Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Traditional Roles - What they can offer.
* Anyone who places themselves in this role will know exactly what is expected of them.
* You will be able to use knowledge gained from playing this role in many other MMOs to help you learn AoC's take on it.
* When the role's are clearly identified they become part of the characters identity, "This is my tank".
* This establishes clear leadership and gives everyone someone to follow.
Nontraditional Roles - What they can offer.
* There would be less stress on those performing the role of tank if the responsibility fell to several as opposed to just one or two.
* Several versions of the role means that there are more options for players and potentially more people playing tanks overall.
* Being able to experience an old concept in a new way would be very exciting and refreshing
This is probably the greedy response to this question, but I would like to see both of these options utilized in AoC content. I can't imagine a fight without that classic battle hardened champion leading us against the biggest and baddest of foes; I also love the idea that there are like minded warriors out there who may not be ready to take on that lead role but are designed and capable of providing support where and when needed. I'd also like to add that having both options means that players will have a lot of flexibility when it comes to choosing how they build their teams and how they tackle fights.
Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
A Tank's role in an MMO is very dependent on how the game is designed and how enemies are designed. TO me a Tank's role falls in to a few different categories and I believe that someone who plays a Tank should specialize towards one of these Roles:
Taunter: Holds the sight and aggression of an enemy. Focus on being on singular focus. Their aim is not Wide spread aggro control but focused control of a threatening enemy and leading them to appropriate places in a battlefield (as per fight mechanics).
Controller: CC/ Debuff oriented and large AoE control. Used to control smaller mobs and keep enemies in line with a combo of hard and soft CC.
Ally Support: A Tank that can buff and support allies and make everyone as a whole more survivable or directly block damage for an ally. This would depend on if individual projectiles can be blocked and mitigated/ reflected and/or if enemy pathing can be blocked.
The main Trait of a Tank is being able to survive and making sure allies survive too in their own way, whether that be from holding an enemy with aggro (which should not be the ONLY mechanic at play), keeping allies protected or debuffing/CCing enemies to prevent action. Tank's mitigation, in my opinion, should be an active choice. I never like the idea of RNG based dodge chance or block chance. They should be intentional choices being made by the tank.
Main Tank/ Off Tank dynamics need to be intentional. There should be a defined reason to run more than one tank in a group and it should be wanted that there be a tank in a group. Tanks needing to trade off because of mechanics (Debuffs, positioning ect) or having to defend from multiple threats evenly (Hydra, beastmaster ect) is a good idea to me. With the above roles of a Tank mentioned, there could be reason to have multiple Tanks in a group (of large scale) to fulfill these different specializations, as long as mechanics call for them to be there.
Tanks are often not super popular(I feel) because of in-game feedback. You don't get to see the big animations, or the big numbers that come from DPS. Even with Healers you get feedback of seeing a HP bar go back up on an ally and get positive feedback. Tanks do not get that feedback as well as other Roles. Either a tank is doing a good job or everyone is dead (In modern traditional MMOs). Tanks should have mechanics and feedback built in to the game that rewards them for doing their Role:
Shielding allies through a mechanic that informs players they will die otherwise (positive interactions).
Interrupting an enemy and having the enemy recoil (Enemy animation as feedback)
Actively leading an enemy into a dangerous location for it and something happening as a result.
Tanks should receive feedback in game to let them (and sometimes others) know they've done something good, it would help players to feel cool and let tanks be seen as cooler.
I don't play PvP much so all I can say is:
For PvP. Much like healers, tanks in PvP are a dangerous balancing game. Players want to feel effective with enough damage but still fulfill their role as a tank. Having high survivability and high enough damage is not a good idea. But if there are countermeasures to certain tanks (stun breaks, Forced movements / separation, Armour penetration), then it's fair game.
Threat management "can" be fun but that should be a style of tank, not the only option. You could call it a provoker or something. Another one would be a defender, where you don't hold threat but rather you get in the way if attacks, mitigate damage through abilities that provide you or others invincibilities, etc. So a provoker might gain threat through abilities and then have to lifesteal to stay alive, where a defender might not get threat but rather have the ability to save others and block big attacks.
So long as it's interactive and fun then it's good. If it's just brainless ,"me click taunt every 3 seconds" then you're golden.
I’m very excited about this topic since I play tanks in any game that has the option. I like main tank roles, but I’d like to see more dynamic gameplay options. So instead of focusing only on acquiring huge amounts of defense stats to aggro big damage, I’d like to see tanks protect their group via well-timed blocking, shielding, and interrupting mechanics:
On one end of the spectrum would be nimble tanks that can jump to team members to elegantly block incoming enemy attacks, or dash to enemies to cripple movement so team members can get away. This tank would withstand moderate damage and have poor DPS, but the focus would be on using high agility/teleportation and good timing to “juggle” teammates (one-by-one) and completely block damage.
On the other end would be your beefy, sword-and-shield tanks. Instead of agility, they would depend on lassoing or knocking back enemies and spell interrupting abilities to mitigate enemy damage. They would also use physical/magical shield abilities that can protect based on proximity and positioning between teammates and the tank. These playstyles, their combinations, and +/- magic would give players a range of customization and combat intensity. This would probably work with several tanks fighting as well.
This will more or less be my thoughts on tanking and what it means.
Traditional tanks allow boss fights to be more "organized." DPS get to do their rotation, tanks get to work on survivability, and healers keep tanks alive until mechanics come out. Problem is, it become monotonous in certain situations if there's only ever 1 target to tank, and tanking is often harder to get into. All that said, here's my take on what makes tanking good, and what makes it bad.
Good:
1. Easy to pick up threat on multiple mobs. Low GCD, high range on some abilities.
2. Mitigation of all types, durations and cooldowns. Variety that helps the tank stay alive, rather than letting it be mostly passive. Anti-CC, minor healing, magic/physical mitigation, group mitigation, etc....)
3. When a DPS can use a special ability to temporarily tank. A DPS warrior putting on a shield or them/hunter/rogue using their parry/dodge cooldown.
4. Variety in tank roles. Fast tanks (like monk in WoW) vs slow tanks (most others) makes the role diverse. One mistake I see games making, is only giving DPS this variety.
5. The ability to choose how you go through a dungeon. Finding interesting ways to pull enemies and get through a dungeon is largely what makes tanking interesting to me. Not enough to easily get lost, but enough to have choices.
Bad:
1. Complete self-sustain. DKs in WoW, Warriors in FF14...in small group content, these classes are extremely boring to heal, because they stay alive themselves. SOME self-sustain is important though; something closer to Paladin in FF14 and...well, paladin in WoW earlier on in Shadowlands (although they were a bit much then too.)
2. Long GCDs and threat. Gonna be honest, getting aggro in FF14 is not hard, but the long GCD makes tanking less enjoyable for me. Perhaps the server tick-rate is also to blame, but I won't get into that here. In WoW, I'd say tanking feels a lot better (again, 4/5 man content.)
3. Dungeons designed around obvious ways of pulling. In FF14, many dungeons are: pull 2 groups > kill > pull 2 groups > kill > boss. rinse and repeat. Don't get me wrong, I loved most FF14 dungeons, but once you've done them a couple times it becomes too formulaic. Can be said for other games as well, but FF14 takes the cake here.
4. Monsters with too many CC effects. Seeing people play New World and getting tossed around and being unable to do things properly looked like hell. I would never tank in a game like that. Make SOME monsters dangerous, but make it obvious and give tanks tools for dealing with it. In FF14 you get an anti-knockback buff. It lasts a short time and is on a 2min CD, but that can be altered to be more active.
5. Dungeons where your ability to tank doesn't make much of a difference. This ties into point 3 here. Allowing tanks to use line-of-sight and other tools to pull efficiently feels amazing, rather than dungeons where everything is literally just in the path ahead. That said, too many enemies you want to skip is also not ideal.
Ultimately, so long as shields exist, tanking should 100% be a thing. Whether you have 1 or 3 tanks should be your choice, but give 'tanks' the option to change a few things to do more DPS. Tanking Karazhan in original TBC on my gnome warrior was great, because I had a Dual-wield DPS set to switch to for a couple bosses. My DPS was still sub-par, but better than with my shield.
So...in essence:
1. Variety with tank type choice (fast/slow)
2. Variety with tank mitigation (anti-CC, magic, physical, pushback, etc...)
3. Variety with tank choice (more damage and less surv, more surv less speed/dmg, etc...)
4. Variety in ways of doing your job.
Give us tanks, but give those tanks options. That's all I'll say for now.
