The bottom line is: Threat/tanking system options are limited by how damage is calculated and executed.
If AOC's combat damage system is calculated the same as traditional MMO's then WoW-esque threat model is the only option that has been proven to work over decades but it's a compromise on what could be. I have bigger dreams for AoC but I come from ignorance as I don't have access nor have I read any documents on how it works.
In the traditional combat system threat is just a value against each combatant, tied to damage or threat abilities usually. Highest value generally has threat. Your value goes above tank, you pull agro. Very simple.
However...a far more interesting system would be if damage was considered more like a projectile, with a coordinate and radius/shape, then threat become less important and things like line of sight, shield volume/strength, positioning and group damage mitigation become additional factors. I guess you could liken it to the difference between 2D and 3D shapes.
The established MMO's are using proven systems for their damage calculation method, and even if you don't like it, it's usually the lesser evil and we just gotta move on...but if damage is calculated in XYZ, it might be my time to play a Tank again.
It also helps with the PVE vs PVP argument that keeps coming up. Maybe I've just wasted my time writing this, will read more about how AoC is designed and edit if required.
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FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would prefer to get away from the traditional way of thinking of tanks by changing the AI to a utility based AI that forces us to rethink the holy trinity. I wrote about this back in 2013 with regards to EverQuest Next and Storybricks.
Once AI becomes smart it will know to kill the healer because that is it's best chance at survival. Will this do away with the idea of a tank? No. But it most definitely will change how a tank plays. It will change how all of the holy trinity plays. So until we get to this point, tanks are a recycle of old ways, which is the same for healers, and dps as well.
Specific to your question I would prefer for things to stay as they are for one reason: finding tanks is as hard as finding healers and if you create encounters that require multiple tanks (outside of large raids) we will run into a shortage real quick.
I think tanks have to deal some damage to not be ignored, and they have to be a reliable source of cc in pvp, spaming harden skills while dealing some damage is not fun, mostly they should be able to disable enemies to deal damage to them, but playing against shouldn't be a "they made me go afk, i couln't move till i as almost dead" scenario
There are two games that nailed tanking, Tera and lost ark.
Tank skills should be designed to motivate the player to play the class like a “tank” and the player should be rewarded when it’s done correctly. This can be achieved by tying damage his utility skills ,
Lost ark approached this in a clever way, it made tanks a dps class with a caveat. All your damage comes from playing the class like a good tank:
+% damage to frontal attacks
+% damage when shielded
+%damage based on damage absorbed
Shields regenerate from taunting
Taunt is very short but refills % from shields , gives +%dmg output to all part members for 5 seconds ( opener) and interrupts certain skills.
You are forced to be in the mobs face, you are forced to position, you are forced to tank the damage, you are forced to taunt and your are forced to be as annoying as possible in pvp if you want to do some dmg. Actually even your dmg skills are activated from dmg taken.
They made the class valuable in terms of dps and valuable in pvp. Tanks in pvp are ignored until the end in most games. But with a system that makes you valuable you are a priority like everyone else.
Tank skills shouldn’t be 2 rows that are disconnected from each other with one row completely useless in pvp. They should be a full system built around the play style of the class.
We need to move away from the traditional idea or tanking. A tanks job in pve should be to take the dmg and output dmg. Not an agro manager, not a spam taunt machine, and not turn the boss around so dps can hit him in the ass. Agro is part of the game mechanics and the agro should switch to all player and you as a player need to use your utility to manage said agro. Archer doge, sin vanish, sorc but your bubble up. I wish ashes would take a page from lost ark. Everyone has a role but ultimately you are responsible for your own survival. The agro rotates constantly and everyone needs to adapt instead of standing behind the boss and dpsing him in the back.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Positioning mechanics (range and direction from target), multiple ways to be useful such as granting defense to people that are close behind me, putting up barriers to shield my party, lowering a boss’ movement (maybe with a chainhook or something), drawing aggro of course, etc
And +1 to everything Lashing said in the very first reply on page 1.
-Illusion ability
-At least one of the secondary archetypes might use some kind of illusions. It could be an interesting threat ability to simply make a target ally look like the tank to trick the mob. This would have dual purpose in that it might also have a use in PvP.
I really like this one. Since you look like the other player, any threat generated while the illusion is active is immediately transferred to the caster when it expires. Dual purpose of reducing threat of the target and increasing your own. And as you said, it's also viable in PvP simply for the visual.
Dev Discussion - Tank Participation
Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
I'd like to see multiple tanks in a team being usable, perhaps in some way a meta.
I played tank in RL for 30 years (sword and board, SCA) and NEVER used 'taunt' once.
Thinking back on it, I used the tools I had at the right times to affect the battle.
Some ideas:
CC is critical for PvP tanks. It should be fast and short. GW2 style 1/4 and 1 second interrupts. If there is a long cool down, these are near useless, but if spammable, they become ANNOYING in PvX. To balance, the cooldown should be on ATTACK skills. If you are spam tanking, you shouldn't be spanking as well.
I like the idea of conal damage reduction. But in reverse. So the front of the tank would be the pointy end and somewhere behind the tank would be the wide end. Anyone standing in the cone receives damage mitigation.
Roadblocking. Does AoC have personal collision checking? If not, tanks should have the 'Wall' augmentation. "None shall pass" and all that. And a skill or 2 that blocks all players.
I think 'aggro' should be based on CC and modified by damage and healing. IE, constantly preventing the mob from executing should make the CCer priority target #1, with more intelligent mobs understanding healing is also bad.
Gap closers with interrupts.
If spamming interrupts can cause 'lockdown', then after X spams, all spam skills go on cooldown. Yep, this could leave a tank with nothing but utility skills for a few seconds. WHEN you use your skills should be the high skill part, not if you can use them.
I believe bosses should have mixed experiences with anywhere between 1 and 3 tanks needing to be active at a time to manage Adds/Main Boss and Mini-Bosses but the bosses should be structured on the encounter itself and not force roles to be added for no known reason. I believe 40 man groups should be able to field 1-3 tanks 5-9 healers and fill with DPS dependent on the mechanics that need to be completed, multiple tank/healer and DPS classes should be BiS in different encounters to allow Multi-classers the ability to shine in these situations alongside guilds that are wanting a more difficult PvE experience.
I could see it going in several ways for tanks. I think regardless of how its done, there needs to be some very fun mechanics and also a strong feeling of progression that goes along with the tanking role. Similar to how dps and healers can FEEL the impact of their chr development and gear progression through putting out bigger numbers.
Some MMO's can get stuck with boring tank mechanics that feel largely the same in strength whether you are leveling or end game. Sure you might be able to mitigate more damage but that can seem very passive and easily lost in the scheme of things.
I am not sure how several tanks would work.. All the MMORPG's I have played usually only one main tank or at most 2 mains 1 off tank or two for dividing dps both against players and towards players. My only concern is scalability that if you can't get seven tanks i would hope there is a way to build your team differently to make up for less tanks via efficiency. Also finding 7 good tanks or tanks in genral can be iffy so it may make it difficult to make/find groups. Perhaps a role of support could be to boost a normal non-tank class to be able to tank at a decreased efficiency but still tanky enough with good heals. I'd be for as many tanks as anyone wants as long as we are not forced to go this route...
