of the game. Breaking the game shouldn't be easy.
A bunch of lazy people unwilling to improve, averse to playing the game simply because they're not good or don't like video games???, shouldn't be accommodated and rewarded.

I mean, this is an argument for forcing combat trackers on to all players (not that I know a way to make that happen), not an argument for allowing tracker use.

Just gtfo. You're probably a botter too.

The reward for playing is improving, experience, having fun with the challenge, and clearing content once you've become good enough.

You don't get to be rewarded for removing the difficulty of the game with trackers.
And you don't get rewarded for ruining immersion and more interesting game dynamics.

Players unwilling on un-wanting to improve won't ever use or consider using a tracker. On the other hand, a player wanting to be the best they can be at the game will always use a tracker, as it is the best tool for getting as good at a game as possible.

Hacks and Metabuilds are the best way to win.

It doesn't make you better at the game or improve the experience ffs.

It is becoming obvious to me you're a botter that sells gold/items and this would cut into your income.

The game should not be so formulaic or repetitive though; and health/ damage/ whatever variability for individual mobs of the same 'kind' is part of that.
Accurate visages (e.g. Buffalo high health, fire causing burn, deadly looking creatures being deadly) is part of immersion and gives players the clue as to the nature of said Content.Thus undermining the use of third party tools and motivation to create them

This is all direct feedback for the encounter, during that one encounter though. That information is not what you would ever use a combat tracker for though, and so it existing or not existing once again has no impact at all on whether a player would want to use a tracker or not.

Thus killing your bot farm. lmao

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Zerging. Converging onto the Discord of some dude who can make tools, begging for an update to make the game easier for you. lmao.

I am confused as to how you think this is an argument against Intrepid building a tracker directly in to the game.

Perhaps you are totally unaware. You and I are not discussing combat trackers vs no combat trackers in Ashes. That ship has sailed - trackers will be available to those that want them and will be within the rules that Ashes are able to introduce.

What we are discussing is Intrepid opting to take control of trackers themself, vs leaving them in third party hands.

It is becoming obvious to me you're a botter that sells gold/items and this would cut into your income.

Ah yes - the "I have no arguments left to make so I'll just claim you are a botter" argument.

You aren't the first to claim that this is what you think, and you also aren't the first to make the claim without any kind of link as to why you think it would be the case, or how a combat tracker in the game would assist a better at all.

Essentially, you have made a baseless, false claim that shows a total lack of understanding.

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
I would absolutely relish if devs were reading this and made sure to implement much of what I suggest and even take it a step further.
Fuck your bots.

Sail that ship into the rocks.

Ludullu

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Fuck your boats.

Sail that ship into the rocks.

Fixed it

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
I would absolutely relish if devs were reading this and made sure to implement much of what I suggest and even take it a step further.
Fuck your bots.

Sail that ship into the rocks.

I like NiKr's version better.

I don't bot.

Your confusion between people that use combat trackers and people that bot does little more than point to you being unfit for discussion on the topic. Someone as uninformed as you simply can't have a valid opinion on the matter - just as I can't have a valid opinion on the work CERN has done in relation to the Higgs Boson - due to simply not having enough information on it.

The main difference between me in relation to CERN and you in relation to trackers is that at least I know that I would embarrass myself if I attempted to get in to a debate with someone that knew what they were talking about.

Strevi

Noaani wrote: »

We already have all the tools. What I am asking for is for Intrepid to implement those tools rather than leaving us to rely on third party tools.

This is purely so that Intrepid retains control of what can and can not be done with those tools, rather than leaving it up to a third party to decide for us all.

Makes sense. I was contemplating this too, if IS should or want to do it or not and how/why.

The wording of...

We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide.

...feels like Steven sees the logs as a compromise, also with the goal to retain control.
I think retaining control is important.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

DPS meters are not allowed.

There are many things that are "not allowed", yet are common regardless.

Nice try

Noaani

Strevi wrote: »

feels like Steven sees the logs as a compromise, also with the goal to retain control.
I think retaining control is important.

Yeah, I kind of think that is anpart of the reason we will have logs.

Problem is, it isn't going to stop people using trackers at all.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

DPS meters are not allowed.

There are many things that are "not allowed", yet are common regardless.

Nice try

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this.

Jaywalking is an example of a thing that isnt allowed in many parts of America (no idea why, its ridiculous), yet in most parts, no one is enforcing it at all. If nothing else, it would be too resource intensive to actually try to police, so the police just kind of dont. You basically need to be jaywalking in front of a cop, while giving him the finger to get in any sort of trouble for it.

Trackers will be exactly like this. Intrepid will not be actively looking for people using them. They cant, it would take too much.

However, if someone was livestreaming showing a tracker, then Intrepid may (and I stress the may part of that) do something about it.

Sapiverenus

@Noaani

Please stop trying to sound smart to protect yourself. It is nauseating.

I'd relish if all your bots got banned within the first day of setting them up though. Too bad I probably won't know either way. Get a new "job".

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani

Please stop trying to sound smart to protect yourself. It is nauseating.

