Sapiverenus wrote: » I'm not a hardcore escapist, I just prefer reality to video games.
Sapiverenus wrote: » I do not play many games and they do not interest me. Real life is more interesting to me and doing nothing but sitting in my chair is often more interesting to me. If a game can't compete with that then perhaps flat, artificial gimmicks like video games just aren't that appealing! Name one game that isn't a time-wasting gimmick. Big Picture. They can't compete and until there's something interesting about games such as innovative and deep design I won't be playing much of anything or be looking to buy any games. There's no depth.
Sapiverenus wrote: » I saw 8x8x4 classes [scam; boring reskins], weak copy pasted gameplay, a long empty development, complete low effort reliance on UE5 for 'new features' that are just part of the engine, scamstarter, unverified hires. . . and decided to throw my weight into it.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Name one game that isn't a time-wasting gimmick.
Sapiverenus wrote: » I saw 8x8x4 classes [scam; boring reskins], weak copy pasted gameplay, a long empty development, complete low effort reliance on UE5 for 'new features' that are just part of the engine, scamstarter, unverified hires. . . and decided to throw my weight into it. It's the same shit I see coming from the industry all the time. It pissed me off.
poisonz wrote: » simple and sweet.Personal DPS/healing meters - Yes your choice if you're willing to share that info with others because people will find a way to create their own meters. anything that tracks other people's DPS/heals/CC & cooldowns - No
Mag7spy wrote: » poisonz wrote: » simple and sweet.Personal DPS/healing meters - Yes your choice if you're willing to share that info with others because people will find a way to create their own meters. anything that tracks other people's DPS/heals/CC & cooldowns - No The small handful is arguing to track other players and view cds and all effects they do and ones on them. Pretty much anything that happens they want to track it. Community has agreed with the devs not wanting it so a small handful just protest on here every day.
Azherae wrote: » I want the person who is frustrated that this mob SEEMS to always crit them at the worst times, to be able to get the data to confirm that isn't true statistically ...
Azherae wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » Azherae wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » I'm going to avoid feeding the troll and continue on with what I find to be an interesting conversation.... Azherae wrote: » So yes, it's relevant here, but unfortunately games DO give you a few objective concepts of 'merit' that you must personally ignore in order to reach the sort of peace required to not trigger this effect. MMOs are a meritocracy already, particularly PvX ones (no matchmaking, competition for resources). This is another case where the Trackers are a 'tool', to be used by either the 'oppressor' or the 'uplifter', the game itself is creating the meritocratic tilt. I would challenge this a bit. (because I find it an interesting conversation) Sure, I guess the combat provides numbers...but what makes these numbers 'merit'? Is combat/numbers the main thing that matters in an MMO? I would argue not. Most people describe MMOs as social games...leading me to believe that the 'merit' would come more from social interactions. ie: Is this person fun to play with? Do they make me laugh? Do they cheer me up? Do they support me when I need it? etc. I think similarly to what we've discussed about toxicity, can also apply to 'merit'. Each individual has their own definition. I imagine to some players being 'toxic' equates to "low social merit" Agreed, but again bear in mind that the entire premise of this discussion is that Intrepid claims to offer powerful enemies that only the top percentage of players on the server can defeat. Not 'will'. 'Can'. It is required for 'aspiration of those who are less skilled than that'. Intrepid says 'this is a form of merit we wish for players to aspire to'. If they found that 95% of their playerbase never even tried because the game was so fun otherwise that their raiding scene did not matter, I would expect and hope that they would spend less time on that type of PvE content. But for the purposes of the 'Trackers' part of this, the concern is always 'having objective data for one's own build' (could be done without a Tracker by most people) and 'having objective data for performance in a full raid against powerful high-tier enemies (cannot be done without a Tracker by most people without spending up to 3x as long outside of game as in it, GENERALLY). So the meritocracy here that 'is going to be subject to meters' is the high end content. With the suggested method, there's no way that 'random PvE groups just leveling in a dungeon' who don't already have a Guild Tracker for a different reason would ever see use of such a thing. So yes, MMOs are social, but THIS MMO contains high end PvE combat, or supposedly will, and it contains high end group vs group contests, which both lead to meritocratic win/loss situations. If I can kill your character in every fight we have, I might not be fun to play with, I might not make you laugh or cheer you up or offer you anything other than 'an unbeatable opponent'. To overcome that part of it, you would need 'better performance', not 'social skill'. I guess what I really wanted to address was the idea that trackers available to all via the game itself create this "ideal meritocracy". I'm saying that IF that is true...then we should look into the potential negative