My experience of tank comes from the later patches of ArcheAge and this is what I would love to see in a tank from a Raid v Raid perspective.
1. BIG AoE Crowd Control - I want one tank to be able to lockdown 10-15 players if they play really well (or the enemy mis-steps) 2. Taunts - Force enemy players within X range to target the tank, especially useful for stopping enemy healers targetting and saving their team mates 3. The suck (or blow) - Watching a tank disapear into the enemy raid and then watch them pull all enemy players within 10 meters (as an example), lock them down, then blast them with the rest of the raid is something so satisfying to see and is definitely something I want to be able to use as a tool in AoC 4. Interupts (cancel enemy casts) - not much to say about this... 5. CC immunity - tanks are of course going to be the people getting the brunt of enemy attacks, having an ability which gives a small amount of time with cc immunity to either jump in and get a perfect engage, or use it to escape an enemy zerg would be great to see
Finally, one thing that I've seen a lot of in ArcheAge is that tanks (when using their main spec), cannot farm or progress nearly as easily as any other classes. I would love to see this as a non, or at least lesser issue in this game. I genuinely believe that instead of buffing PvE damage numbers or making a tank deal X% as much of a dps is irrelevant, the only way to balance these out is to build a system that means running a well balanced party is the most optimal / efficient method for progressing.
Generally speaking, in most MMOs, you only need a few tanks per raid and per dungeon. This very often leads to tanks being an undesirable class to play, because tank slots are limited and therefore not many people playing tanks.
This brings the issue of tank shortage, which MMOs can struggle with (particularly World of Warcraft in dungeons and low difficulty Raids).
Now if you can have more tanks than your usual main tank + 1 or 2 off-tanks (without them being a detriment to your group), in both dungeons and raids, this makes playing a tank role a lot more attractive and also makes it easier for groups to find tanks.
I am mainly talking about the role of the tank here, but since I assume the class "Tank" is the only class that can have the role of a tank, I guess these 2 can be used interchangeably.
One of the major things about Tank roles, is that it really gives that position a sense of Identity. Generally, having a tank role will allow you to make way more player dynamic responses than the developers intend. Crowd control, positioning, even personal identification. Some people love feeling like they can protect others or that THEY can be the savior in this fight. Holding on for dear life til the very end while just barely ticking away at the boss's life.
Off tanking also allows the tank, to get a bit of a break to heal, get ready for new positions, or even partake in other needed mechanics for the fight.
I think it's generally important to have both of these roles in the game, but at the same time implementing a design without the traditional roles could be enough, if it is enough to achieve a good trade off.
I would like to see tanks generally in function (not strictly archetype or class - thanks for the clarification.) I also would like for there to be many situations where more than one tank is valuable or is incentivized (like it lowers the ceiling of difficulty by circumventing part of the mechanics [taunt swap, buffs that are broken up by breaking the teams apart, etc.])
From a healing perspective, I really enjoy healing tanks the most and small scale party healing the most. So, I have a bias to want to see them play a more prominent role in combat generally.
However, how someone fills this role and the fact there's only one tank class is a concern I can't ignore during these pitch. It means that archetypes that include tank hopefully will provide the ability (or something else) for others to fill this role.
Generally though, from a design perspective, I would think people fitting this role would ideally move away from the class especially but archetypes too. How we do this could be also achieved by gear choice or augment choices to a lesser extent. Or, to a lesser extent, augment and gear choice.
The goal should be to make the barrier to entry to be low. However, that degree of commitment (risk) should be rewarded with efficacy (reward.)
To long to read: Yes to multiple tanks or specializations.
SPICING UP MECHANICS AND TIMING - you snooze you loose
- Targeting healers that are high on over healing tanks or certain group members -> making them a target of interest
- Targeting DPS that are often hit by AoE that can be avoided by correct timing or movement, will be targeted more often by the AoE, as most likely they weren't punished enough or the initial damage is too easy to sustain.
- Targeting Caster DPS that are too close to the boss after a movement phase (engage squishy)
- Targeting Squishy Mele DPS that are getting in the Arc of sweep or Infront of the boss whilst they should have been in the bosses back (dealing extra damage)
- Big blows - e.g. ''hulk smash'' by our big buddy the cyclops - off tanks or higher HP / defence geared players need to run in to help ''absorb'' the blow for the tank and squishiest needs to run away from the hit as it could cripple them for X amount of time and make them vulnerable whilst they are also looking like the losers that didn't manage to dodge THE hulk smash.
- Tank/Off tanks moving infront of the boss and blocking by creating a short time shield wall to block a fired ranged attack to prevent raid wide wipe mechanic like stacking debuff or bleeds to all ranged dps that got hit and receive these DOTS.
I think, timing, movement, boss placement and off-tanks / multiple tanks for big bosses should be there as that was the fun part for me playing as a tank.
Make the element of timing critical, the better you can time it - the longer you may DPS, the later the raid moves - the quicker the boss dies, the higher the loot - whilst making it a higher risk if executed poorly.
Of course you shouldn't make timing as important as what Elden Ring did to the Malenia fight, but the whole timing aspect and anticipation of certain abilities makes the PvE content engaging.
If you can master it, you will become the legend or group of legends.
- Healers Timing Heals, Squishy Timing Dodges, Tanks Timing ''Heroic'' Blocks or Absorbs
- Whilst being punished for not paying attention
There is only one tank Class in Ashes of Creation - If you want people to play this role, and not end up having an unbalanced low number of tanks in the server this class Needs to get some love.
A tank Should actually TANK. Under no circumstances a DPS should be able to kill a tank 1v1 in PvP with similar gear - a Tank should have enough damage mitigation to feel like a tank, to make a DPS not want to engage and a fight between tanks or tank vs healer should be a stalemate.
Tanks should be the initiators in PvP with gap closers and AoE CCs, and have the option through augments to specialise in a little more damage, CC or mitigation
Active blocking should be a thing, active blocking should block 100% of incoming Frontal damage up to a certain amount and then put the shield on a 15 or 30s cooldown - passive block should Always be in place and it would work as normal when the tank is not using active block, tank should be the only class with higher blocking % stats
skills that reflect incoming damage should also make up a good part of the damage done by tanks,
remember, if the tank has low damage, it needs to make it up by actually Tanking, having lots of AoE CCs, pulls, gap closers and all the love needed so it won't be like every other game where 2% of the playerbase plays a tank
#1 On the PVE side
On the PVE side I don't know much so I can't offer much. Personally I just think that since there is only one tank archetype for players to choose from, each subclass option of the tank should offer enough that bringing side tanks could be a valid strategy. Say there is a boss fight with multiple ads, you could get the nightshield to tank the ads who do physical dmg because they have increased dodge while sending the spellshield to tank the spellcasters due to their own utility. (I know the topic said tank class wasn't the subject of the discussion, I am just using it for example). Just enough variation in the classes where bringing multiple tanks of varying classes would benefit the group, instead of one tank being enough and they are always playing tank/tank because that is the best.
I also believe tanks should be able to DPS to a good degree. It doesn't feel great to just be a meatshield who can do no dmg these days. Give the tanks something to do, for example in FFXIV if a tank can do their rotation correctly they can do as much if not more dmg than a DPS for their burst. This can give incentive for tank players to play well on top of taking dmg.