I usually play tank and here comes my take -
When I pick tank I want to feel like a Goalie in soccer or hockey or whatever.
It's traditionally a pillar of a raid/party and I think it should stay that way.
Tanks want to run around and solely be the shield for the entire unit.
When bigger units like a raid, maybe co-opporate with a few other tanks to cut some slack.
Like many people say in this discussion - Make Threat more interesting and dynamic. What i think people want when they say that is to make the boss have more AI- than NPC-thinking without taking away the feeling of being in control of the aggro.
Fighting a Dragon, one scenario:
- Starting the fight with gapclosing to gain time for threat stacking. Fight goes on for a while.
- The dragon slams its tail in anger so everyone, in the direction in the direction of the tail, falls or gets thrown backwards into the air.
- Then the dragon put its focus towards a certain player (like a controlled aggro shift) and fills its lungs with air to burst fire at the player.
- During this timeframe the tank (who maybe has been thrown away or not) has to gapclose and use a shield skill to tank the fire.
- Fire on shield = aggro goes back to the tank.
- Fight keeps going.
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Options
mwpate42Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like the idea of having a main tank and an off tank for specialized purposes as I think it adds to character identity. I for one love the idea of making a magic negation tank and am ready to to lower some physical defenses in order to boost magical defenses. I understand this choice might make me a secondary pick for some raid encounters that do more physical damage, but I'd be first pick against caster type enemies. Beyond this, I think it would be a cool idea to have a small party of tanks that can achieve different results, such as a Paladin that can heal/buff while tanking, a mage tank that can debuff/control, a physical tank that can weaken defenses/crush armor, etc.
Also, as others have mentioned, I am a big fan of mobility and environment interaction. I don't want to just charge at a boss and stand there eating all the hits; I'd rather be able to read the room and be able to intercept an arrow that a booby-trap or an add fires off at my dos/healer and then return to the fray with the big baddie.
Main spec tanks should be a threat and actually be "tanks" (not dealing more damage than a tank should and winning 1v1s) I'd love to see threat generation done by CCing mobs. This way tanks aren't primarily used in strictly PvE content and can still use CC in PvP without having to change skills. I would also love to see a block that blocks all incoming damage in a direction that drains a resource and restores over time instead of a dodge roll which makes them easily distinguishable and is more fitting for the class. A skill that sucks enemies in towards the tank allowing the tank to CC its enemies would also be great for both PvE and PvP. Tanks of different specs could have different variations of debuffs, i.e after a tank pulls an enemy their magic resist is reduced.
I sadly didn't have time to say my piece when this was posted, but I recently watched the August Development update, and it reminded me of some ideas that I really hoped someone might hear. I'll keep it as concise as possible.
I realise some of these ideas have already been mentioned, but I think they still need to be tied together into a balance concept a bit more cohesively.
I come from a DAOCamelot-style RvR game without any PvE. Since everyone was spending most of their time in the game in the warzone, the one thing the game had to excel at was making PvP interesting, and that strength certainly transferred onto tanking mechanics.
The biggest thing about making tanks interesting in PvP is making them responsible for their *allies* health, rather than just the rather uninspired approach of making them very tanky themselves, and them having them threaten their enemies with CC. That's not a guardian knght in shining armour - that's essentially just a damage dealer who's been nerfed from a belligerent hornet to a really annoying bumblebee with a shell.
Give them magical shield buffs that reduce incoming AoE by 90% for 3 seconds. Let them instantly dash to allies in order to block projectiles or enemy charges. Allow shields to track ally movement automatically and turn that into a mechanic. The untapped potential for defensive tools in MMOs is extremely vast, and while yes, this turns tanks from an active fighter to a supportive protector, I really think this role of the tank has been vastly neglected in recent generations of games. Not everyone who's not a healer or the bard (and even them in recent games...) needs to have their eyes focused on the enemy for the majority of the fight. Make defence its own objective in the fight, and design roles, and skill interactions, around that idea.
I realise that the prompt is more concerned with PvE "main and off-tank" roles, but I think this idea could translate really well into all types of gameplay. Tanks having to jump back to physically cover undodgeable attacks for allies. Tanks being responsible for AoE defence buffs for the party, or covering spawning zones to prevent them to reach their allies. But while these mechanics can *translate* into PvE, I think the best way to make them interesting is to make them *work* in PvP, and then design boss mechanics around pushing them to their limits.
If you make these types of interactions the core of the tank, that means you have to balance his aggressive abilities (engage gap closers, CC, some damage), tankiness (Standard stuff) and ally protection (direct damage soaking for allies [preferably through magic; active blocking is fun, but there should also be other tools to soak damage] preventative shielding abilities [Leave reactive dispells to healers], supportive mobility, defence buffs, but also erecting obstacles for enemies)
My instinct tells me the best balancing approach to that would be to allow no more than two of that to be highly effective in one player - and preferably also make it possible to hyperfocus and completely dominate in a single one only. I imagine a squishy support tank who blocks everything but pops if he gets focused down himself could encourage extremely engaging gameplay.
Having tanked in ESO, Guild Wars 2, and Final Fantasy 14, I would say that I like the main/off tank configuration when it is implemented well. That being said, there are a few things I would like to offer given the nature of this game (PvX) and it’s mixed active/tab combat system. I am late to this thread so I apologize if some of this has already been said.
1) I liked the idea that FF14 had with its different tank classes where one was supposed to be focused on raw physical damage mitigation, one was better at DPS, and one was for magical mitigation. Unfortunately the differences between these types was very minimal until you got into end level raids. With the class system of AoC, I would like to see a spectrum where a Tank/Tank be the best damage sponge at the expense of mobility/damage output, a Tank/Mage would be best for magical damage mitigation at the expense of physical, Tank/Rogue would have best CC, etc.
2) Since the combat system is hybrid, I would like tank skills to reflect this. For example, active skills (blocks in this instance) would have a short cooldown but a second or two activation but the damage they deflect is reduced the further they are from the actual attack (a block skill used right before a blow blocks most of all damage, one done a second too early blocks less than half, transferring the damage to the tank). Other skills would focus on CC and buffs. Also active blocks would generate much more hate than CC and buff abilities. A system like this would allow for A) a class that is easy to learn but hard to master, Skill based gameplay, C) a reasonable distinction between a main and off tank as well as a reason beside specifically-set boss abilities to switch out roles, and D) a more viable PVP class.
3 ) I think that, taking a cue from Monster Hunter and rogue-likes, Tanks (and classes who use heavy armor and weapons) should move slower than someone in leather or cloth. Having a slow Tank makes the group pay attention the the boss and tank during a fight (don’t want to get out of their cone of protection) and it allows for something closer to the Rock-Paper-Scissors motif in PVP: a Tank can block a lot of damage and stun people, etc but if a Rogue can slip behind them with their higher mobility and speed, they can do a lot of damage and beat a Tank. This is compounded by differences in a Tank/Tank and a Tank/Ranger, say, who may have a quick roll or something to overcome some of the slow speed. This adds some risk and reward to the rock-paper-scissor calculation of PVP.
PvE: Personally I have no major gripes with how tanking works in most decent MMORPGs at the moment. Love the idea of active mitigation however where you're required to "raise your defenses" in anticipation of a big attack and save cooldowns for important phases etc. Generally more fun than just "grab aggro, hold it and thats it"
PvP: others have mentioned the idea of tanks being Disruptors/Initiators, charging their way into enemy lines with things in their kit that give them the ability to gap close and exert control on the battlefield (CCs, debuffs etc). This is a given imo, however I think a great use for tanks in pvp, especially at a larger scale, is the aspect of providing defense and "cover" for your group/raid. Some kind of mechanic where you provide damage reduction for teammates behind you in some kind of cone perfectly fits the roll of a "frontline" tank and adds an overall element of strategic planning for group composition in engagements. Both from a fantasy and gameplay perspective.
I don’t personally care whether there are many tanks or main/off tanks as a general rule. The situation should dictate the number and type not the other way around. That is, I’d prefer flexibility in encounters vs all encounters dictated by a simple notion of tank design.