sides of that "ideal meritocracy" too. I think that article brings up very good arguments around those negatives. The combat 'merits' can totally exist along side the social ones, but should ALL players aspire to that high end PvE content? Or should ALL players aspire to be fun to play with in a social setting/game? I think by making trackers "acceptable" or IS providing their own, pushes the 'merit scale' towards this idea that combat/numbers are the main way to prove you are "good" at this game. With that all said, do I think I know the 'correct' answer to this? No way, but I'd like to think I understand where both sides are coming from. I think this is an interesting way to view this debate with a different perspective. Hm. I can agree with this, actually. I do hope that wouldn't happen. But I can also say that if 'the numbers' seemed meaningful to design in the first place, the game has other problems. So I'll try to pare it down to one concept. "If you have an objective way of determining how well you are doing at the thing you are trying to do, the game is usually more fun. If you allow others or THE GAME ITSELF to dictate 'what thing you should be doing', then that is where your problem lies." Is the person whose personality demands that they are 'in the top percentage of players' for success and happiness, able to achieve this more easily because they have no Tracker available to use for improvement? Is the person whose personality demands that they consistently inform others that they are not average and would definitely overcome a challenge, less likely to claim that others are weaker than them, because they don't have a tracker to measure with?
MrPockets wrote: » Azherae wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » I'm going to avoid feeding the troll and continue on with what I find to be an interesting conversation.... Azherae wrote: » So yes, it's relevant here, but unfortunately games DO give you a few objective concepts of 'merit' that you must personally ignore in order to reach the sort of peace required to not trigger this effect. MMOs are a meritocracy already, particularly PvX ones (no matchmaking, competition for resources). This is another case where the Trackers are a 'tool', to be used by either the 'oppressor' or the 'uplifter', the game itself is creating the meritocratic tilt. I would challenge this a bit. (because I find it an interesting conversation) Sure, I guess the combat provides numbers...but what makes these numbers 'merit'? Is combat/numbers the main thing that matters in an MMO? I would argue not. Most people describe MMOs as social games...leading me to believe that the 'merit' would come more from social interactions. ie: Is this person fun to play with? Do they make me laugh? Do they cheer me up? Do they support me when I need it? etc. I think similarly to what we've discussed about toxicity, can also apply to 'merit'. Each individual has their own definition. I imagine to some players being 'toxic' equates to "low social merit" Agreed, but again bear in mind that the entire premise of this discussion is that Intrepid claims to offer powerful enemies that only the top percentage of players on the server can defeat. Not 'will'. 'Can'. It is required for 'aspiration of those who are less skilled than that'. Intrepid says 'this is a form of merit we wish for players to aspire to'. If they found that 95% of their playerbase never even tried because the game was so fun otherwise that their raiding scene did not matter, I would expect and hope that they would spend less time on that type of PvE content. But for the purposes of the 'Trackers' part of this, the concern is always 'having objective data for one's own build' (could be done without a Tracker by most people) and 'having objective data for performance in a full raid against powerful high-tier enemies (cannot be done without a Tracker by most people without spending up to 3x as long outside of game as in it, GENERALLY). So the meritocracy here that 'is going to be subject to meters' is the high end content. With the suggested method, there's no way that 'random PvE groups just leveling in a dungeon' who don't already have a Guild Tracker for a different reason would ever see use of such a thing. So yes, MMOs are social, but THIS MMO contains high end PvE combat, or supposedly will, and it contains high end group vs group contests, which both lead to meritocratic win/loss situations. If I can kill your character in every fight we have, I might not be fun to play with, I might not make you laugh or cheer you up or offer you anything other than 'an unbeatable opponent'. To overcome that part of it, you would need 'better performance', not 'social skill'. I guess what I really wanted to address was the idea that trackers available to all via the game itself create this "ideal meritocracy". I'm saying that IF that is true...then we should look into the potential negative sides of that "ideal meritocracy" too. I think that article brings up very good arguments around those negatives. The combat 'merits' can totally exist along side the social ones, but should ALL players aspire to that high end PvE content? Or should ALL players aspire to be fun to play with in a social setting/game? I think by making trackers "acceptable" or IS providing their own, pushes the 'merit scale' towards this idea that combat/numbers are the main way to prove you are "good" at this game. With that all said, do I think I know the 'correct' answer to this? No way, but I'd like to think I understand where both sides are coming from. I think this is an interesting way to view this debate with a different perspective.