#2 On the side of PVP
Tanks should have a reason to participate in PVP. I don't think tanks should be as good as DPS or better in PVP, else there is no reason to be a DPS because a tank is just the same but with more mitigation. How ever tanks should have the utility that neither tank or healer have in PVP to fulfill a niche that makes them vital to bring them.
Some MMOs just make tanks a meatshield in PVP too, and have little dmg to do anything. This just makes a tank feel like nothing but an objective blocker, and no one has a reason to hit the tank because they wont die and the DPS slowly will. A good example of giving tank utility for PVP can be seem in FFXIV or SWTOR. In FFXIV each tank has either a stun, dmg increase, sheer invulnerability, or pulls to help a team win. They have unique attributes which make bringing a tank to PVP worth while and a benefit to the team, they have a reason to be in the team. As for SWTOR i'm going to use it as an explanation for my next topic.
#3 Give tanks a unique system/minigame
For this example I will talk about the Guard system in SWTOR and how it made tanks unique and needed in ALL contents. My point in this part is to describe how a system of SWTOR made tanks viable for all types of play, and my hope that Ashes can also have this type of mechanic in some form or fashion. I would hate for tanks to be purely good at PVE but they are boring , and when it comes to PVP they can only sit and watch as the caravan dies.
The tank classes in SWTOR have a unique form of threat manipulation and damage mitigation in the form of their taunts and their guard. If a tank guarded a player they would take 50% less damage and generate less threat if within X range of the tank. This lasted forever unless the tank put the guard on another player. And the taunts of a tank would force NPCs to attack the player, but they also had the mechanic where if the taunted target hit another player during the debuff of the taunt, they would deal less damage to the other players hit.
In PVE the benefits where obvious. Bringing two tanks meant you can give two guards to two different players so they would never peel off the aggro. Traditionally this could go on a healer but if you had a DPS who was going to pump serious numbers and generate more aggro than the tank, they could guard the player to halve their aggro generation. Alternatively they could use guard and their taunts during AOE mechanics to limit the damage the raid team took and reduce the load the healers have to take on their shoulders.
In PVP tanks where always in every match or arena and they were always a viable strategy and fun class to play. They had tankiness to always survive, and they didn't have insane damage (until the balance was destroyed by the devs, but not the point). They where the perfect objective players however, because each of the tanks brought enough utility where they could carry the game with well place stuns, pulls, and knockbacks while holding back the enemy. But the guard system was where they thrived and became special. Any time a tank through a guard on an ally, the healers would have enough time to heal the player to full due to the 50% dmg mitigation, but it was also up to the tank to play smart because they took that extra 50% dmg. A tank PVP match would see them guard swapping on any player nearby who would be dying faster than the healers could save them and then taunting the enemy DPS to flat reduce the % of damage dealt. By the end of the match a tank could be just as useful as a healer, and when the numbers where shown a good tank could have prevented more damage than the healer even healed.
#4 In conclusion
My rant about SWTOR tanks was to try and show how a unique mechanic for tanks could dramatically increase tank participation in all forms of content. I know the topic was in regards to PVE encounters but I feel PVP should also be looked at. To often tanks are just a PVE class and even then they are a dull role to play. My hope is that tanks will be more than just meatshields, and there should be enough reason to bring more than one tank because I fear only one tank being needed will just result in the meta tank being brought.
Hello Glorious Ashes community. Hello Steven or should I say Sorcerer.
I must ask another question before I can respond to this one. Is Ashes of Creation going to follow the currently prevalent tanking motif in which you absorb damage from enemies and focus on an invisible force or "threat meter"... or are we going to see a lot more interesting and active system where tanks do far more influencing the fight than "managing a threat meter"? My answer to the posed question differs for each I'll explain why.
#1 - Traditional Tanking - Managing Threat
Unless you have "tank-buster" or "tank-swap" mechanics, I don't think you even need an off tank if we're using the "tried and true" threat meter scenario. The reason is that playing as a discount DPS while also failing to be the Tank you were designed to be is immensely frustrating.
Having said that, I definitely see a possibility for off tanks in a more "conventional fashion" in the ashes system. If you ask me, it's just a feature of the way the game is designed. Tank as a secondary class should be used by players if an off tank is required or exists. I am aware that tank as a primary is the only way you will be able to "tank," however I disagree that this should be the only way to "tank".
While it still feels like I'd be a discount DPS or whatever my primary role is, this resolves two issues.
The first is Players who want to play tank as a secondary role actively choose to be the "off tank," therefore it makes sense that they would acquire some additional defensive skills and, at the very least, advantages to threat generation while maintaining their Primary role in the party.
The second is that it supports both enquired-about playing philosophies. If there is a "Main tank" with "8 class options" and any other major class can adopt "tank" as a secondary duty to be a "off tank" with "8 possibilities," then there are two possible scenarios. The group composition for your bigger raids and dungeons becomes more flexible.
#2 Combat Controller - Active Tanking
This approach, or way of thinking, has to be used in more games, in my opinion. Threat meters and the like are purposely excluded for the most part in D&D and TTRPGs. This overused, incredibly clumsy system needs to be eliminated because it breaks the immersion, among other reasons.
These forum posts on active tanking and how to manage combat without a threat meter contain some pretty great ideas. And I find it absurd that a BFM would single out a certain user just because they shout at it the most.
Being able to protect your comrades in battle or draw attention to yourself is crucial, and this is perhaps why the "tank position" is so named. However, there are countless, hardly explored, better methods to portray this in our medium, being video games.
Getting off the soap box...
I believe that any number of tanks could be deployed depending on the player's preference and the available content if you place less emphasis on "keeping aggro" with a threat meter and more emphasis on preventing allies from suffering damage or eliminating the option for a target to hit anyone other than you through precise control of the area in which combat is taking place.
Maybe I'm really out of touch, and I'm the only one who finds that playstyle enjoyable.
However, I believe that tanks have suffered in the terrible mesh of pve and pvp balance for far too long.
To make it more accessible to more players and for purposes other than just learning my rotation and holding aggro—because I can't make a mistake or everyone dies—the idea of what a tank "IS" has to change.
But until then just give me some more control-like active abilities and shove that threat meter down our throats again...
In conclusion, it is possible to attain and balance both the playstyles of (One main and one off tank) or (Several tanks). But tread lightly if you want it to be significant and interesting.
In many MMOs tanking as a role often follows a very predictable and tiresome formula, and it feels like there are only a few ways they're utilised. Either the MT just holds aggro for 90% of the fight whilst the OT swaps off for the occasional tankbuster, they switch back and forth based on stacks, or the OT takes adds while the MT takes the boss. I think there is much more potential in the role than these simple tasks that seem to inform 90% of fight design in modern MMOs, and often this delegation results in a very samey feeling between encounters.
I'd love to see a game in which your choice of tanks is as flexible and strategic as your choice of healers or dps. In some games, it's not uncommon to debate between an extra healer vs extra dps - I'd like to see this same attitude extend to tanks, which are often instead delegated to two mandatory slots, with no reason to bring more and no option to bring less. I'd like to see encounters in which you stand to benefit from bringing additional tanks, where clever and skilled players can utilise their tools to bring less, and where the mechanics promote a flexible approach to group composition.