That said, what I do care about, similar to thoughts posted by @Azherae , is how the tank functions. I completely agree that a tanks job should be about positioning and mitigation. I’ve tanked in many MMOs and by far the best tanking experience was in the short lived Warhammer Online. Because you could not run/pass through another player’s avatar, a tank could physically block the advance of other players/enemies. I recall once defending the entry to a tower “standing” shoulder to shoulder blocking the advance of the enemy while back line healers and dps fought safely behind. It made the tanking experience far more meaningful than simple hate meters (e.g. WoW).
As a life long tank main, i think the classic main tank and off-tank setup is the best. I also agree with previous comments that tanks should be relevant in pvp, especially this game where pvp is going to be such a large focus, because in a lot of mmos (such as WoW) you're kind of considered trolling if you bring a tank to pvp except for things such as capture the flag. I think the perfect way a tank should be in pvp is a dps can't kill them, but they probably can't kill the dps.
Threat should definitely be a thing, it's most of what makes tanking interesting. Also i think it's worth experimenting with taunt being relevant in PvP.
Looking at the various class roles there should be jobs withing the battle for these various roles to fulfill.
I think a Guardian should have the ability that other tanks do not. He can hold the aggro of a boss mainly by himself, except for the occasional period when he needs a switch out. He delivers little damage, that isnt his job. But if the group does not have a Guardian, the boss could also be held by a couple of off tanks, maybe a dreadnaught and a Siren together, they also deliver damage, so take him down potentially quicker, BUT, are easier to kill/loose aggro, so they would need to work much more closely together.
As a life long tank main, i think the classic main tank and off-tank setup is the best. I also agree with previous comments that tanks should be relevant in pvp, especially this game where pvp is going to be such a large focus, because in a lot of mmos (such as WoW) you're kind of considered trolling if you bring a tank to pvp except for things such as capture the flag. I think the perfect way a tank should be in pvp is a dps can't kill them, but they probably can't kill the dps.
Threat should definitely be a thing, it's most of what makes tanking interesting. Also i think it's worth experimenting with taunt being relevant in PvP.
tanks are great in WoW PvP from what I hear. What are ya talking about. they tend to be a well-rounded and effective class
Another tank player here. Love all the contributions already, so am not gonna write a lenghty one.
I just want to add that, at the moment, in MMOs there is one ideal Tank role. Which means AoC has a chance to define it. Different MMOs that I play (WoW, LA, NW, ...) get some aspect right, but fail at others, when it comes to tanking. In general, contributions here are legit and would resolve into a really nice tanking role.
I just want Devs / Designers to keep in mind:
Do not let tanks to be just meat shields and soak damage just because they have armor and big HP pool
There should be some active ways to gain Enemies attention, other than obvious 'Taunt' spell. Meaning if there is a taunt spell, it should have decently high CD and if Enemy targets someone else during the fight, there should be means to re-gain threat without Taunt spell with some good tactics, positioning, etc.
If there are encounters where it is requried to have mulitple tank roles, they shouldn't be there just to 'tank-swap', but rather the off-tank should have active tasks during the encounter too, like tanking some spawned enemies that need to be dealth with, or doing some objectives during encounter that only off-tank can do,
Also in PvP the tanks should feel kinda safe in the sense that they cannot just be easily ganked. But also, they cannot also just easily kill anyone. But I thing the first is more important. If you are a tank, and move slowly, attack slowly, etc. It would be awesome if you are not easily gankable in a PvP world.
In some Battleground, it is important that Tanks have gap-closing skills, so they are not overly kitted all the time by ranged classes. There should be good balance between gap-closing CDs (perhaps different spells for different kind of gap-closings effects).
All-in-all, the major issue with tanking can be that it is not 'fun to play'. It might feel slow (slow movement) or not rewarding (just being meat shield, or just running around in PvP). Nailing the fun part will win my heart
I've enjoyed tanking across a number of MMOs. I think a range of experiences have lead to the most enjoyment. Just a few thoughts:
- I dont expect to be anywhere near the DPS output of a DPS class, but need to be able to get by when solo questing without feeling like Im breaking a stone with a spoon
- Threat should be a thing and for PvP it can work with an aura or skills that reduce the dps output of nearby pvp enemy
- DPS players should not be able to tank, or at least not for long. We should NEED a tank
- Other AoE skills to buff allies (Lotro captain) are appealing so a tank isnt just about soaking damage
- having some variety to tank playstyles would be good. S&B might block more but less dps, while 2H might parry rather than block but offer a little more dps, maybe need strength to carry a larger more able shield but at the consequence of less stamina/health so you could have a stamina build with more health but not as good a shield and so on.
- would like to see some active blocking if possible, so a tank might block 50% damage or 75% if you actively block (for example)
Just some thoughts.
I suppose one gripe for non-tanks has always been the dungeon queue, waiting for tanks. That is hard to get around unless you allow dps to tank, but that can remove the need for tanks so they feel less useful. Im personally not keen on being able to brute force a dungeon where 5x dps can face roll it.
Alpha One System for testing: Win10 64bit, Intel i9-9900k, GeForce RTX 2080Ti
I think there are generally two reasons people don't play tanks: Not fun or effective in PVP and guilds generally don't need more than 3 or 4. The focus should be to create dynamic skills for tanks in PVP through mainly damage mitigation and CCs, then add threat generation to them so they can hold aggro in PVE. People want to kill tanks last because they do not do damage and they're so hard to kill, so ignoring tanks in PVP needs to have consequences. Some of the best are when the tank is constantly CCing you in some way. "Get this tank off me!" should be what they're screaming in the middle of a fight.
Examples of desired tank skills:.
Triggered with cooldowns:
Charge: Close the distance and stun - generate threat (PVE)
Shield Bash: Interrupt and slow attack speed- generate threat (PVE) - shield ability
Warcry: AOE slow movement speed- generate threat (PVE)
Block: Active block timed by player to prevent damage from a big hit - shield ability - maybe a counter attack based on the damaged blocked would be cool.
Last stand: Less than X health, take no damage for x seconds, but can't attack or move for 3x seconds (long cooldown) - shield ability
* These kinds of skills make tanks annoying to ignore, hard to kill and gives the tank something to do in PVP since they can't deal significant damage*
Passive Skills:
Increased Block Chance: (although there's a triggered block, there should still be random blocks.)
Increased Armor Skill/Rating: Tanks get more out of the same piece of armor than other classes
Increased Shield Skill/Rating: Tanks get more out of the same shield than other classes
Increased Health Points
To sum up, making tanks annoying will create that real world "aggro" that will be effective in PVP.
Thoughts from someone newer to tanking and how new or prospective tank players might feel.
As a tank I envision most people have two fantasies or something along these lines. The first being the protector of the party, the one who jumps in to save their ally from a blow that would otherwise spell their death. Think Reinhardt from overwatch, Braum from League of Legends, Newcastle from Apex Legends to name a few popular games. Putting the player between the enemy and their teammate. The second is the unkillable raid boss that gets in the enemy’s face and creates a threat that cannot be ignore, someone who will tear into the backline with kill pressure while soaking damage and heals unless they are met with an opposing titan.
I want to play and feel like the above, as someone who has tried tanking in other games but ultimately switched out, here are some things I noticed, liked, and disliked about taking on the role.
PVE
Tanking through threat was fun at first, managing your threat level and taunts while blocking and dodging enemy attacks was a fun mini game to play, but the mini game does get old and it can be hard to feel like a part of the team while playing it. Managing threat is something that is good for standard mobs, early bosses, and maybe certain phases of late game bosses, but having gameplay without threat is something that I feel would be key to attracting a lot of new tank players.
Having phases where bosses target healers, furthest player in the room, player with the lowest defense value, random player etc. this would make fights more engaging for DPS and healers as well as they might have to take evasive actions to protect themselves in fights. Tanks could also assist them by positioning themselves in the way of the charge, strike, or projectile to block them. Adding more interaction between tank players and their DPS outside of holding threat would make the role much more engaging and feel rewarding when the player makes a critical protective maneuver.
For when tanks do have to manage threat, having different tanking styles is something that adds a lot of fun to the class. Giving players the choice between a tank style that relies more on dodging attack or one that puts up a shield and eats them all was something that I enjoyed seeing.
PVP
Pvp was the worst experiences I had as a tank. I was either a target dummy sitting on a control point, a Crowd control bot, or a fly buzzing around the backline being ignored.