Azherae wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » I'm going to avoid feeding the troll and continue on with what I find to be an interesting conversation.... Azherae wrote: » So yes, it's relevant here, but unfortunately games DO give you a few objective concepts of 'merit' that you must personally ignore in order to reach the sort of peace required to not trigger this effect. MMOs are a meritocracy already, particularly PvX ones (no matchmaking, competition for resources). This is another case where the Trackers are a 'tool', to be used by either the 'oppressor' or the 'uplifter', the game itself is creating the meritocratic tilt. I would challenge this a bit. (because I find it an interesting conversation) Sure, I guess the combat provides numbers...but what makes these numbers 'merit'? Is combat/numbers the main thing that matters in an MMO? I would argue not. Most people describe MMOs as social games...leading me to believe that the 'merit' would come more from social interactions. ie: Is this person fun to play with? Do they make me laugh? Do they cheer me up? Do they support me when I need it? etc. I think similarly to what we've discussed about toxicity, can also apply to 'merit'. Each individual has their own definition. I imagine to some players being 'toxic' equates to "low social merit" Agreed, but again bear in mind that the entire premise of this discussion is that Intrepid claims to offer powerful enemies that only the top percentage of players on the server can defeat. Not 'will'. 'Can'. It is required for 'aspiration of those who are less skilled than that'. Intrepid says 'this is a form of merit we wish for players to aspire to'. If they found that 95% of their playerbase never even tried because the game was so fun otherwise that their raiding scene did not matter, I would expect and hope that they would spend less time on that type of PvE content. But for the purposes of the 'Trackers' part of this, the concern is always 'having objective data for one's own build' (could be done without a Tracker by most people) and 'having objective data for performance in a full raid against powerful high-tier enemies (cannot be done without a Tracker by most people without spending up to 3x as long outside of game as in it, GENERALLY). So the meritocracy here that 'is going to be subject to meters' is the high end content. With the suggested method, there's no way that 'random PvE groups just leveling in a dungeon' who don't already have a Guild Tracker for a different reason would ever see use of such a thing. So yes, MMOs are social, but THIS MMO contains high end PvE combat, or supposedly will, and it contains high end group vs group contests, which both lead to meritocratic win/loss situations. If I can kill your character in every fight we have, I might not be fun to play with, I might not make you laugh or cheer you up or offer you anything other than 'an unbeatable opponent'. To overcome that part of it, you would need 'better performance', not 'social skill'.
MrPockets wrote: » I'm going to avoid feeding the troll and continue on with what I find to be an interesting conversation.... Azherae wrote: » So yes, it's relevant here, but unfortunately games DO give you a few objective concepts of 'merit' that you must personally ignore in order to reach the sort of peace required to not trigger this effect. MMOs are a meritocracy already, particularly PvX ones (no matchmaking, competition for resources). This is another case where the Trackers are a 'tool', to be used by either the 'oppressor' or the 'uplifter', the game itself is creating the meritocratic tilt. I would challenge this a bit. (because I find it an interesting conversation) Sure, I guess the combat provides numbers...but what makes these numbers 'merit'? Is combat/numbers the main thing that matters in an MMO? I would argue not. Most people describe MMOs as social games...leading me to believe that the 'merit' would come more from social interactions. ie: Is this person fun to play with? Do they make me laugh? Do they cheer me up? Do they support me when I need it? etc. I think similarly to what we've discussed about toxicity, can also apply to 'merit'. Each individual has their own definition. I imagine to some players being 'toxic' equates to "low social merit"
Azherae wrote: » So yes, it's relevant here, but unfortunately games DO give you a few objective concepts of 'merit' that you must personally ignore in order to reach the sort of peace required to not trigger this effect. MMOs are a meritocracy already, particularly PvX ones (no matchmaking, competition for resources). This is another case where the Trackers are a 'tool', to be used by either the 'oppressor' or the 'uplifter', the game itself is creating the meritocratic tilt.