I'd relish if all your bots got banned within the first day of setting them up though. Too bad I probably won't know either way. Get a new "job".

I'm not trying to "sound smart". If anything, I am dumbing things down to suit the audience.

Dont blame me if that results in you thinking I'm trying to sound smart.

Personally, I hope literally every bot gets detected and banned on the first day, that would be fantastic.

Your confusion between combat trackers and bots is still amusing though.

Aerlana

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Increasing immersive ways to gain info and immersive ways to limit it is also just FUN. With that, there is less difference between someone playing the game and someone 'metagaming' it.

In any game, i have fun retro-engeneering it, trying to understand how all is working,
I have no fun to have a "feeling that my build is good" ... i want to have a factual accurate answer. I have no problem to say "yeah, my build is clearly average, i would have better result if i played this build"... I play what i prefer to play and don't care what the meta is saying... but also i have no fun if i don't know where i am... it frustrate me (in bad way) and most often, i lose most interest on my character.

Also you speak about immersion, but... this is subjectiv. I have no immersion in a game i have to rely on feelings to consider if my builds are good or bad. I do what i like on games. You seems to consider i do this because i feel i am forced to do it but ... no. I am here to play, have fun, enjoy time spent.

There is not one way to enjoy video game, but a lot.

Strevi

Aerlana wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Increasing immersive ways to gain info and immersive ways to limit it is also just FUN. With that, there is less difference between someone playing the game and someone 'metagaming' it.

In any game, i have fun retro-engeneering it, trying to understand how all is working,
I have no fun to have a "feeling that my build is good" ... i want to have a factual accurate answer. I have no problem to say "yeah, my build is clearly average, i would have better result if i played this build"... I play what i prefer to play and don't care what the meta is saying... but also i have no fun if i don't know where i am... it frustrate me (in bad way) and most often, i lose most interest on my character.

Also you speak about immersion, but... this is subjectiv. I have no immersion in a game i have to rely on feelings to consider if my builds are good or bad. I do what i like on games. You seems to consider i do this because i feel i am forced to do it but ... no. I am here to play, have fun, enjoy time spent.

There is not one way to enjoy video game, but a lot.

Does it feel like playing a puzzle game too?

Strevi

Noaani wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

feels like Steven sees the logs as a compromise, also with the goal to retain control.
I think retaining control is important.

Yeah, I kind of think that is anpart of the reason we will have logs.

Problem is, it isn't going to stop people using trackers at all.

I'll chain a few questions fast.
How do bots work? Are those created by hackers? Do they change the game client to extract information or intercept network packages?
I'll assume yes.
In that case, they will be able to use data which might not be present in the client side, if IS would try to implement a combat tracker and would help them too.

If IS will implement a combat tracker, wouldn't players still use external combat trackers because might be better than the ones implemented in the game?
I think having a combat tracker in game will make it harder to detect those which use the external ones because the difference in play style would be small. Is it so? But anyway, if that would be the case, probably it would not matter anymore.

So at this point I think the conflict is between players, how the game is supposed to be played. And on which side is Steven. Mixing those different styles is not possible and each side reduces the fun of the other side.

Sapiverenus

@Aerlana

Immersion. The world being 'real'; hence information having to be gained from the World. Learning from the World about it.
So technically you are wrong that it is Subjective; unless we're counting Pennies and not Pounds.

And assuming that you have to metagame to be better at the game:
This idea of "build" is not good. This is standard MMO practice and is a result of lack of Immersion.

If everything in the game is mostly simplistique and arbitrary, not rewarding common sense it lacks Immersion.

The game should not be so static, simplistique, and transparent that people can create a guide of "what quest giver to go to for some gear to be able to clear this 1 dungeon for the good drop".
Such WoW type/ Simplistic MMO design is not Good.

And with power scaling not being so dramatic, the skill of the person is more important. A level 40 beating a level 50 due to Skill should exist. Or even a level 33 beating a level 50.

So Make the game Dynamic and 'Mysterious' as one Thread Poster requested. Keep the ##s not Transparent. Change precise Values. Tune content. Have a lot of interaction between variables besides 1 dimensional like Physical Damage <-> Armor while keeping it very very Intuitive and basically 'Organic'
.
Thus a 'Guide' would have to be about "Strategy & Tactics" rather than 'Build'.

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
I guess you dumbed it down so much you sounded dumb and dishonest

such as you characterizing a confusion between trackers and bots; clearly anything facilitating trackers would assist botting

And you do not seem to understand what trivializes the usefulness of trackers, coming from someone who seems to rely on them heavily and has some kind of 'faith' in their usefulness.

Sapiverenus

A prompt:

You don't want a game where you simply play the game and become Leader of #1 Guild on the Server?
Doing the Impossible? From simply playing and learning through the game?

Sapiverenus

And why the hell would anyone try and make it easier for Trackers.
Why let Trackers exist. They need to be eliminated and the game designed to eliminate their usefulness and popularity and eliminate their ability to be created in the first place.

Biccus

Sapiverenus wrote: »

clearly anything facilitating trackers would assist botting.

I’m no expert but this does sound like a baseless assumption. Could you go into detail on that one?

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