Holding on to a control point in siege type game modes is definitely a job that should belong to the tank. And having some gameplay where you hold your ground with your shield up while spells and projectiles fly and explode all around you can be fun when it happens at pivotal moments in the fight, but if that’s all I am doing then I am better off playing a melee DPS.
When I wasn’t sitting on a control point I always felt I couldn’t do my job. Here I am, the protector of my party, and there goes the enemy, right past me completely ignoring me. Especially in large scale fights, my damage was never enough to threaten and force them to back off as it would just be healed back up, often even trying to keep up with them in my heavy armor was a challenge. Finally, if I was able to keep up, then my only redeeming quality was crowd control, which if the enemy dodged or lived through usually spelt out a dead team member as I stood there wracking their attacker with a wet noodle.
Lastly when the enemies line was broken and it was time to charge into the enemy backline I was once again facing the issue of lacking kill pressure. Watching them continue to heal or damage other players while not even sparing me a second glance as they roll or strafe with me in tow on a wild goose chase felt humiliating. In large scale pvp i would often see tanks face one of two problems when trying to break into a backline, either the damage was too great due to the sheer number of players or the healing was so strong that playing a warrior who could soak up damage just as well as me while also actually dealing damage made me feel like my role was only in the game for pve content.
While I may not be the best player, or the greatest tank, a lot of these problems either vanished or were easier to overcome as soon as I switched over to melee DPS.
My problems may not even apply to all tank players, however to players like me who are newer to the class like me, I’m sure they have a similar experience to me. It is an experience that I hope I, and everyone else who would like to give tank a try, do not go through again in ashes.
PS. Thank you for addressing this topic and as an additional note, I would love to see more mechanics and skill demanded of tanks. I am all for, in fact in favor of, a high skill ceiling, as long as the skill floor isn’t too demanding for new players and the class never feels like it doesn’t have a place in the situation.
Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Neither
I'd prefer a D&D combat system. By that I mean there are advantages to having ranged open up, a rogue sneak attacking, silently knocking out enemies, open with status affects, or a wizard with an AOE spell and I definitely, don't like the idea of a tank "tanking" any more than 5 npcs before enemy's head to the next player. I think if intrepid fleshes out the types of AI behavior...then they'll be able to see what type of dynamics the "classes" need to have. But I wouldn't actually start with the classes, because that limits encounters. Players have to stick with their class, but it's the encounters that change and make things interesting. If the encounters are good, then the classes by definition will have to well-made and interesting.
Tanks in group content - In a group setting, what responsibilities of a tank role do you think should be solely on the tank? Are there any responsibilities that are usually put on the tank role that you feel should be shared between members of the group?
Tanks in group content should be appointed the normal tank role, to gather attention of the mobs or boss as well as CC from a PVE perspective, and to be a annoyance that creates openings and opportunity's for killing players in a pvp setting. As this is a 8 person party if were going off a normal setting I believe the safest and logical line up would be 2 supports, 2 tanks, 4 dps. Obviously 1 main support, 1 off support (Perfect for a bard) and 1 main tank, 1 off tank (Backup in case main tank goes down or focus on ccing adds).
Tanks in raid content - Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Depending on the raid I believe that it should be a maximum of 4 tanks. I believe the less the better and it really should come down to how well the tanks work in unison. If one person keeps pulling agro off another then its not efficient. I believe that truly there should be 2 tanks of a well put together team. 3 if they aren't experienced or the raid is a big tank check. And 4 if you truly worried. I think 4 is even pushing it.
What is an acceptable level of tank specialization? How many of our 8 tank classes should be able to main tank a boss for a raid force? If a tank cannot main tank a raid boss, what should they be able to do to make up for that?
I believe that any tank class should be able to main tank a boss its just a matter of gear and situation. It all depends on how the tank uses their augments to benefit the raid in a support way. As long as you have a primary of tank you should be able to do what a tank can do. Obviously wasting lets say a dps ability when you should be focusing on CC and Pulling enemies would be a result of a bad tank not a bad game. As long as the game gives the primary tank everything they need to perform in a raid they should be able to do so with any augment.
Tanks in PvP situations - What feels good and what doesn’t feel good about tanks in player vs player situations?
Tanks in solo situations - When soloing as a tank, what are things you like, and what are things you’d like to see us avoid.
In my personal opinion what feels great as a tank in a pvp situation is the assist role. Tanks should be able to CC/Stun/Mark enemies in PVP. Tanks should also have active blocking to keep them aware of what they are doing in PVP. However I do not wish for any active block to be like New World. You should not just sit in a pvp fight and hold right click to block. You should have benefits such as perfect blocks, or block primarily to stop a main attack like a rain of arrows and protect the people behind you. I consider tanks to be an annoyance and something similar to a wall in pvp and wars. I did see a lot of people saying well how would they balance this? In my opinion debuffs balance this, as well as gear. A tank should be able to protect their allies and themselves in wars/sieges but take a penalty if that block is broken or ability to shield others wares off.
As for thing's I would like you to avoid as well as tanks in solo situations. I don't think someone who picks a primary class of Tank should be spoon fed the ability to out damage a dps person. I believe that there should be a certain skill ceiling that allows tanks to have fun in their own right. However if you are looking to solo as a tank or do damage as a tank that is equal to a dps. I believe whole heartedly that you have picking the wrong primary. Your primary should be the dps that you are looking for and the augment should be the tank for the beefyness that you want. I believe players should be liable for picking a class especially a Tank in a game that follows the triangle. That being said, I do not believe that tanks should do no damage as a matter of fact I think augments should assist with that. I just don't think that tanks should be able to over power a DPS Main anymore then 3/10 times in a fight based on overall dps. If based on skill that depends on the player. But if were talking a 1-1 comparison on damage they should not be anywhere near a dps. Obviously Reflective damage can assist with this as well as gear and level difference. My main point is I want you to avoid making tanks a meta for arenas and wars. I want them to be useful in the way they were meant to be useful and for Berserkers or Battle Mages to be hold accountable to pick the correct primary class such as Fighter or Mage and then be required to augment into Tank for a more health kit. Taking the ability way for them to be able to be un-killable and have 2 dps classes.
Discussion of tank abilities - From your experiences in other games, what feels good, and what doesn’t, regarding a tank’s class kit?
To my best of knowledge and personal experience is the best feeling is when you feel like you made a impact. A example I gave in the discussion is, I want to feel like I just protected my party from a wipe because of blocked a fire dragon breath or I shielded my party and they were behind me. I do not want to stand in one place and be like oh wow my block stat kicked off nice! In regard to abilities the best abilities for tanks in both pve and pvp scenarios are those that can pull agro and cc enemies. I believe that it should be a tanks job to get enemies in a spot where the dps want them in order to kill them efficiently. As long as the game feels impactful and doesn't give in to some of the older systems it will be perfect. The game is coming out in lets say 2024/2025. Or even later then that. Let the new systems shine and the old systems that aren't needed die out. The game should not feel like we are being thrown back into classic WoW or runescape. It should be its own experience that we can create with our friends and be unique so that we can always remember this as another true mmorpg experience.
Thank you for reading this far, I appreciate all the players that spoke today as they had a great mindset and definitely great discussion. See you all next time!
I fully trust Intrepid studios to make tanks of fun and useful versatility in PVE content as well as PVP content. Although, PVP tanks are in my opinion the most difficult role to effectively make enjoyable and useful. In Ashes of Creation the largest PVP content would be node sieges and to define the role of a tank let's look at what tanking would entail in a node siege scenario:
1. Taking objectives
2. Holding the front line
3. Peeling for allied units
4. Providing incentive for enemy dps to target them
As the tank role whatever you guys decide to do they will be able to hold objectives. The main problem I notice for the tank role is in PVP scenarios is the lack of player decision from enemy players to want to dps down a tank. How can a tank "taunt" a player in the same way they would aggro monsters? There should be a conscious decision from players to want to target the tank. I like to imagine in a castle siege two walls of tanks constantly pushing against each other through the main gate. With player collision being a mechanic, tanks would be given a way of forming a front line that would defend both sides units. As incentive for tanks to be targeted down I believe there should be some kind of damage mitigation for the allies of a tank that originates from the tank class. This would not only discourage enemies from targeting players close to tanks but perhaps also more define the rogue class as the only class to bypass this mitigation. As to how exactly this aura would work I'll leave that in your professional hands if you choose to incorporate such an effect. I imagine tanks would have ways of mobility and cc instances in order to peel and generate threat. In conclusion, if a tank can not fulfill the four roles given in a pvp scenario effectively then it can lead to lack luster gameplay and a feeling of uselessness as you watch rangers gun down you healers and fighters cut down your rangers always leaving the tanks for last. I hope this comment helps and I wish you the best of luck! No matter your decisions I'm going to thoroughly enjoy playing tank in Alpha 2
I hate traditiona tanking in MMORPGs. irst of all: one mistake and you and your group is dead. second: everybody expects the tank to already know every litte detail of every dungeon. Third: most tank builds are just boring.