Sapiverenus wrote: » "name one entertainment. . ." Working out
Video game genres aren't real
How about adding Guitaroo mechanic for Lute/Strum Bard --> you move the joystick and hit the strum button and you play the song and do something impactful. That appeals to a different audience and there are 7 other Archetypes to play.
I guess what makes the most sense is that you want a game that only suits yourself and people a lot like you.
I do not play many games and they do not interest me.
doing nothing but sitting in my chair is often more interesting to me.
Noaani wrote: » poisonz wrote: » simple and sweet.Personal DPS/healing meters - Yes your choice if you're willing to share that info with others because people will find a way to create their own meters. anything that tracks other people's DPS/heals/CC & cooldowns - No @poisonz I missed this post. I actually agree with you in principle that if a player doesnt want others to track them, they should be in a position to prevent that from happening. The only real difference between what you are saying here and my suggestion for guild trackers is that my suggestion has shifted the point of agreeing to share tracker information from "at will" as I assume your suggestion would have it, to when joining a guild. My suggestion also limits who you can share that info with to only those in your guild. The reason for this is simple. It prevents people requiring tracker info be shared in order to be bought along on content - something we all know some people would require. If it is simply not within the ability of players in pick up groups to share that information, then no one will be able to even ask for it. The reason i set this to the guild level is twofold. First, you shouldnt be joining a guild with people you would want to hide this information from. Second, if you are someone that simply doesnt want trackers used on you, it is very likely that you will join a guild of like minded people. Since the tracker should be an optional guild perk, this would mean your guild doesnt pick it. If your guild doesnt pick it, no one can use a tracker on you, nor can anyone ever ask you for that data. Some people (Mag, specifically) have completely mischaracterized what it is we are asking for. Or perhaps they have simply confused what it is we are asking for with what it is we have (currently, we have the same combat tracker regime as found in any other MMO). I'm curious as to 6our thoughts on the above.
Certain legendary items may be limited to one per server at any given time.[7][8]
Strevi wrote: » I think the tracker should be a node achievement granted to all citizens of a node and stored in the node Reliquary. Guilds exist in all MMOs. AoC wants to brink people together with the citizenship concept more than with the guild one. Guilds may compete and fight wars within the same node too but citizens participating in raids together grant benefits to the node itself. Then citizens will be grateful for that guild or group for going to such raid events and unlocking the feature which might be useful after all in less extreme PvE encounters too. If a tracker is added into the game, I will oppose to allow settings where players could reduce it's use by those who got this benefit.
Aerlana wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I think the tracker should be a node achievement granted to all citizens of a node and stored in the node Reliquary. Guilds exist in all MMOs. AoC wants to brink people together with the citizenship concept more than with the guild one. Guilds may compete and fight wars within the same node too but citizens participating in raids together grant benefits to the node itself. Then citizens will be grateful for that guild or group for going to such raid events and unlocking the feature which might be useful after all in less extreme PvE encounters too. If a tracker is added into the game, I will oppose to allow settings where players could reduce it's use by those who got this benefit. The problem with tracker "for all" (which is close to what your idea is) is for people who don't want it, and don't want to be "tracked" (and don't do content where they have to prove their efficiency for sure) I always had a really huge problem with FFlogs including datas from people who where in the team with a guy parsing fights, and then uploading them. Sure, an ingame tracker would have no or limited way to have datas uploaded to a site, making it less bad. Even when i helped friend with their DPS, using tracker to get information needed to see different problem, give advice, or explain, i first was clear i would use the tracker. For me, those informations are part of "privacy"