With tank as one of the 8 base archetypes, and summoner purportedly having the flexibility to fill any role in the trinity, a balanced group will already have the tools to approach encounters with versatility. Considering only primary archetypes, and assuming an even number of each, an 8 man group would have 1-2 tanks, a 16 man group would have 2-4, and 40 man groups would have 5-10.
This already lends itself to tanks having a greater presence in groups, but the real potential doesn't come to light until you consider secondary archetypes. Players who choose tank as their secondary archetype could be given the tools to perform some functions of a tank, without stepping on the toes of those with a primary tank-role archetype. Even though archetypes don't add new skills, it'd certainly still be possible to give said 'tank secondary' players enhanced mitigation and some threat management (such as limited 'taunts' that allow them to hold aggro and use their tools for a time) as augments of existing skills. This would also add to composition flexibility - it's no secret that tanks are often the least-played role in games that follow the holy trinity, so allowing 'tank secondary' players to perform some limited duties of the role would serve to reduce restrictions in composition.
Between tank-primaries, summoner-primaries, and tank-secondaries, and even with the knowledge that tank is often underrepresented in holy trinity MMOs, there are still myriad tools for groups to handle additional tanking responsibilities beyond that of a typical MT/OT pairing. To make use of these additional tools, there's an element of encounter design that often goes underutilised in other modern MMOs; multi-target encounters and adds. Neither needs to be omnipresent in all encounters, but either (or both) present in a given encounter would serve not only to add some variety in combat, but also variety in the value of different compositions. There are many more potential answers to the question of encouraging multiple tanks, but this is what I find to be the most simple.
In conclusion, I think offering variety in approach and composition is necessary to make the archetype system rewarding, and with tank as its own archetype, it deserves to be valued and considered as much as any other. It'd be discouraging to feel, as a tank, that my archetype is worthless past the second, even in 40-man content. It'd be discouraging to feel, as a summoner, that my flexibility is devalued by the knowledge that I'll never need to tank if we already have two players in that role. And it'd be discouraging to feel that, as *any* primary archetype, taking tank as my secondary archetype is a poor choice, that doesn't benefit my group.
Dev Discussion - Tank Participation
Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Why choosing one? You could make both very easy.
How?
No matter how big the Group of Players is 8 or 40, you could make always enough to do for more than one tank.
In a group of 8 you could have two tanks coordinating or one main tank and two off tanks. Two offtanks could do the job of one tank when we talk about ads or so.
The main question i have in mind at this topic is:
What would be the logic of having Tank-spec as your second archetype if you cant offtank with it?
Getting less Damage as a DD or Healer? Why? To compensate for the mistakes of the Tank? Shouldnt plan with that or be the main reason to choose something like that as second archetype. Its easier to get a better tank than speccing the hole group to tank-second.
Or how about getting tank-second archetype for pvp?
Why? Having more mobility or CC is always more effective.
So if you want the players to not ignore the tank as second archetype completely then i think you need something like offtanks. Simply make them weaker tanks but with other abilitys. Some CC, some avoiding of damage, some debuffs, some pets of the summoner who can tank, some healing yourself through your damage and so on....
And then you can combine that with more main tanks in bigger raids, and what you get is an interesting fight with different roles and not just 2 or 3 main tanks who stand around and only have to watch to not stand in the fire.
As for PVP:
I think the most interesting system is one like rock-paper scissors.
How?
Melee should be the one who can kill range-dds easier.
Range DDs need mobility and/or CC to avoid that.
Range DDs should be good in killing Tanks, even when Tanks have good gap-closing and some CC tricks.
And Tanks should be the ones who can kill melees easier. How?
Tanks could do lets say 70% of the damage of a full DD but would only get 50% of the damage of a DD. And with some CC they could get even less. With that the Tanks wouldnt feel useless in pvp as it is often in other MMOs. So everyone has someone to hunt and someone from whom they are hunted.
Healers? Give them 50-70% damage of a DD and some CC. If you are playing better than the DD, you can heal in fight sometimes and win the fight against a DD.
If the DD is better, then he could use his CCs on you in the right moment, an you die.
Tank vs Healer in pvp?
This would work for both if the Tank has more CC than a DD.
DD kills with more Damage and Tank kills slower but with more CC.
Healer kills both with damage as a tank and CC as a DD, but he has the big bonus of healing himself, if he is not interrupted.
So it would be something like that:
Tank: 70% dmg dealt / 100% CC / 50% damage income
DD: 100% dmg dealt / 70% CC / 100% damage income
Healer: 70% dmg dealt / 70% CC / 100% damage income / Heals
As for group pvp i have one idea for the taunt ability:
In pve it is clear what it does. In pvp if you taunt some player, then this player should see some obvious sign from that tank, that he was taunted.
This could make two things:
You deal lets say 20% less damage on other enemies but 20% more damage on that tank for lets say 10 seconds. With that a tank could help his healer in pvp against dds but at the same time the tank has to be carefull because now the dd has a better reason to attack that tank.
This could be described ingame as: "The Tank who taunted you irritates you so that it is more difficult to concentrate on other enemies, but with your anger or rage against this tank you can make more damage on him for a short time."
This mechanic could be used much more with other abilities as a buff/debuff system in pvp.
In general I think I prefer systems that allow for a wide variety of class configurations and isn't completely and totally dependent on a very rigid party structure. It creates a lot more variety with how you approach challenges in a game when you can get creative, and have that be viable.
I hoped to address the second part of your question, though somewhat concisely, as it's one I feel quite passionate about. I absolutely love multi-tank fights, but my biggest concern is the difficulty of filling multiple traditional tank roles as a raid leader. (Four Horsemen, anyone?) What I always found captivating was when game designers find ways to take non-traditional tank classes and make them fill a tank role in certain encounters. Example: mage tanks, mechanics that aggro the boss to a non-tank player, or even just large-scale trash kiting during an encounter. I don't mean to push the scale so far in the direction that class identity is muddied and every class should be able to tank, but instead I hope to see Intrepid design such a variety in their boss encounters that it affords a class the opportunity to be a starring role in the fight.
A tank Should actually TANK. Under no circumstances a DPS should be able to kill a tank 1v1 in PvP with similar gear -
Room temperature IQ take. Jesus christ. Why on earth would a tank beat a Mage who has 10x more damage or a Ranger who has 3x more movement and should probably be able to kite them to death? I name those just to give an example. A tank should be able to TANK and FRONTLINE. That doesn't mean that automatically Tank should be the best 1 v 1 class. LMAO, how do people vote for such a dumb comment? Dear LORD
I can literally make the same arguement for any class.
Here: A Mage should ACTUALLY DEAL DAMAGE. Under no circumstance a Tank class should be able to kill a Mage 1v1 in PvP because the Mage will always have the far far superior damage with similar gear.
There you go. That's how nonsensical you sound
Tanks are supposed to have amazing damage mitigation skills, allowing them to survive what other classes cannot. That doesn't mean that TANK should beat everything 1 v 1. I don't know why you'd even suggest that.
IMO, Tanks should feel tanky/beefy even with lower gear, because they're playing a Tank. But as a drawback, not much movement and obviously not much damage. Obviously some class combos can make up for the damage or the movement somewhat. That's about it. Tanks SHOULD be required for raids and hopefully more than one Tank at a time.
I have been playing MMOs since 2004. I mainly played World of Warcraft, which had typical tank mechanics at the time. You where either tank/ off-tank, and you didn't have any other tanks.
