Data is accessible through experience. You can play a fighting game and figure out the windows/ animations to minute degree, for example. Down to the frame. So there is a huge skill gap between those that can gain 'data' from experience and those that can't. You can gain data from inputting a certain way, failing, then slightly altering what you're doing and getting through it. You can deduce that some window is smaller or larger, or something lasts longer, all from experience. There's many ways to solve problems and gain knowledge from experience lol. . . and it creates a skill gap. It's not intellectually dull either. You can literally compare your experiences, actions, and analyze them.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus Data is accessible through experience. You can play a fighting game and figure out the windows/ animations to minute degree, for example. Down to the frame. So there is a huge skill gap between those that can gain 'data' from experience and those that can't. You can gain data from inputting a certain way, failing, then slightly altering what you're doing and getting through it. You can deduce that some window is smaller or larger, or something lasts longer, all from experience. There's many ways to solve problems and gain knowledge from experience lol. . . and it creates a skill gap. It's not intellectually dull either. You can literally compare your experiences, actions, and analyze them. I understand and agree this can be done to a certain degree- Maybe I am just missing something, but how would you be able to get conclusive data if you have no baseline or reference point? There could always be variation on the opponent's end that can throw off your judgement, such as when the action was inputed. Since there is no way to know that, it would give you false info that you base your own moves on, so you would never have a way of figuring that out through experience 100%.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus I get it, obviously you can use the results of an interaction between two moves to deduce the properties of a move. Im saying that for the comparison to be legitimate you have to isolate those 2 moves as factors. How can you do that when there is variation, down a single frame, for when someone is inputing a move. You may be comparing moves that were input at different times, giving you wrong info. Yes you can get a general idea based on the timing of when you would expect someone to input a move and comparing that timing of how long it takes for your own moves to respond after an input. This will never be a consistent way of judging down to a single frame. Its just impossible for most humans to distinguish between individual frames through feeling.
Neurath wrote: » I haven't seen any combat in Ashes which requires frame to frame fighting. There's no synergies, no directional attacks and no active block last I saw. There certainly is no complexity in anything shown so far. Even the pve bosses have been tank and spank.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus So basically I am saying 1. You can judge a moves properties based on its interaction with another move. 2. There are more factors than just the move itself that can throw off your judgement based on that interaction, because the interaction will be different depending on those factors, causing variation in your relativity-based judgments 3. The lack of knowing "when" an input was made is such a factor, causing an unequal comparison 4. If you could reverse engineer each move by testing your input vs when it happens in the screen for a given move, then that would help with isolating the moves themselves, by knkwing when a move is inputed to make your comparison between 2 moves during an interaction. 5. There is no way to do this down to a single frame. You can click an input and see when your move happens on the screen to get a general idea of that window, but this would require more precision than the example video you provided to "feel" this window. Thats not to mention the fact that you wouldn't be able to further disect that window to distinguish between input delay/move startup frames/etc. 6. This means you wouldn't be able to reverse engineer a move to know exactly how many frames it takes for a move to startup, therefor you would never know when a move was actually inputed whem comparing 2 moves during an interaction. Therefore any info gained based on said interaction will have variation relative to when that move was inputed, meaning you won't have consistent relative results to judge your own move's properties. Unless I am missing something, feel free to explain how this would not be the case.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus Fair enough. For that particular premise I could agree then that perceptive skill could be better fostered without the data. But, I can't automatically say im in favor of having a greater reward for those who have naturally better perceptive capabilities, than those who don't, because of the implications that the other types of game skills are reliant upon those perceptive capabilities, that not all people may have. The lack of perceptive skill in that area could deny access to information certain players who could better leverage that information than someone else, but be denied that skill-expression due to the difference in perceptive abilities. My personal preference for skill-checks, is in player decision-making. Based on this I can't say I would want the skill-check on perceptive ability to be so large that only a very small percentage of players could properly be tested on their decision making skills, which I personally would prefer to have at the forefront. This is preference so im not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree. - regardless of how we feel about that particular aspect- whether that particular premise alone, in favor of providing players with data, is enough to outweigh the others outlined ealier, is another issue.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. I do think perceptive skill, especially situational awareness, should be rewarded. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read. That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read. That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game. I don't know what other areas of the game you're referring to. Combat moves are combat moves. Not even fighting games require frame perfect inputs or have single frame windows.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus We were talking about how data helps further reward good decision making skill. Then about how people should be tested in gathering such data. You suggested it should be a perceptive skill-test. I said that if this were the case it would be a barrier to entry for those that could potentially have better decision making skills, because of the denial of data access. The data is used to make better decsions, which i what i was referring to by "other areas of the game" as in, other skill-checks that the data usage is intertwined with. You can have both perceptive skill-checks and decsion making skill-checks, without having to water down the decision making aspect when you make certain decision making related factors tied to perceptive skill (such as data acquisition).
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus I was expecting that response and had a thought on that myself that I edited in, but you had already responded. I added this portion if youd like to go re-read. That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game. I don't know what other areas of the game you're referring to. Combat moves are combat moves. Not even fighting games require frame perfect inputs or have single frame windows. I don't know if anyone actually needs to hear this, but this is, of course, not true. They've recently put a lot of work into reducing the number of these required to play effectively, but they're still there. I expect to see more of them in Ashes, though.
If a player can't fight and doesn't understand combat then they're not fit to lead combat. Simple as that.
Just ask people you're working with and practice with them.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus Just ask people you're working with and practice with them. Good point. I tend to be more self-reliant, but the social aspect is an important part of an mmo. I can tend to have trust issues when relying on other people's input though.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus Just ask people you're working with and practice with them. Good point. I tend to be more self-reliant, but the social aspect is an important part of an mmo. I can tend to have trust issues when relying on other people's input though. When someone says something seems to work a certain way it's easier to look for and ask others about though.