But there are cases when I like playing Tank. I liked playing Tank in Overwatch very much. So maybe you could ome up with a system that is more like that. So the tanks have abilitys to create shields, heal themselfs, pull enemys etc and can still deal a decent mount of damage.
Well I missed the discussion because i am dumb. Thought it was today.
My question/suggestion comes around off tanking and even “alt” tanking. What I mean is in classic wow for example, warlocks had the “tank” summons that could be used as off tanks in certain scenarios. I think this is something that adds versatility to classes, and would like to see more of in group content.
As for generic off tanking, I think it’s important that an off tank can’t just be great at every encounter. A paladin in wow for example could just stack physical damage mitigation and self heals for really good self sustain when offtanking physical damage type monsters, but might get shit on without extra heal support if the monster had a different damage type. I think this is something that adds some thought to the group structure for boss encounters.
If you had a boss encounter with a duo or trio, where each had different damage types, and they healed each other, it would make for an interesting encounter of trying to off tank and keep a certain boss of the pack silenced or stunned to prevent it from healing the other boss. This is even something that can be scaled down as seen in some fun simple games like realm of the mad god. You can find mobs in the normal realm that mimic this trio aspect while leveling, and introduces the mechanics early.
I’m going to read through everything here but, I guess my main point is no one tank should be good at every encounter. Tanks should be able to specialize in a certain damage mitigation and have to rely on teamwork to be successful for bosses outside of that specialization. Warrior for damage, paladin for holy, Druid for nature, warlock summons for mage. There are a lot of different ways you can split the tank roles by damage types. multi boss encounters where the lack of an off tank or multiple off tanks can lead to a wipe offers a unique challenge you don’t see in every game, and it’s one of my favorite types of encounters for raid content.
Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Its sort of hard to gauge that with the lack of knowledge on the class itself and what the archtypes will bring to the table. One thing I am sort of nervous about is when you said that the archtypes wont really change the class in a huge way. While that is fine with the DPS because there are quite a few different flavors, I am worried that the difference between the different tank archtypes are going to be the color and animations of the skills. If that is the case, then I don't see a benifit of having a bunch of tanks in a fight.
Even if they do change the play style and bring other utility to the fight, I think that bringing several tanks to the fight would make a fight hard to get into. Tank players are hard to come by in MMOs these days, and while I love the decreased dungeon queue times in modern MMOs myself, I think that it could get tiresomes running around town to find tank number 4 for a fight. Plus, I have no clue what job a mass of tanks can have in this situation. Seems like a healer's nightmare.
I do like the ideas of "paper tanks" though. There have been a few MMOs in the past that did a good job of this. Having DPS, usualy mail wearing types, that could take hits decently in fights. It made things more interesting then, when the tank wipes everyone dies. Its gets a lot harder for the healer and the party, but it gives you a chance. It seems these days that mail wearing DPS classes are pretty much for cosmetics, or being able to stand in mechanics better than others which seems a waste.
Comments
Traditional Roles - What they can offer.
* Anyone who places themselves in this role will know exactly what is expected of them.
* You will be able to use knowledge gained from playing this role in many other MMOs to help you learn AoC's take on it.
* When the role's are clearly identified they become part of the characters identity, "This is my tank".
* This establishes clear leadership and gives everyone someone to follow.
Nontraditional Roles - What they can offer.
* There would be less stress on those performing the role of tank if the responsibility fell to several as opposed to just one or two.
* Several versions of the role means that there are more options for players and potentially more people playing tanks overall.
* Being able to experience an old concept in a new way would be very exciting and refreshing
This is probably the greedy response to this question, but I would like to see both of these options utilized in AoC content. I can't imagine a fight without that classic battle hardened champion leading us against the biggest and baddest of foes; I also love the idea that there are like minded warriors out there who may not be ready to take on that lead role but are designed and capable of providing support where and when needed. I'd also like to add that having both options means that players will have a lot of flexibility when it comes to choosing how they build their teams and how they tackle fights.
A Tank's role in an MMO is very dependent on how the game is designed and how enemies are designed. TO me a Tank's role falls in to a few different categories and I believe that someone who plays a Tank should specialize towards one of these Roles:
Taunter: Holds the sight and aggression of an enemy. Focus on being on singular focus. Their aim is not Wide spread aggro control but focused control of a threatening enemy and leading them to appropriate places in a battlefield (as per fight mechanics).
Controller: CC/ Debuff oriented and large AoE control. Used to control smaller mobs and keep enemies in line with a combo of hard and soft CC.
Ally Support: A Tank that can buff and support allies and make everyone as a whole more survivable or directly block damage for an ally. This would depend on if individual projectiles can be blocked and mitigated/ reflected and/or if enemy pathing can be blocked.
The main Trait of a Tank is being able to survive and making sure allies survive too in their own way, whether that be from holding an enemy with aggro (which should not be the ONLY mechanic at play), keeping allies protected or debuffing/CCing enemies to prevent action. Tank's mitigation, in my opinion, should be an active choice. I never like the idea of RNG based dodge chance or block chance. They should be intentional choices being made by the tank.
Main Tank/ Off Tank dynamics need to be intentional. There should be a defined reason to run more than one tank in a group and it should be wanted that there be a tank in a group. Tanks needing to trade off because of mechanics (Debuffs, positioning ect) or having to defend from multiple threats evenly (Hydra, beastmaster ect) is a good idea to me. With the above roles of a Tank mentioned, there could be reason to have multiple Tanks in a group (of large scale) to fulfill these different specializations, as long as mechanics call for them to be there.
Tanks are often not super popular(I feel) because of in-game feedback. You don't get to see the big animations, or the big numbers that come from DPS. Even with Healers you get feedback of seeing a HP bar go back up on an ally and get positive feedback. Tanks do not get that feedback as well as other Roles. Either a tank is doing a good job or everyone is dead (In modern traditional MMOs). Tanks should have mechanics and feedback built in to the game that rewards them for doing their Role:
Shielding allies through a mechanic that informs players they will die otherwise (positive interactions).
Interrupting an enemy and having the enemy recoil (Enemy animation as feedback)
Actively leading an enemy into a dangerous location for it and something happening as a result.
Tanks should receive feedback in game to let them (and sometimes others) know they've done something good, it would help players to feel cool and let tanks be seen as cooler.
I don't play PvP much so all I can say is:
For PvP. Much like healers, tanks in PvP are a dangerous balancing game. Players want to feel effective with enough damage but still fulfill their role as a tank. Having high survivability and high enough damage is not a good idea. But if there are countermeasures to certain tanks (stun breaks, Forced movements / separation, Armour penetration), then it's fair game.
So long as it's interactive and fun then it's good. If it's just brainless ,"me click taunt every 3 seconds" then you're golden.
On one end of the spectrum would be nimble tanks that can jump to team members to elegantly block incoming enemy attacks, or dash to enemies to cripple movement so team members can get away. This tank would withstand moderate damage and have poor DPS, but the focus would be on using high agility/teleportation and good timing to “juggle” teammates (one-by-one) and completely block damage.
On the other end would be your beefy, sword-and-shield tanks. Instead of agility, they would depend on lassoing or knocking back enemies and spell interrupting abilities to mitigate enemy damage. They would also use physical/magical shield abilities that can protect based on proximity and positioning between teammates and the tank. These playstyles, their combinations, and +/- magic would give players a range of customization and combat intensity. This would probably work with several tanks fighting as well.
Traditional tanks allow boss fights to be more "organized." DPS get to do their rotation, tanks get to work on survivability, and healers keep tanks alive until mechanics come out. Problem is, it become monotonous in certain situations if there's only ever 1 target to tank, and tanking is often harder to get into. All that said, here's my take on what makes tanking good, and what makes it bad.