I have played many other MMO's since my time with World of Warcraft (I quit that MMO after Wrath of the Lich King), and seen the multiple ways that tanks can be played. I have however found my self more in a traditional mind set, as it doesn't cause a lot of confusion.
However, this isn't a typical game. I am curious what you guys can pull out of your bag of tricks. I would like to see this in Alpha 2. I would like to try out these methods more than just discuss it. Who knows maybe I'll like multiple tanks on the field as it will give tanks a better ability to be helpful in a dungeon. However, this would raise more questions like.. How many tanks is to many tanks?
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Wizard_BeardMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
check out tanking in Warhammer Online...it's the only game with PVP where i could play a tank and feel valuable in pvp....you had skills to shield allies (as in running in front of them and blocking and would reduce the damage of people standing within a cone area behind you) could place guards on single targets (not necessary in action combat with actual projectiles and collision but could still be used, in high mobile actiony combat would prefer that to be like a smaller aoe area that encourages tanks to actually play bodyguard for certain classes
...could form tank walls at castle door breaches and the like. would like the tanks could be mobile and dash in front of squishies and the like to intercept projectiles like fireballs, channeled beams, arrows, etc. abilities to use threat skills on players that reduce damage done by affected targets if not attacking the tank...so only debuffs the players/enemies if they aren't attacking the tank...this negates the instant result of oh, i see a healer, all dps focus them and blow them up in seconds...creates better variables in who is targeted on the battlefield, specially in large group combat....
I will likely have a Tank/Mage main in Ashes (and very, very likely a Summoner/Tank if it plays like I think it might), so I appreciate this discussion and I'm glad I didn't miss it.
My biggest worry with being a tank is the reliance on PvP in this game. PvP is an area where tanks are usually underserved mechanically. You can't really taunt enemy players, unless it's a ]debuff. Warhammer Online tried this, but that game was fraught with other issues. Neverwinter also had a taunt-like mechanic that worked on players - modelled slightly on 4th Edition D&D.
I want and expect the subclass to matter in how the tank performs its job. I expect a Tank/Mage (ice augments) to be more crowd control based than pure mitigation. I also expect certain other roles that sub tank to be able to perform the role decently in PvE (a Summoner/Tank should have a decent tank pet, and a Rogue/Tank could be an evasion tank like the Ninja/Warrior is in FF11 and FF14) even if those roles aren't normally primarily Tanks (if it is instead, as many say, is 'just a little bit of survivability' than why bother making that your class? It's dead in the water as a concept unless it is a meaningful choice)
There is a lot of good feedback so far. My 2 cents is that I feel there should be several tanks, so combat can take advantage of different class skills and the strategy that comes with that -in combat experiences. If we go the way of traditional 1 tank kinda deals. We should make sure bonus xp from (Damage Taken) is given, to incentivize tank roles
you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fightings?
Both depending on the boss or activity as long it is a very active gameplay, what i mean is (even with all the memes) i tanked i all major mmos today and the one i love the most was new world. Yes i loved having to manually block certain skills and even dodge some bigger hits. I loved how the gems added the aggro and taunt mechanics to the skills, and tank shouldnt be only with sword/axe/mace and shield but also two handed weapons. (Obviously with each one having their strenghts and weaknesses)
I will play as tank in this game, i just dont want fall a sleep while tanking. Just ad loadouts for builds and gear a let me viable in PvE and PvP trough CC or buffs and blocking damage to the party and i will be an happy gamer.
Comments
If AOC's combat damage system is calculated the same as traditional MMO's then WoW-esque threat model is the only option that has been proven to work over decades but it's a compromise on what could be. I have bigger dreams for AoC but I come from ignorance as I don't have access nor have I read any documents on how it works.
In the traditional combat system threat is just a value against each combatant, tied to damage or threat abilities usually. Highest value generally has threat. Your value goes above tank, you pull agro. Very simple.
However...a far more interesting system would be if damage was considered more like a projectile, with a coordinate and radius/shape, then threat become less important and things like line of sight, shield volume/strength, positioning and group damage mitigation become additional factors. I guess you could liken it to the difference between 2D and 3D shapes.
The established MMO's are using proven systems for their damage calculation method, and even if you don't like it, it's usually the lesser evil and we just gotta move on...but if damage is calculated in XYZ, it might be my time to play a Tank again.
It also helps with the PVE vs PVP argument that keeps coming up. Maybe I've just wasted my time writing this, will read more about how AoC is designed and edit if required.
Once AI becomes smart it will know to kill the healer because that is it's best chance at survival. Will this do away with the idea of a tank? No. But it most definitely will change how a tank plays. It will change how all of the holy trinity plays. So until we get to this point, tanks are a recycle of old ways, which is the same for healers, and dps as well.
Specific to your question I would prefer for things to stay as they are for one reason: finding tanks is as hard as finding healers and if you create encounters that require multiple tanks (outside of large raids) we will run into a shortage real quick.
Tank skills should be designed to motivate the player to play the class like a “tank” and the player should be rewarded when it’s done correctly. This can be achieved by tying damage his utility skills ,
Lost ark approached this in a clever way, it made tanks a dps class with a caveat. All your damage comes from playing the class like a good tank:
+% damage to frontal attacks
+% damage when shielded
+%damage based on damage absorbed
Shields regenerate from taunting
Taunt is very short but refills % from shields , gives +%dmg output to all part members for 5 seconds ( opener) and interrupts certain skills.
You are forced to be in the mobs face, you are forced to position, you are forced to tank the damage, you are forced to taunt and your are forced to be as annoying as possible in pvp if you want to do some dmg. Actually even your dmg skills are activated from dmg taken.
They made the class valuable in terms of dps and valuable in pvp. Tanks in pvp are ignored until the end in most games. But with a system that makes you valuable you are a priority like everyone else.
Tank skills shouldn’t be 2 rows that are disconnected from each other with one row completely useless in pvp. They should be a full system built around the play style of the class.
We need to move away from the traditional idea or tanking. A tanks job in pve should be to take the dmg and output dmg. Not an agro manager, not a spam taunt machine, and not turn the boss around so dps can hit him in the ass. Agro is part of the game mechanics and the agro should switch to all player and you as a player need to use your utility to manage said agro. Archer doge, sin vanish, sorc but your bubble up. I wish ashes would take a page from lost ark. Everyone has a role but ultimately you are responsible for your own survival. The agro rotates constantly and everyone needs to adapt instead of standing behind the boss and dpsing him in the back.
And +1 to everything Lashing said in the very first reply on page 1.
I really like this one. Since you look like the other player, any threat generated while the illusion is active is immediately transferred to the caster when it expires. Dual purpose of reducing threat of the target and increasing your own. And as you said, it's also viable in PvP simply for the visual.
I'd like to see multiple tanks in a team being usable, perhaps in some way a meta.
Thinking back on it, I used the tools I had at the right times to affect the battle.
Some ideas:
CC is critical for PvP tanks. It should be fast and short. GW2 style 1/4 and 1 second interrupts. If there is a long cool down, these are near useless, but if spammable, they become ANNOYING in PvX. To balance, the cooldown should be on ATTACK skills. If you are spam tanking, you shouldn't be spanking as well.
I like the idea of conal damage reduction. But in reverse. So the front of the tank would be the pointy end and somewhere behind the tank would be the wide end. Anyone standing in the cone receives damage mitigation.
Roadblocking. Does AoC have personal collision checking? If not, tanks should have the 'Wall' augmentation. "None shall pass" and all that. And a skill or 2 that blocks all players.
I think 'aggro' should be based on CC and modified by damage and healing. IE, constantly preventing the mob from executing should make the CCer priority target #1, with more intelligent mobs understanding healing is also bad.
Gap closers with interrupts.
If spamming interrupts can cause 'lockdown', then after X spams, all spam skills go on cooldown. Yep, this could leave a tank with nothing but utility skills for a few seconds. WHEN you use your skills should be the high skill part, not if you can use them.
Thank You for asking us for our opinions.
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Some MMO's can get stuck with boring tank mechanics that feel largely the same in strength whether you are leveling or end game. Sure you might be able to mitigate more damage but that can seem very passive and easily lost in the scheme of things.
1. BIG AoE Crowd Control - I want one tank to be able to lockdown 10-15 players if they play really well (or the enemy mis-steps)
2. Taunts - Force enemy players within X range to target the tank, especially useful for stopping enemy healers targetting and saving their team mates
3. The suck (or blow) - Watching a tank disapear into the enemy raid and then watch them pull all enemy players within 10 meters (as an example), lock them down, then blast them with the rest of the raid is something so satisfying to see and is definitely something I want to be able to use as a tool in AoC
4. Interupts (cancel enemy casts) - not much to say about this...
5. CC immunity - tanks are of course going to be the people getting the brunt of enemy attacks, having an ability which gives a small amount of time with cc immunity to either jump in and get a perfect engage, or use it to escape an enemy zerg would be great to see
Finally, one thing that I've seen a lot of in ArcheAge is that tanks (when using their main spec), cannot farm or progress nearly as easily as any other classes. I would love to see this as a non, or at least lesser issue in this game. I genuinely believe that instead of buffing PvE damage numbers or making a tank deal X% as much of a dps is irrelevant, the only way to balance these out is to build a system that means running a well balanced party is the most optimal / efficient method for progressing.
This brings the issue of tank shortage, which MMOs can struggle with (particularly World of Warcraft in dungeons and low difficulty Raids).
Now if you can have more tanks than your usual main tank + 1 or 2 off-tanks (without them being a detriment to your group), in both dungeons and raids, this makes playing a tank role a lot more attractive and also makes it easier for groups to find tanks.
I am mainly talking about the role of the tank here, but since I assume the class "Tank" is the only class that can have the role of a tank, I guess these 2 can be used interchangeably.
One of the major things about Tank roles, is that it really gives that position a sense of Identity. Generally, having a tank role will allow you to make way more player dynamic responses than the developers intend. Crowd control, positioning, even personal identification. Some people love feeling like they can protect others or that THEY can be the savior in this fight. Holding on for dear life til the very end while just barely ticking away at the boss's life.
Off tanking also allows the tank, to get a bit of a break to heal, get ready for new positions, or even partake in other needed mechanics for the fight.
I think it's generally important to have both of these roles in the game, but at the same time implementing a design without the traditional roles could be enough, if it is enough to achieve a good trade off.
I would like to see tanks generally in function (not strictly archetype or class - thanks for the clarification.) I also would like for there to be many situations where more than one tank is valuable or is incentivized (like it lowers the ceiling of difficulty by circumventing part of the mechanics [taunt swap, buffs that are broken up by breaking the teams apart, etc.])
From a healing perspective, I really enjoy healing tanks the most and small scale party healing the most. So, I have a bias to want to see them play a more prominent role in combat generally.
However, how someone fills this role and the fact there's only one tank class is a concern I can't ignore during these pitch. It means that archetypes that include tank hopefully will provide the ability (or something else) for others to fill this role.
Generally though, from a design perspective, I would think people fitting this role would ideally move away from the class especially but archetypes too. How we do this could be also achieved by gear choice or augment choices to a lesser extent. Or, to a lesser extent, augment and gear choice.
The goal should be to make the barrier to entry to be low. However, that degree of commitment (risk) should be rewarded with efficacy (reward.)
SPICING UP MECHANICS AND TIMING - you snooze you loose
- Targeting healers that are high on over healing tanks or certain group members -> making them a target of interest
- Targeting DPS that are often hit by AoE that can be avoided by correct timing or movement, will be targeted more often by the AoE, as most likely they weren't punished enough or the initial damage is too easy to sustain.
- Targeting Caster DPS that are too close to the boss after a movement phase (engage squishy)
- Targeting Squishy Mele DPS that are getting in the Arc of sweep or Infront of the boss whilst they should have been in the bosses back (dealing extra damage)
- Big blows - e.g. ''hulk smash'' by our big buddy the cyclops - off tanks or higher HP / defence geared players need to run in to help ''absorb'' the blow for the tank and squishiest needs to run away from the hit as it could cripple them for X amount of time and make them vulnerable whilst they are also looking like the losers that didn't manage to dodge THE hulk smash.
- Tank/Off tanks moving infront of the boss and blocking by creating a short time shield wall to block a fired ranged attack to prevent raid wide wipe mechanic like stacking debuff or bleeds to all ranged dps that got hit and receive these DOTS.
I think, timing, movement, boss placement and off-tanks / multiple tanks for big bosses should be there as that was the fun part for me playing as a tank.
Make the element of timing critical, the better you can time it - the longer you may DPS, the later the raid moves - the quicker the boss dies, the higher the loot - whilst making it a higher risk if executed poorly.
Of course you shouldn't make timing as important as what Elden Ring did to the Malenia fight, but the whole timing aspect and anticipation of certain abilities makes the PvE content engaging.
If you can master it, you will become the legend or group of legends.
- Healers Timing Heals, Squishy Timing Dodges, Tanks Timing ''Heroic'' Blocks or Absorbs
- Whilst being punished for not paying attention
I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING
On the PVE side
On the PVE side I don't know much so I can't offer much. Personally I just think that since there is only one tank archetype for players to choose from, each subclass option of the tank should offer enough that bringing side tanks could be a valid strategy. Say there is a boss fight with multiple ads, you could get the nightshield to tank the ads who do physical dmg because they have increased dodge while sending the spellshield to tank the spellcasters due to their own utility. (I know the topic said tank class wasn't the subject of the discussion, I am just using it for example). Just enough variation in the classes where bringing multiple tanks of varying classes would benefit the group, instead of one tank being enough and they are always playing tank/tank because that is the best.
I also believe tanks should be able to DPS to a good degree. It doesn't feel great to just be a meatshield who can do no dmg these days. Give the tanks something to do, for example in FFXIV if a tank can do their rotation correctly they can do as much if not more dmg than a DPS for their burst. This can give incentive for tank players to play well on top of taking dmg.
#2
On the side of PVP
Tanks should have a reason to participate in PVP. I don't think tanks should be as good as DPS or better in PVP, else there is no reason to be a DPS because a tank is just the same but with more mitigation. How ever tanks should have the utility that neither tank or healer have in PVP to fulfill a niche that makes them vital to bring them.