Good:
1. Easy to pick up threat on multiple mobs. Low GCD, high range on some abilities.
2. Mitigation of all types, durations and cooldowns. Variety that helps the tank stay alive, rather than letting it be mostly passive. Anti-CC, minor healing, magic/physical mitigation, group mitigation, etc....)
3. When a DPS can use a special ability to temporarily tank. A DPS warrior putting on a shield or them/hunter/rogue using their parry/dodge cooldown.
4. Variety in tank roles. Fast tanks (like monk in WoW) vs slow tanks (most others) makes the role diverse. One mistake I see games making, is only giving DPS this variety.
5. The ability to choose how you go through a dungeon. Finding interesting ways to pull enemies and get through a dungeon is largely what makes tanking interesting to me. Not enough to easily get lost, but enough to have choices.
Bad:
1. Complete self-sustain. DKs in WoW, Warriors in FF14...in small group content, these classes are extremely boring to heal, because they stay alive themselves. SOME self-sustain is important though; something closer to Paladin in FF14 and...well, paladin in WoW earlier on in Shadowlands (although they were a bit much then too.)
2. Long GCDs and threat. Gonna be honest, getting aggro in FF14 is not hard, but the long GCD makes tanking less enjoyable for me. Perhaps the server tick-rate is also to blame, but I won't get into that here. In WoW, I'd say tanking feels a lot better (again, 4/5 man content.)
3. Dungeons designed around obvious ways of pulling. In FF14, many dungeons are: pull 2 groups > kill > pull 2 groups > kill > boss. rinse and repeat. Don't get me wrong, I loved most FF14 dungeons, but once you've done them a couple times it becomes too formulaic. Can be said for other games as well, but FF14 takes the cake here.
4. Monsters with too many CC effects. Seeing people play New World and getting tossed around and being unable to do things properly looked like hell. I would never tank in a game like that. Make SOME monsters dangerous, but make it obvious and give tanks tools for dealing with it. In FF14 you get an anti-knockback buff. It lasts a short time and is on a 2min CD, but that can be altered to be more active.
5. Dungeons where your ability to tank doesn't make much of a difference. This ties into point 3 here. Allowing tanks to use line-of-sight and other tools to pull efficiently feels amazing, rather than dungeons where everything is literally just in the path ahead. That said, too many enemies you want to skip is also not ideal.
Ultimately, so long as shields exist, tanking should 100% be a thing. Whether you have 1 or 3 tanks should be your choice, but give 'tanks' the option to change a few things to do more DPS. Tanking Karazhan in original TBC on my gnome warrior was great, because I had a Dual-wield DPS set to switch to for a couple bosses. My DPS was still sub-par, but better than with my shield.
So...in essence:
1. Variety with tank type choice (fast/slow)
2. Variety with tank mitigation (anti-CC, magic, physical, pushback, etc...)
3. Variety with tank choice (more damage and less surv, more surv less speed/dmg, etc...)
4. Variety in ways of doing your job.
Give us tanks, but give those tanks options. That's all I'll say for now.
When I pick tank I want to feel like a Goalie in soccer or hockey or whatever.
It's traditionally a pillar of a raid/party and I think it should stay that way.
Tanks want to run around and solely be the shield for the entire unit.
When bigger units like a raid, maybe co-opporate with a few other tanks to cut some slack.
Like many people say in this discussion - Make Threat more interesting and dynamic. What i think people want when they say that is to make the boss have more AI- than NPC-thinking without taking away the feeling of being in control of the aggro.
Fighting a Dragon, one scenario:
- Starting the fight with gapclosing to gain time for threat stacking. Fight goes on for a while.
- The dragon slams its tail in anger so everyone, in the direction in the direction of the tail, falls or gets thrown backwards into the air.
- Then the dragon put its focus towards a certain player (like a controlled aggro shift) and fills its lungs with air to burst fire at the player.
- During this timeframe the tank (who maybe has been thrown away or not) has to gapclose and use a shield skill to tank the fire.
- Fire on shield = aggro goes back to the tank.
- Fight keeps going.
Also, as others have mentioned, I am a big fan of mobility and environment interaction. I don't want to just charge at a boss and stand there eating all the hits; I'd rather be able to read the room and be able to intercept an arrow that a booby-trap or an add fires off at my dos/healer and then return to the fray with the big baddie.
I realise some of these ideas have already been mentioned, but I think they still need to be tied together into a balance concept a bit more cohesively.
I come from a DAOCamelot-style RvR game without any PvE. Since everyone was spending most of their time in the game in the warzone, the one thing the game had to excel at was making PvP interesting, and that strength certainly transferred onto tanking mechanics.
The biggest thing about making tanks interesting in PvP is making them responsible for their *allies* health, rather than just the rather uninspired approach of making them very tanky themselves, and them having them threaten their enemies with CC. That's not a guardian knght in shining armour - that's essentially just a damage dealer who's been nerfed from a belligerent hornet to a really annoying bumblebee with a shell.
Give them magical shield buffs that reduce incoming AoE by 90% for 3 seconds. Let them instantly dash to allies in order to block projectiles or enemy charges. Allow shields to track ally movement automatically and turn that into a mechanic. The untapped potential for defensive tools in MMOs is extremely vast, and while yes, this turns tanks from an active fighter to a supportive protector, I really think this role of the tank has been vastly neglected in recent generations of games. Not everyone who's not a healer or the bard (and even them in recent games...) needs to have their eyes focused on the enemy for the majority of the fight. Make defence its own objective in the fight, and design roles, and skill interactions, around that idea.
I realise that the prompt is more concerned with PvE "main and off-tank" roles, but I think this idea could translate really well into all types of gameplay. Tanks having to jump back to physically cover undodgeable attacks for allies. Tanks being responsible for AoE defence buffs for the party, or covering spawning zones to prevent them to reach their allies. But while these mechanics can *translate* into PvE, I think the best way to make them interesting is to make them *work* in PvP, and then design boss mechanics around pushing them to their limits.
If you make these types of interactions the core of the tank, that means you have to balance his aggressive abilities (engage gap closers, CC, some damage), tankiness (Standard stuff) and ally protection (direct damage soaking for allies [preferably through magic; active blocking is fun, but there should also be other tools to soak damage] preventative shielding abilities [Leave reactive dispells to healers], supportive mobility, defence buffs, but also erecting obstacles for enemies)
My instinct tells me the best balancing approach to that would be to allow no more than two of that to be highly effective in one player - and preferably also make it possible to hyperfocus and completely dominate in a single one only. I imagine a squishy support tank who blocks everything but pops if he gets focused down himself could encourage extremely engaging gameplay.
1) I liked the idea that FF14 had with its different tank classes where one was supposed to be focused on raw physical damage mitigation, one was better at DPS, and one was for magical mitigation. Unfortunately the differences between these types was very minimal until you got into end level raids. With the class system of AoC, I would like to see a spectrum where a Tank/Tank be the best damage sponge at the expense of mobility/damage output, a Tank/Mage would be best for magical damage mitigation at the expense of physical, Tank/Rogue would have best CC, etc.
2) Since the combat system is hybrid, I would like tank skills to reflect this. For example, active skills (blocks in this instance) would have a short cooldown but a second or two activation but the damage they deflect is reduced the further they are from the actual attack (a block skill used right before a blow blocks most of all damage, one done a second too early blocks less than half, transferring the damage to the tank). Other skills would focus on CC and buffs. Also active blocks would generate much more hate than CC and buff abilities. A system like this would allow for A) a class that is easy to learn but hard to master,
3 ) I think that, taking a cue from Monster Hunter and rogue-likes, Tanks (and classes who use heavy armor and weapons) should move slower than someone in leather or cloth. Having a slow Tank makes the group pay attention the the boss and tank during a fight (don’t want to get out of their cone of protection) and it allows for something closer to the Rock-Paper-Scissors motif in PVP: a Tank can block a lot of damage and stun people, etc but if a Rogue can slip behind them with their higher mobility and speed, they can do a lot of damage and beat a Tank. This is compounded by differences in a Tank/Tank and a Tank/Ranger, say, who may have a quick roll or something to overcome some of the slow speed. This adds some risk and reward to the rock-paper-scissor calculation of PVP.
PvP: others have mentioned the idea of tanks being Disruptors/Initiators, charging their way into enemy lines with things in their kit that give them the ability to gap close and exert control on the battlefield (CCs, debuffs etc). This is a given imo, however I think a great use for tanks in pvp, especially at a larger scale, is the aspect of providing defense and "cover" for your group/raid. Some kind of mechanic where you provide damage reduction for teammates behind you in some kind of cone perfectly fits the roll of a "frontline" tank and adds an overall element of strategic planning for group composition in engagements. Both from a fantasy and gameplay perspective.
Sounds good.
Threat should definitely be a thing, it's most of what makes tanking interesting. Also i think it's worth experimenting with taunt being relevant in PvP.
I think a Guardian should have the ability that other tanks do not. He can hold the aggro of a boss mainly by himself, except for the occasional period when he needs a switch out. He delivers little damage, that isnt his job. But if the group does not have a Guardian, the boss could also be held by a couple of off tanks, maybe a dreadnaught and a Siren together, they also deliver damage, so take him down potentially quicker, BUT, are easier to kill/loose aggro, so they would need to work much more closely together.
tanks are great in WoW PvP from what I hear. What are ya talking about. they tend to be a well-rounded and effective class
Another tank player here. Love all the contributions already, so am not gonna write a lenghty one.
I just want to add that, at the moment, in MMOs there is one ideal Tank role. Which means AoC has a chance to define it. Different MMOs that I play (WoW, LA, NW, ...) get some aspect right, but fail at others, when it comes to tanking. In general, contributions here are legit and would resolve into a really nice tanking role.
I just want Devs / Designers to keep in mind:
All-in-all, the major issue with tanking can be that it is not 'fun to play'. It might feel slow (slow movement) or not rewarding (just being meat shield, or just running around in PvP). Nailing the fun part will win my heart
- I dont expect to be anywhere near the DPS output of a DPS class, but need to be able to get by when solo questing without feeling like Im breaking a stone with a spoon
- Threat should be a thing and for PvP it can work with an aura or skills that reduce the dps output of nearby pvp enemy
- DPS players should not be able to tank, or at least not for long. We should NEED a tank
- Other AoE skills to buff allies (Lotro captain) are appealing so a tank isnt just about soaking damage
- having some variety to tank playstyles would be good. S&B might block more but less dps, while 2H might parry rather than block but offer a little more dps, maybe need strength to carry a larger more able shield but at the consequence of less stamina/health so you could have a stamina build with more health but not as good a shield and so on.
- would like to see some active blocking if possible, so a tank might block 50% damage or 75% if you actively block (for example)
Just some thoughts.
I suppose one gripe for non-tanks has always been the dungeon queue, waiting for tanks. That is hard to get around unless you allow dps to tank, but that can remove the need for tanks so they feel less useful. Im personally not keen on being able to brute force a dungeon where 5x dps can face roll it.
Examples of desired tank skills:.
Triggered with cooldowns:
Charge: Close the distance and stun - generate threat (PVE)
Shield Bash: Interrupt and slow attack speed- generate threat (PVE) - shield ability
Warcry: AOE slow movement speed- generate threat (PVE)
Block: Active block timed by player to prevent damage from a big hit - shield ability - maybe a counter attack based on the damaged blocked would be cool.
Last stand: Less than X health, take no damage for x seconds, but can't attack or move for 3x seconds (long cooldown) - shield ability
* These kinds of skills make tanks annoying to ignore, hard to kill and gives the tank something to do in PVP since they can't deal significant damage*
Passive Skills:
Increased Block Chance: (although there's a triggered block, there should still be random blocks.)
Increased Armor Skill/Rating: Tanks get more out of the same piece of armor than other classes
Increased Shield Skill/Rating: Tanks get more out of the same shield than other classes
Increased Health Points
To sum up, making tanks annoying will create that real world "aggro" that will be effective in PVP.
As a tank I envision most people have two fantasies or something along these lines. The first being the protector of the party, the one who jumps in to save their ally from a blow that would otherwise spell their death. Think Reinhardt from overwatch, Braum from League of Legends, Newcastle from Apex Legends to name a few popular games. Putting the player between the enemy and their teammate. The second is the unkillable raid boss that gets in the enemy’s face and creates a threat that cannot be ignore, someone who will tear into the backline with kill pressure while soaking damage and heals unless they are met with an opposing titan.
I want to play and feel like the above, as someone who has tried tanking in other games but ultimately switched out, here are some things I noticed, liked, and disliked about taking on the role.
PVE
Tanking through threat was fun at first, managing your threat level and taunts while blocking and dodging enemy attacks was a fun mini game to play, but the mini game does get old and it can be hard to feel like a part of the team while playing it. Managing threat is something that is good for standard mobs, early bosses, and maybe certain phases of late game bosses, but having gameplay without threat is something that I feel would be key to attracting a lot of new tank players.
Having phases where bosses target healers, furthest player in the room, player with the lowest defense value, random player etc. this would make fights more engaging for DPS and healers as well as they might have to take evasive actions to protect themselves in fights. Tanks could also assist them by positioning themselves in the way of the charge, strike, or projectile to block them. Adding more interaction between tank players and their DPS outside of holding threat would make the role much more engaging and feel rewarding when the player makes a critical protective maneuver.
For when tanks do have to manage threat, having different tanking styles is something that adds a lot of fun to the class. Giving players the choice between a tank style that relies more on dodging attack or one that puts up a shield and eats them all was something that I enjoyed seeing.
PVP
Pvp was the worst experiences I had as a tank. I was either a target dummy sitting on a control point, a Crowd control bot, or a fly buzzing around the backline being ignored.
Holding on to a control point in siege type game modes is definitely a job that should belong to the tank. And having some gameplay where you hold your ground with your shield up while spells and projectiles fly and explode all around you can be fun when it happens at pivotal moments in the fight, but if that’s all I am doing then I am better off playing a melee DPS.
When I wasn’t sitting on a control point I always felt I couldn’t do my job. Here I am, the protector of my party, and there goes the enemy, right past me completely ignoring me. Especially in large scale fights, my damage was never enough to threaten and force them to back off as it would just be healed back up, often even trying to keep up with them in my heavy armor was a challenge. Finally, if I was able to keep up, then my only redeeming quality was crowd control, which if the enemy dodged or lived through usually spelt out a dead team member as I stood there wracking their attacker with a wet noodle.
Lastly when the enemies line was broken and it was time to charge into the enemy backline I was once again facing the issue of lacking kill pressure. Watching them continue to heal or damage other players while not even sparing me a second glance as they roll or strafe with me in tow on a wild goose chase felt humiliating. In large scale pvp i would often see tanks face one of two problems when trying to break into a backline, either the damage was too great due to the sheer number of players or the healing was so strong that playing a warrior who could soak up damage just as well as me while also actually dealing damage made me feel like my role was only in the game for pve content.
While I may not be the best player, or the greatest tank, a lot of these problems either vanished or were easier to overcome as soon as I switched over to melee DPS.
My problems may not even apply to all tank players, however to players like me who are newer to the class like me, I’m sure they have a similar experience to me. It is an experience that I hope I, and everyone else who would like to give tank a try, do not go through again in ashes.
PS. Thank you for addressing this topic and as an additional note, I would love to see more mechanics and skill demanded of tanks. I am all for, in fact in favor of, a high skill ceiling, as long as the skill floor isn’t too demanding for new players and the class never feels like it doesn’t have a place in the situation.
The things that would make tanking fun and enjoyable in PvP would also make tanking fun in PVE encounters .
That is being active and engaging.
Neither
I'd prefer a D&D combat system. By that I mean there are advantages to having ranged open up, a rogue sneak attacking, silently knocking out enemies, open with status affects, or a wizard with an AOE spell and I definitely, don't like the idea of a tank "tanking" any more than 5 npcs before enemy's head to the next player. I think if intrepid fleshes out the types of AI behavior...then they'll be able to see what type of dynamics the "classes" need to have. But I wouldn't actually start with the classes, because that limits encounters. Players have to stick with their class, but it's the encounters that change and make things interesting. If the encounters are good, then the classes by definition will have to well-made and interesting.
Tanks in group content should be appointed the normal tank role, to gather attention of the mobs or boss as well as CC from a PVE perspective, and to be a annoyance that creates openings and opportunity's for killing players in a pvp setting. As this is a 8 person party if were going off a normal setting I believe the safest and logical line up would be 2 supports, 2 tanks, 4 dps. Obviously 1 main support, 1 off support (Perfect for a bard) and 1 main tank, 1 off tank (Backup in case main tank goes down or focus on ccing adds).