Some MMOs just make tanks a meatshield in PVP too, and have little dmg to do anything. This just makes a tank feel like nothing but an objective blocker, and no one has a reason to hit the tank because they wont die and the DPS slowly will. A good example of giving tank utility for PVP can be seem in FFXIV or SWTOR. In FFXIV each tank has either a stun, dmg increase, sheer invulnerability, or pulls to help a team win. They have unique attributes which make bringing a tank to PVP worth while and a benefit to the team, they have a reason to be in the team. As for SWTOR i'm going to use it as an explanation for my next topic.
#3
Give tanks a unique system/minigame
For this example I will talk about the Guard system in SWTOR and how it made tanks unique and needed in ALL contents. My point in this part is to describe how a system of SWTOR made tanks viable for all types of play, and my hope that Ashes can also have this type of mechanic in some form or fashion. I would hate for tanks to be purely good at PVE but they are boring , and when it comes to PVP they can only sit and watch as the caravan dies.
The tank classes in SWTOR have a unique form of threat manipulation and damage mitigation in the form of their taunts and their guard. If a tank guarded a player they would take 50% less damage and generate less threat if within X range of the tank. This lasted forever unless the tank put the guard on another player. And the taunts of a tank would force NPCs to attack the player, but they also had the mechanic where if the taunted target hit another player during the debuff of the taunt, they would deal less damage to the other players hit.
In PVE the benefits where obvious. Bringing two tanks meant you can give two guards to two different players so they would never peel off the aggro. Traditionally this could go on a healer but if you had a DPS who was going to pump serious numbers and generate more aggro than the tank, they could guard the player to halve their aggro generation. Alternatively they could use guard and their taunts during AOE mechanics to limit the damage the raid team took and reduce the load the healers have to take on their shoulders.
In PVP tanks where always in every match or arena and they were always a viable strategy and fun class to play. They had tankiness to always survive, and they didn't have insane damage (until the balance was destroyed by the devs, but not the point). They where the perfect objective players however, because each of the tanks brought enough utility where they could carry the game with well place stuns, pulls, and knockbacks while holding back the enemy. But the guard system was where they thrived and became special. Any time a tank through a guard on an ally, the healers would have enough time to heal the player to full due to the 50% dmg mitigation, but it was also up to the tank to play smart because they took that extra 50% dmg. A tank PVP match would see them guard swapping on any player nearby who would be dying faster than the healers could save them and then taunting the enemy DPS to flat reduce the % of damage dealt. By the end of the match a tank could be just as useful as a healer, and when the numbers where shown a good tank could have prevented more damage than the healer even healed.
#4
In conclusion
My rant about SWTOR tanks was to try and show how a unique mechanic for tanks could dramatically increase tank participation in all forms of content. I know the topic was in regards to PVE encounters but I feel PVP should also be looked at. To often tanks are just a PVE class and even then they are a dull role to play. My hope is that tanks will be more than just meatshields, and there should be enough reason to bring more than one tank because I fear only one tank being needed will just result in the meta tank being brought.
I must ask another question before I can respond to this one. Is Ashes of Creation going to follow the currently prevalent tanking motif in which you absorb damage from enemies and focus on an invisible force or "threat meter"... or are we going to see a lot more interesting and active system where tanks do far more influencing the fight than "managing a threat meter"? My answer to the posed question differs for each I'll explain why.
#1 - Traditional Tanking - Managing Threat
Unless you have "tank-buster" or "tank-swap" mechanics, I don't think you even need an off tank if we're using the "tried and true" threat meter scenario. The reason is that playing as a discount DPS while also failing to be the Tank you were designed to be is immensely frustrating.
Having said that, I definitely see a possibility for off tanks in a more "conventional fashion" in the ashes system. If you ask me, it's just a feature of the way the game is designed. Tank as a secondary class should be used by players if an off tank is required or exists. I am aware that tank as a primary is the only way you will be able to "tank," however I disagree that this should be the only way to "tank".
While it still feels like I'd be a discount DPS or whatever my primary role is, this resolves two issues.
#2 Combat Controller - Active Tanking
This approach, or way of thinking, has to be used in more games, in my opinion. Threat meters and the like are purposely excluded for the most part in D&D and TTRPGs. This overused, incredibly clumsy system needs to be eliminated because it breaks the immersion, among other reasons.
These forum posts on active tanking and how to manage combat without a threat meter contain some pretty great ideas. And I find it absurd that a BFM would single out a certain user just because they shout at it the most.
Being able to protect your comrades in battle or draw attention to yourself is crucial, and this is perhaps why the "tank position" is so named. However, there are countless, hardly explored, better methods to portray this in our medium, being video games.
Getting off the soap box...
I believe that any number of tanks could be deployed depending on the player's preference and the available content if you place less emphasis on "keeping aggro" with a threat meter and more emphasis on preventing allies from suffering damage or eliminating the option for a target to hit anyone other than you through precise control of the area in which combat is taking place.
Maybe I'm really out of touch, and I'm the only one who finds that playstyle enjoyable.
However, I believe that tanks have suffered in the terrible mesh of pve and pvp balance for far too long.
To make it more accessible to more players and for purposes other than just learning my rotation and holding aggro—because I can't make a mistake or everyone dies—the idea of what a tank "IS" has to change.
But until then just give me some more control-like active abilities and shove that threat meter down our throats again...
In conclusion, it is possible to attain and balance both the playstyles of (One main and one off tank) or (Several tanks). But tread lightly if you want it to be significant and interesting.
I'd love to see a game in which your choice of tanks is as flexible and strategic as your choice of healers or dps. In some games, it's not uncommon to debate between an extra healer vs extra dps - I'd like to see this same attitude extend to tanks, which are often instead delegated to two mandatory slots, with no reason to bring more and no option to bring less. I'd like to see encounters in which you stand to benefit from bringing additional tanks, where clever and skilled players can utilise their tools to bring less, and where the mechanics promote a flexible approach to group composition.
With tank as one of the 8 base archetypes, and summoner purportedly having the flexibility to fill any role in the trinity, a balanced group will already have the tools to approach encounters with versatility. Considering only primary archetypes, and assuming an even number of each, an 8 man group would have 1-2 tanks, a 16 man group would have 2-4, and 40 man groups would have 5-10.
This already lends itself to tanks having a greater presence in groups, but the real potential doesn't come to light until you consider secondary archetypes. Players who choose tank as their secondary archetype could be given the tools to perform some functions of a tank, without stepping on the toes of those with a primary tank-role archetype. Even though archetypes don't add new skills, it'd certainly still be possible to give said 'tank secondary' players enhanced mitigation and some threat management (such as limited 'taunts' that allow them to hold aggro and use their tools for a time) as augments of existing skills. This would also add to composition flexibility - it's no secret that tanks are often the least-played role in games that follow the holy trinity, so allowing 'tank secondary' players to perform some limited duties of the role would serve to reduce restrictions in composition.
Between tank-primaries, summoner-primaries, and tank-secondaries, and even with the knowledge that tank is often underrepresented in holy trinity MMOs, there are still myriad tools for groups to handle additional tanking responsibilities beyond that of a typical MT/OT pairing. To make use of these additional tools, there's an element of encounter design that often goes underutilised in other modern MMOs; multi-target encounters and adds. Neither needs to be omnipresent in all encounters, but either (or both) present in a given encounter would serve not only to add some variety in combat, but also variety in the value of different compositions. There are many more potential answers to the question of encouraging multiple tanks, but this is what I find to be the most simple.
In conclusion, I think offering variety in approach and composition is necessary to make the archetype system rewarding, and with tank as its own archetype, it deserves to be valued and considered as much as any other. It'd be discouraging to feel, as a tank, that my archetype is worthless past the second, even in 40-man content. It'd be discouraging to feel, as a summoner, that my flexibility is devalued by the knowledge that I'll never need to tank if we already have two players in that role. And it'd be discouraging to feel that, as *any* primary archetype, taking tank as my secondary archetype is a poor choice, that doesn't benefit my group.
Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?
Why choosing one? You could make both very easy.
How?
No matter how big the Group of Players is 8 or 40, you could make always enough to do for more than one tank.
In a group of 8 you could have two tanks coordinating or one main tank and two off tanks. Two offtanks could do the job of one tank when we talk about ads or so.
The main question i have in mind at this topic is:
What would be the logic of having Tank-spec as your second archetype if you cant offtank with it?
Getting less Damage as a DD or Healer? Why? To compensate for the mistakes of the Tank? Shouldnt plan with that or be the main reason to choose something like that as second archetype. Its easier to get a better tank than speccing the hole group to tank-second.
Or how about getting tank-second archetype for pvp?
Why? Having more mobility or CC is always more effective.
So if you want the players to not ignore the tank as second archetype completely then i think you need something like offtanks. Simply make them weaker tanks but with other abilitys. Some CC, some avoiding of damage, some debuffs, some pets of the summoner who can tank, some healing yourself through your damage and so on....
And then you can combine that with more main tanks in bigger raids, and what you get is an interesting fight with different roles and not just 2 or 3 main tanks who stand around and only have to watch to not stand in the fire.
As for PVP:
I think the most interesting system is one like rock-paper scissors.
How?
Melee should be the one who can kill range-dds easier.
Range DDs need mobility and/or CC to avoid that.
Range DDs should be good in killing Tanks, even when Tanks have good gap-closing and some CC tricks.
And Tanks should be the ones who can kill melees easier. How?
Tanks could do lets say 70% of the damage of a full DD but would only get 50% of the damage of a DD. And with some CC they could get even less. With that the Tanks wouldnt feel useless in pvp as it is often in other MMOs. So everyone has someone to hunt and someone from whom they are hunted.
Healers? Give them 50-70% damage of a DD and some CC. If you are playing better than the DD, you can heal in fight sometimes and win the fight against a DD.
If the DD is better, then he could use his CCs on you in the right moment, an you die.
Tank vs Healer in pvp?
This would work for both if the Tank has more CC than a DD.
DD kills with more Damage and Tank kills slower but with more CC.
Healer kills both with damage as a tank and CC as a DD, but he has the big bonus of healing himself, if he is not interrupted.
So it would be something like that:
Tank: 70% dmg dealt / 100% CC / 50% damage income
DD: 100% dmg dealt / 70% CC / 100% damage income
Healer: 70% dmg dealt / 70% CC / 100% damage income / Heals
As for group pvp i have one idea for the taunt ability:
In pve it is clear what it does. In pvp if you taunt some player, then this player should see some obvious sign from that tank, that he was taunted.
This could make two things:
You deal lets say 20% less damage on other enemies but 20% more damage on that tank for lets say 10 seconds. With that a tank could help his healer in pvp against dds but at the same time the tank has to be carefull because now the dd has a better reason to attack that tank.
This could be described ingame as: "The Tank who taunted you irritates you so that it is more difficult to concentrate on other enemies, but with your anger or rage against this tank you can make more damage on him for a short time."
This mechanic could be used much more with other abilities as a buff/debuff system in pvp.
Room temperature IQ take. Jesus christ. Why on earth would a tank beat a Mage who has 10x more damage or a Ranger who has 3x more movement and should probably be able to kite them to death? I name those just to give an example. A tank should be able to TANK and FRONTLINE. That doesn't mean that automatically Tank should be the best 1 v 1 class. LMAO, how do people vote for such a dumb comment? Dear LORD
I can literally make the same arguement for any class.
Here: A Mage should ACTUALLY DEAL DAMAGE. Under no circumstance a Tank class should be able to kill a Mage 1v1 in PvP because the Mage will always have the far far superior damage with similar gear.
There you go. That's how nonsensical you sound
Tanks are supposed to have amazing damage mitigation skills, allowing them to survive what other classes cannot. That doesn't mean that TANK should beat everything 1 v 1. I don't know why you'd even suggest that.
IMO, Tanks should feel tanky/beefy even with lower gear, because they're playing a Tank. But as a drawback, not much movement and obviously not much damage. Obviously some class combos can make up for the damage or the movement somewhat. That's about it. Tanks SHOULD be required for raids and hopefully more than one Tank at a time.
I have played many other MMO's since my time with World of Warcraft (I quit that MMO after Wrath of the Lich King), and seen the multiple ways that tanks can be played. I have however found my self more in a traditional mind set, as it doesn't cause a lot of confusion.
However, this isn't a typical game. I am curious what you guys can pull out of your bag of tricks. I would like to see this in Alpha 2. I would like to try out these methods more than just discuss it. Who knows maybe I'll like multiple tanks on the field as it will give tanks a better ability to be helpful in a dungeon. However, this would raise more questions like.. How many tanks is to many tanks?
...could form tank walls at castle door breaches and the like. would like the tanks could be mobile and dash in front of squishies and the like to intercept projectiles like fireballs, channeled beams, arrows, etc. abilities to use threat skills on players that reduce damage done by affected targets if not attacking the tank...so only debuffs the players/enemies if they aren't attacking the tank...this negates the instant result of oh, i see a healer, all dps focus them and blow them up in seconds...creates better variables in who is targeted on the battlefield, specially in large group combat....
My biggest worry with being a tank is the reliance on PvP in this game. PvP is an area where tanks are usually underserved mechanically. You can't really taunt enemy players, unless it's a ]debuff. Warhammer Online tried this, but that game was fraught with other issues. Neverwinter also had a taunt-like mechanic that worked on players - modelled slightly on 4th Edition D&D.
I want and expect the subclass to matter in how the tank performs its job. I expect a Tank/Mage (ice augments) to be more crowd control based than pure mitigation. I also expect certain other roles that sub tank to be able to perform the role decently in PvE (a Summoner/Tank should have a decent tank pet, and a Rogue/Tank could be an evasion tank like the Ninja/Warrior is in FF11 and FF14) even if those roles aren't normally primarily Tanks (if it is instead, as many say, is 'just a little bit of survivability' than why bother making that your class? It's dead in the water as a concept unless it is a meaningful choice)
Both depending on the boss or activity as long it is a very active gameplay, what i mean is (even with all the memes) i tanked i all major mmos today and the one i love the most was new world. Yes i loved having to manually block certain skills and even dodge some bigger hits. I loved how the gems added the aggro and taunt mechanics to the skills, and tank shouldnt be only with sword/axe/mace and shield but also two handed weapons. (Obviously with each one having their strenghts and weaknesses)
I will play as tank in this game, i just dont want fall a sleep while tanking. Just ad loadouts for builds and gear a let me viable in PvE and PvP trough CC or buffs and blocking damage to the party and i will be an happy gamer.