Tanks in raid content - Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Depending on the raid I believe that it should be a maximum of 4 tanks. I believe the less the better and it really should come down to how well the tanks work in unison. If one person keeps pulling agro off another then its not efficient. I believe that truly there should be 2 tanks of a well put together team. 3 if they aren't experienced or the raid is a big tank check. And 4 if you truly worried. I think 4 is even pushing it.
What is an acceptable level of tank specialization? How many of our 8 tank classes should be able to main tank a boss for a raid force? If a tank cannot main tank a raid boss, what should they be able to do to make up for that?
I believe that any tank class should be able to main tank a boss its just a matter of gear and situation. It all depends on how the tank uses their augments to benefit the raid in a support way. As long as you have a primary of tank you should be able to do what a tank can do. Obviously wasting lets say a dps ability when you should be focusing on CC and Pulling enemies would be a result of a bad tank not a bad game. As long as the game gives the primary tank everything they need to perform in a raid they should be able to do so with any augment.
Tanks in PvP situations - What feels good and what doesn’t feel good about tanks in player vs player situations?
Tanks in solo situations - When soloing as a tank, what are things you like, and what are things you’d like to see us avoid.
In my personal opinion what feels great as a tank in a pvp situation is the assist role. Tanks should be able to CC/Stun/Mark enemies in PVP. Tanks should also have active blocking to keep them aware of what they are doing in PVP. However I do not wish for any active block to be like New World. You should not just sit in a pvp fight and hold right click to block. You should have benefits such as perfect blocks, or block primarily to stop a main attack like a rain of arrows and protect the people behind you. I consider tanks to be an annoyance and something similar to a wall in pvp and wars. I did see a lot of people saying well how would they balance this? In my opinion debuffs balance this, as well as gear. A tank should be able to protect their allies and themselves in wars/sieges but take a penalty if that block is broken or ability to shield others wares off.
As for thing's I would like you to avoid as well as tanks in solo situations. I don't think someone who picks a primary class of Tank should be spoon fed the ability to out damage a dps person. I believe that there should be a certain skill ceiling that allows tanks to have fun in their own right. However if you are looking to solo as a tank or do damage as a tank that is equal to a dps. I believe whole heartedly that you have picking the wrong primary. Your primary should be the dps that you are looking for and the augment should be the tank for the beefyness that you want. I believe players should be liable for picking a class especially a Tank in a game that follows the triangle. That being said, I do not believe that tanks should do no damage as a matter of fact I think augments should assist with that. I just don't think that tanks should be able to over power a DPS Main anymore then 3/10 times in a fight based on overall dps. If based on skill that depends on the player. But if were talking a 1-1 comparison on damage they should not be anywhere near a dps. Obviously Reflective damage can assist with this as well as gear and level difference. My main point is I want you to avoid making tanks a meta for arenas and wars. I want them to be useful in the way they were meant to be useful and for Berserkers or Battle Mages to be hold accountable to pick the correct primary class such as Fighter or Mage and then be required to augment into Tank for a more health kit. Taking the ability way for them to be able to be un-killable and have 2 dps classes.
Discussion of tank abilities - From your experiences in other games, what feels good, and what doesn’t, regarding a tank’s class kit?
To my best of knowledge and personal experience is the best feeling is when you feel like you made a impact. A example I gave in the discussion is, I want to feel like I just protected my party from a wipe because of blocked a fire dragon breath or I shielded my party and they were behind me. I do not want to stand in one place and be like oh wow my block stat kicked off nice! In regard to abilities the best abilities for tanks in both pve and pvp scenarios are those that can pull agro and cc enemies. I believe that it should be a tanks job to get enemies in a spot where the dps want them in order to kill them efficiently. As long as the game feels impactful and doesn't give in to some of the older systems it will be perfect. The game is coming out in lets say 2024/2025. Or even later then that. Let the new systems shine and the old systems that aren't needed die out. The game should not feel like we are being thrown back into classic WoW or runescape. It should be its own experience that we can create with our friends and be unique so that we can always remember this as another true mmorpg experience.
Thank you for reading this far, I appreciate all the players that spoke today as they had a great mindset and definitely great discussion. See you all next time!
~Gragis
1. Taking objectives
2. Holding the front line
3. Peeling for allied units
4. Providing incentive for enemy dps to target them
As the tank role whatever you guys decide to do they will be able to hold objectives. The main problem I notice for the tank role is in PVP scenarios is the lack of player decision from enemy players to want to dps down a tank. How can a tank "taunt" a player in the same way they would aggro monsters? There should be a conscious decision from players to want to target the tank. I like to imagine in a castle siege two walls of tanks constantly pushing against each other through the main gate. With player collision being a mechanic, tanks would be given a way of forming a front line that would defend both sides units. As incentive for tanks to be targeted down I believe there should be some kind of damage mitigation for the allies of a tank that originates from the tank class. This would not only discourage enemies from targeting players close to tanks but perhaps also more define the rogue class as the only class to bypass this mitigation. As to how exactly this aura would work I'll leave that in your professional hands if you choose to incorporate such an effect. I imagine tanks would have ways of mobility and cc instances in order to peel and generate threat. In conclusion, if a tank can not fulfill the four roles given in a pvp scenario effectively then it can lead to lack luster gameplay and a feeling of uselessness as you watch rangers gun down you healers and fighters cut down your rangers always leaving the tanks for last. I hope this comment helps and I wish you the best of luck! No matter your decisions I'm going to thoroughly enjoy playing tank in Alpha 2
But there are cases when I like playing Tank. I liked playing Tank in Overwatch very much. So maybe you could ome up with a system that is more like that. So the tanks have abilitys to create shields, heal themselfs, pull enemys etc and can still deal a decent mount of damage.
My question/suggestion comes around off tanking and even “alt” tanking. What I mean is in classic wow for example, warlocks had the “tank” summons that could be used as off tanks in certain scenarios. I think this is something that adds versatility to classes, and would like to see more of in group content.
As for generic off tanking, I think it’s important that an off tank can’t just be great at every encounter. A paladin in wow for example could just stack physical damage mitigation and self heals for really good self sustain when offtanking physical damage type monsters, but might get shit on without extra heal support if the monster had a different damage type. I think this is something that adds some thought to the group structure for boss encounters.
If you had a boss encounter with a duo or trio, where each had different damage types, and they healed each other, it would make for an interesting encounter of trying to off tank and keep a certain boss of the pack silenced or stunned to prevent it from healing the other boss. This is even something that can be scaled down as seen in some fun simple games like realm of the mad god. You can find mobs in the normal realm that mimic this trio aspect while leveling, and introduces the mechanics early.
I’m going to read through everything here but, I guess my main point is no one tank should be good at every encounter. Tanks should be able to specialize in a certain damage mitigation and have to rely on teamwork to be successful for bosses outside of that specialization. Warrior for damage, paladin for holy, Druid for nature, warlock summons for mage. There are a lot of different ways you can split the tank roles by damage types. multi boss encounters where the lack of an off tank or multiple off tanks can lead to a wipe offers a unique challenge you don’t see in every game, and it’s one of my favorite types of encounters for raid content.
Its sort of hard to gauge that with the lack of knowledge on the class itself and what the archtypes will bring to the table. One thing I am sort of nervous about is when you said that the archtypes wont really change the class in a huge way. While that is fine with the DPS because there are quite a few different flavors, I am worried that the difference between the different tank archtypes are going to be the color and animations of the skills. If that is the case, then I don't see a benifit of having a bunch of tanks in a fight.
Even if they do change the play style and bring other utility to the fight, I think that bringing several tanks to the fight would make a fight hard to get into. Tank players are hard to come by in MMOs these days, and while I love the decreased dungeon queue times in modern MMOs myself, I think that it could get tiresomes running around town to find tank number 4 for a fight. Plus, I have no clue what job a mass of tanks can have in this situation. Seems like a healer's nightmare.
I do like the ideas of "paper tanks" though. There have been a few MMOs in the past that did a good job of this. Having DPS, usualy mail wearing types, that could take hits decently in fights. It made things more interesting then, when the tank wipes everyone dies. Its gets a lot harder for the healer and the party, but it gives you a chance. It seems these days that mail wearing DPS classes are pretty much for cosmetics, or being able to stand in mechanics better than others which seems a waste.